Is there a denomination that accepts theistic evolution/old earth?

bekkilyn

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You're right. I messed that up.

What was said by another was that anyone who doesn't believe in the super-literal interpretation of the Biblical account of Creation is, ipso facto, a liberal. That's ridiculous. But I assume that he must also imagine that anyone who does is automatically a conservative. That's equally silly.

The bottom line to this is that most Christian churches do not interpret that part of Scripture as he does, and many or most of them are, by any serious standard, conservative churches.

Albion, don't you know that's how EVERYONE becomes a liberal? Sorry bud, you're in the liberal camp now. Here, have some hot chocolate while you wait for our next inclusive group hug moment.
 
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solid_core

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Albion, don't you know that's how EVERYONE becomes a liberal? Sorry bud, you're in the liberal camp now. Here, have some hot chocolate while you wait for our next inclusive group hug moment.
You probably redefined the word "liberal".

For example, roman catholic church accepted heliocentrism, evolution, big bang and old earth but still it is a conservative church in every common meaning of the word - patriarchal, against homosexual marriages, against abortions, they do not allow women to be priests, do not allow divorces etc.

In the same time, many pentecostal and "independent" churches that are literal in their reading of Genesis have women as leaders, allow divorces and remarriages and do not care about any traditional standards.
 
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Albion

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Albion, don't you know that's how EVERYONE becomes a liberal? Sorry bud, you're in the liberal camp now. Here, have some hot chocolate while you wait for our next inclusive group hug moment.
Be sure to read the post by 'solid_core.' If I failed to make my point well enough, he didn't.
 
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It depends more on whether you think "day" means 12 hours and that only. It's not as though anyone involved in this eternal debate--the majority of churches or the Baptistic ones--doubts God. :doh:
I just take what the Genesis account says. It does not explain how it was done, and I abide by Proverbs 30:6:
"Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar."

Therefore I am just a bit reluctant to give any substantive theory on how He did it, because it would seem like I am adding my theory to the Genesis record, and risk the consequences that are shown in the Proverbs verse.

Although I am not backward in coming forward to assert that God is quite capable of creating the universe and our world in six days as I have already said, and I think you would agree. :)
 
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klutedavid

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I can't be young earth, Genesis 1 seems like a "this is a gist of it but I'm not telling you specifics" overview of creation rather than a step by step instruction, allowing for what has been scientifically discovered about the nature of the universe and its age to hold true while still being God's very good creation. I see ongoing geological, cosmological, and biological processes that take very long times to do anything and it only makes absolute sense that those processes have been going on for a very long time, canyons are still being dug by rivers inch by inch, Niagra falls recedes its bank inch by inch over the years. There have been cataclysms such as global flood but there have also been slow processes that continue to go on every day, I have witnessed microevolution in laboratory settings. So there's only so much you can do believing in young earth creationism, and not just blind yourself to everything around you that says the universe is older than 6000 years. You either have to believe that Satan created the evidence (where in scripture has Satan ever been able to create anything?), or believe that God created things to appear older than they really are which seems like, deception. Why create things that would intentionally trick people? God doesn't lie or deceive!
So I can't be a young earth creationist, which puts me at odds with most pastors in most denominations of Christianity.
I believe in Old Earth. I still believe God created it, but I believe he did so using processes we still see at work today. I am not sure if I full blown believe in theistic macroevolution or progressive creationism (God creating things according to "kinds" in waves, which is more consistent with the fossil record, and microevolution being a tool within the genetic code that God created as a blueprint for all life). But microevolution I can't ignore at all. I can't just pretend that DNA just doesn't exist and we're all just scooped up dirt breathed upon by God. In Genesis 2 God even describes anesthesia and surgery to remove one of Adam's ribs (as a source of bone marrow and stem cells) to make Eve (Genesis 2:21-23). Which had always confused me as to why Genesis 2 didn't have God just speaking Eve into existence, but then I learned about stem cells present in bone marrow and the ribs are a flat bone which is one of your main sources of hematopoiesis, it suddenly made perfect sense, God GREW Eve from stem cells from Adam's bone marrow.
Is there any denominations that support old earth and either theistic evolution or progressive creationism?
If you look at the fossil record you will observe that all species appear suddenly in the fossil record. The transitional forms that preceded any specific species, are not recorded, are not observable in the fossil record.

If you read the Genesis account you will also notice that species appear suddenly in the Genesis account.

Both explanations of life wave the magic wand.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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It's ironic you would say this. One of the recurring realizations of my Christian walk has been how very, very small and anthropomorphic (i.e., manmade) the God of extreme Bible literalists is. This is true of Flat Earthers, Young Earth Christians and, indeed, almost the entire evangelical community in the U.S. These folks attempt to live their lives in a cognitively dissonant straitjacket, worshipping the little idol they have erected in their imaginations.

