Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

thomas_t said:

Can we stop here?

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OK, as your intransigent attitude precludes any changes to your beliefs.
The fact that only those who believe in God and who accept Jesus now, are His faithful people and everybody else, incl the apostate Jews, are His enemies, is unacceptable to you; believing as you do that the will be a general Jewish redemption. Something that is NOT prophesied.

Soon, the Lord will take action against His enemies and those who love His Name will live in all of the Holy Land. Psalms 69:32-36
Great will be the Day!

thomas_t said:

Jesus was sent to Israel, the Apostles to all the world.

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Good point.

keras said:

The fact that only those who believe in God and who accept Jesus now, are His faithful people

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But that does not turn them into Israel or Jews.

There has to be one generation of Jews who will turn to Jesus - to say
blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

keras said:

believing as you do that the will be a general Jewish redemption. Something that is NOT prophesied.

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It is in Revelation 12, in the middle of the 7 years, that there occurs a general Jewish redemption.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

thomas_t said:

Verse 23 is in future tense. You're implying that this happened already, and normal Jews don't belong to Israel as of today. I don't agree.

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What do you mean by Normal Jews?

thomas_t said:

No it doesn't, these 3000 were all Israelites.... but not all Israel. Big difference.

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Why Not... what is the "Big difference"?

In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4) and the rest were excommunicated out of the Covenant forever. That faithful remnant at that time constituted ALL Israel, and from that time forward ONLY the descendants of those 7000 were Gods Covenanted Israel. The rest, again, were cut off forever.

So... why is it you'll accept 7000 as not too small to be All Israel but not 3000 (even though we know Faithful Israel in the 1st century numbered far greater than 3000)

Again, Whats the difference?

thomas_t said:

I don't agree. The church didn't begin until Christ was there. All else would be anachronistic, in my opinion.
Faithful remnants have never been labelled church (ekklesia in Greek). It's your invention, I guess.

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Demonstrably untrue.
You really are making this too easy.
Acts 7:38 refutes and corrects both of these assertions.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sin, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Church here is indeed the Greek word ekklesia, Strongs #1577.

Please friend, if you are going to level accusations against me that I am inventing anything, and that what I am claiming can not be found taught in the pages of Holy Scripture, do a little homework first, and try not to make your accusations so easily refutable with just one click.

One thing I found in my almost 20 years of posting on Christian Forums, is that our readers are smart, and they will test your claims against scripture, so you'd better do your homework.

parousia70 said:

the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel,

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Hi Parousia,
this was what you've said. This was the reason why I said you were inventing.
Now you come up with the church of the wilderness of Acts 7:38. I must admit, the word "ekklesia"= church figures in there. However, this church wasn't a remnant of Israelis. It was them all. Neither were they faithful from all I know about faith. They even went as far as to ask Aaron to make them other gods. This is not what I claim to be faithful behavior.

Just to show you what I was commenting on.

The 3000 Messianics you're speaking of were faithful indeed. But we were discussing already (page 5)... if Messianic (Jesus-believing) Jews can make up a group called "all Israel" in Romans 11:26. We have discussed whether or not faithful people intrinsically form a group which is called "enemy of the Gospel" in Romans 11:28.
I don't want to go around in circles with you.

To answer your question: normal Jews I think are the non-Messianic Jews.

parousia70 said:

Demonstrably untrue.
You really are making this too easy.
Acts 7:38

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I meant the Christian church.

Regards,
Thomas

Douggg said:

It is in Revelation 12, in the middle of the 7 years, that there occurs a general Jewish redemption.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

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As Parousia commented to the other confused poster here: this is demonstrably untrue.
Israel and the Jews are not mentioned in Revelation 12. Paul says that only a remnant of Israel [the Jews] will be saved. Romans 9:27

The whole idea of a general Jewish redemption, is a construct of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Both are unscriptural lies.

Douggg said:

But that does not turn them into Israel or Jews.

There has to be one generation of Jews who will turn to Jesus - to say
blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

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It isn't possible to change ones ethnicity. Why even suggest it?

All part of your false beliefs, nowhere does the Bible say all the Jews alive when the end times events commence, will call out that blessing to Jesus at His Return. Zechariah 12 & 13, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:14, + , are quite clear; most will die at the Lord's Day of fiery wrath; at least 7+ years before His Return.

Douggg said:

Good point.

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Jesus was sent by God the save the lost tribes of Israel. Matthew 15:24
He did not save the Jews, other that His few disciples and the Jews remain in unbelief today.

You show yourself to be one who blindly supports teachings that are not true at all.

keras said:

The whole idea of a general Jewish redemption, is a construct of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory.

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The rapture is in Revelation 12? I don't think so.

keras said:

As Parousia commented to the other confused poster here: this is demonstrably