To the OP's question: As others have pointed out, Young Earth Creationism is a tiny minority position, is "required" for belief only among the far fringe of evangelical Christianity, and is certainly not an essential of the faith. I was with Campus Crusade, attended a Southern Baptist seminary, and for many years attended Southern Baptist churches. In that time, I heard precisely one person (a Campus Crusade staff member) assert the Young Earth position. Even though I was then a newbie, my jaw dropped. The notion that Young Earth Creationism is some sort of Christian essential is a very recent phenomenon.

It is my position that no one actually believes Young Earth Creationism any more than they believe the Earth is flat. These are "pretend beliefs" that people spout because they are under the mistaken impression that at least pretending to believe them is essential to being a "real" Christian.
As you can read in my other posts on this forum, the Genesis record states that God created the universe and this world in six days. There is nothing to say how He did it, and so to try to say He didn't is saying that He is a liar, because the Scripture says that every word of God (ie: the written Scriptures) is inspired of God. And to try and add explanations about how He did it is adding to what is in the record, and there are prohibitions about adding to God's Word.

So, basically, it comes down to whether you believe the Genesis record or not. If you don't believe Genesis 1 is God's inspired Word, then you have to say that the rest of Genesis is the same. This means that you don't believe in the account of Adam and Eve and the Fall, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph. If you believe that these are myths, then you are at odds with Jesus, because He believed implicitly that it was all absolutely true and historical.
 
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hedrick

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However also, I didn't mean to quibble over statistics or count noses; it's just wrong to think that everyone on Side A of this issue is defined by this one issue as liberal, making everybody who disagrees necessarily be a conservative.
I agree. But there's a certain set of beliefs that are typical of conservatives and liberals. Many (most?) people are hybrids, so by no means is the correlation complete. Pew Forum is pretty good data on combinations. E.g. this page on views of Christians on homosexuality shows how it is combined with various other things. Views about homosexuality among Christians - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics They have similar pages for other issues. People who think homosexuality should be accepted typically accept evolution and those who don't, don't. But there plenty of exceptions. Still I think it's fair to say that "conservative" refers to a combination of views that involves rejecting both.
 
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hedrick

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For example, roman catholic church accepted heliocentrism, evolution, big bang and old earth but still it is a conservative church in every common meaning of the word - patriarchal, against homosexual marriages, against abortions, they do not allow women to be priests, do not allow divorces etc.
The Catholic Church has a problem that's kind of specific to them: because they claim they are inerrant, they can't change key beliefs too obviously. But in 1st world countries Catholics often believe women should be priests (definite majority), that same-sex marriage should be accepted (substantial majority, though it seems to be about legal marriage not recognition by the Church), and that abortion should be legal (razor-thin plurality). History suggests that official beliefs will slowly be reinterpreted to agree.

I can't comment on Catholic views in 3rd world countries. In a quick search I didn't find data.

Expectations of the Catholic Church
Views about same-sex marriage among Catholics - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics
Views about abortion among Catholics - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics
 
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Jamdoc

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Respectfully, I think you’re quite wrong. There is no mention of animals consuming animals or death or decay before the fall. Genesis is a short account, but the sum of Scriptures points to that there was neither death nor decay before the fall. We can see this clearly echoed in the new creation as well, which is God’s creation restored.

Again, we can’t force the framework of natural law as we know and experience it in our time on nature before the fall.

Anyway, I don’t want to derail the thread so I’ll leave it at this.
I think the key words you need to think about in your own statement is "there is no mention"
The bible is not meant to be a play by play of every action that took place since the world's beginning.
Otherwise, where did Cain's wife come from? Because Genesis only mentions Cain and Able, followed by Seth, but suddenly, in exile, Cain has a wife and founds his own nation.
If you want to take that literal of an approach, then Cain's wife came from nowhere, she was not begat by Eve or anyone else, and God didn't individually create her anywhere in the story. She's just there. ALL interpretations of the bible require you to read between the lines because so much of it is condensed.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Because 'six days' is not necessarily at absolute statement meaning 144 hour period as we understand time. No one here has convinced me logically of an absolutist young Earth theory, not even remotely.

let the Bible convince you then

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Genesis 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Matthew 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
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His student

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Not sure what you mean by "entering the good creation". Entering from where, from some "evil creation"?
In Genesis one God pronounced the physical creation good.

Obviously there was a spirit world that came before that from which Satan came to tempt the man in the garden.

Do you not believe that?
Yes, moral evil - sin and spiritual death - entered humanity when the humanity got God's law and disobeyed it. Its not related to physical evolution or physical death before sin in any theologically important way.
God's banning of man from the garden with the tree of life and setting a guard there would seem to disagree with physical death having nothing to do with sin.
The point is that evolution/mutations do not require suffering, death and pain. Actually, the point of evolution is the opposite one - to survive, to be healthy and to have healthy offspring and to not experience pain.
If man was created in the image of God and pronounced good there is no room for evolving further - only a degrading of that altogether good state after sin came into this world.

Look - if you folks feel that you somehow need to accommodate evolution - God ahead. Your salvation probably isn't effected by your beliefs or lack of faith and I hope to see you on the other side of this life.

But we are told not to be conformed to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of our mind to align with all that God tells us. What you are doing is refusing to conform your thinking to what God tells us. Instead - you are twisting the Word of God to align with what the world tells you to believe.

God ahead with that as you wish. But what you are doing is simply theological liberalism run amuck and denying many of the most basic tenets of the faith.

Again - I hope to see you on the other side in spite of your liberal theology.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Adding to God's Word like that is very dangerous.

There is no reason to suspect I added anything to God's Word. I obviuosly am just explaining something - a fact that has been definintively proven beyond doubt.
 
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JohnAshton

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That's nice, but you moved from the concept of TIME to CREATION.

Your quotes do not lead one to the concept of a Young Earth.

let the Bible convince you then

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Genesis 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Matthew 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't believe that's true.

Yes there are many denominations that support old earth and even progressive creationism (even conservative ones).

There are several interpretations that can allow for that. The gap theory before the reforming of earth and long day ages can both allow for that.

But the OP specifically included theistic evolution and therein lies the difference between conservative views on these things and liberal views.

Evil entered God's good creation through the sin of the one man Adam. It will be eradicated through the obedience of the one man Jesus Christ.

No first Adam = no second Adam. No fall of man = no redemption of man.

Death, pain and suffering entered the world through sin. Death, pain and suffering are the basic building blocks of evolution.

Simply adding the word "theistic" to the theory of evolution does not change that fact. In fact it makes God the author of death, pain and suffering - i.e. sin and evil.

There is a world of difference between a Christian accommodating what the scientists tell us about age in nature and accommodating evil death, pain and suffering in the method of creating man in His own image.

A Christian may well call himself conservative on paper. But when it comes to so called "theistic" evolution the truth comes out IMO.

That person is a liberal in his theology - and that's putting it charitably.
I think you have a very uneducated view of what evolution is or what its basis is.
Evolution is mostly just a fancy term for applied genetics across multiple generations.
To put it very simply, first there's a mutation to a gene or two, say simply, brown eyes or blue eyes, and blue eyed people only select for other blue eyed people for spouses and have children with them, almost the entire population will be blue eyed (there's under a 1% chance for 2 blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed child because the eye color is caused by 2 genes, a pigment gene and a gene that codes for a transport protein that moves the pigment to the iris, the genes are close together so having them split during meiosis to where a parent gets a functional pigment gene but not functional transport protein gene is very rare, having 1 parent having a functional pigment and mutated transport protein gene, and the other having a functional transport protein but mutated pigment, and each passing down those specific functional genes to make a complete set is very rare). Right there is an example of microevolution, genetic change within a species.
It's impossible to understand genetics, without understanding at the very least, microevolution.
Macroevolution is that same concept multiplied by multiple non deleterious mutations or genetic modifications, across multiple generations so that all these new traits within the species add up to a point where they're no longer able to breed with the species they originally were, forming a new species. The difference between theistic evolution and atheistic evolutionists is what is the source of these genetic modifications, and how long does it take to get from one species to another.
An atheistic evolutionist will claim that radiation causes the mutations, but almost all of those mutations are incompatible with life, radiation damages cell DNA causing errors in replication that eventually stack up and the cell dies. There would also be a lot of transitional species in the fossil record that just don't exist, and you would also need large enough populations of these new mutations for breeding and creating a subpopulation which then gets geographically separated and inbreeds to propagate the mutations to a point where the species become incompatible. That's where you see the hand of God at work because the fossil record doesn't have these long transitions, you just suddenly see different species, so the macroevolution that does take place takes place much faster and more deliberately than chance would allow. HOWEVER, with our own gene editing you CAN walk back traits. Scientists created a chicken that has a toothy snout rather than a beak, simply by doing a "knockout" of a cluster of genes within chicken DNA that pertain to facial structure. New genes were not added in, just the genes that were there were prevented from being expressed. The result, the bird didn't grow a beak, it grew a snout, with teeth, like mammals and reptiles. Whether it was ethical or not to do this was beside the point, but the result is, evidence that birds were once more reptile like. You can see more rapid change than naturalists would see as being possible, and you can see that all life is based on the same code, and related to each other.
Whether you term it as theistic evolution or progressive creationism is somewhat semantics though with theistic evolution its more along the line of the very slow changes that naturalists believe in taking place random, just not being random, being intelligently designed, while progressive creationism is more rapid but in stages, and for some people that are progressive creationists they still believe it was magic just poof there it is, rather than life grown from previous life, with modification. I believe that God modified life from other life to create new species as He desired. Random mutation on the other hand, is the manifestation of death that you're talking about. When God modifies, He does not create modifications incompatible with life, they're deliberate, with purpose, to fill a niche.
 
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Jamdoc

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If you look at the fossil record you will observe that all species appear suddenly in the fossil record. The transitional forms that preceded any specific species, are not recorded, are not observable in the fossil record.

If you read the Genesis account you will also notice that species appear suddenly in the Genesis account.

Both explanations of life wave the magic wand.
Progressive creationism is the one that's compatible with that, however it'd be a progressive creationism variant of evolution that would be closest to where I believe is the "how did He do it". If it was just magic speaking things into existence, then why is all life genetically related to each other? What would be the purpose of that? It allows for us to do genetic engineering which is potentially very very dangerous and evil for us to do, while serving no purpose if speciation was just being spoken into existence. It allows for the possibility of cross species organ transplantation, frankenstein monsters and chimeras. Abominations we should not be tampering with. An evolutionary method to creation gives that shared code a purpose, a reason for it to exist beyond God saying "Here's a code you can use to tamper with all the life I created, go ahead fools, create abominations that end up killing you and condemning you."
 
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His student

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I believe that God modified life from other life to create new species as He desired.
That was a very interesting post and a very scholarly one.

But how does that apply to what we see in the book of Genesis? There we see animals created directly by God's Word and particularly with man (the only subject we really care about for our discussion here) directly from dirt with no corresponding mate until it was created directly from an asexual part of his body and not through procreation.

Again- a very good presentation of micro evolution with some very fanciful but supposedly possible relationship to macro evolution orchestrated by God.

But in no way aligned with the clear teaching of the scriptures.

And that isn't even considering the obvious relationship that these generations of people invented in theistic evolution have to death.

If you feel that you simply have to compromise the clear teaching of God's Word to the education that was afforded to you from the world - go for it.

I simply believe the clear teaching of the scriptures.
 
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Jamdoc

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That was a very interesting post and a very scholarly one.

But how does that apply to what we see in the book of Genesis? There we see animals created directly by God's Word and particularly with man (the only subject we really care about for our discussion here) directly from dirt with no corresponding mate until it was created directly from an asexual part of his body and not through procreation.

Again- a very good presentation of micro evolution with some very fanciful but supposedly possible relationship to macro evolution orchestrated by God.

But in no way aligned with the clear teaching of the scriptures.

And that isn't even considering the obvious relationship that these generations of people invented in theistic evolution have to death.

If you feel that you simply have to compromise the clear teaching of God's Word to the education that was afforded to you from the world - go for it.

I simply believe the clear teaching of the scriptures.
Scripture is missing details. Science fills in those details, is how I see it. When we talk about God speaking things into existence, there's 2 ways to look at it. Either it's 100% complete and explicit with no condensation and no omissions and no missing details, just God speaks, and like magic something appears.
The other way to look at it is God speaks his intent, then shows the result. The process that took place in the middle is omitted. I can actually point to Genesis 1 for why I follow this line of thinking. First off, even in a literal 6 24 hour days creation as we measure OUR time, speaking and instantly creating is, instant, yet God does things over the period of hours, even though he just spoke his voice and the very next line was the result. What did he do for the other 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 50 seconds? The process even under a 6 man days creation is more involved than speaking, or there's a lot of "downtime" in God's work. To expand on that, (Genesis 1:6-7). Here there's explicit language that separates the act of speaking, from the act of creating. God speaks his intent, then actively creates something, without details into the how, the how is not the speaking. He does this again in Genesis 1:15-16, separate verses for speaking His intent, then following through with an action that does not say how it was done, just God created. Genesis 1:20-21, again. Genesis 1 is not at all consistent with God just speaking things into existence, some of the verses seem as if He does speak them into being manifested, but others separate the act of speaking from the act of creating. So I find it quite possible that what God was telling Moses in this abridged history, was a condensed version missing the "how" details, probably intentionally, because that sort of knowledge can harm us if we use it against God's will. However, we're not forbidden from trying to learn on our own (Proverbs 25:2), (Psalms 111:2). I love that proverb btw, because it explicitly says God does not tell us every little detail.
My favorite proverb is also along the subject. Proverbs 14:15 that gives you something to think about, instead of just reading and nodding your head, you think about what's written, and what isn't written, and what's written somewhere else that was omitted in another place where it would logically take place, and realize, that not everything that isn't written, doesn't mean that it didn't happen, such as Cain's wife.
 
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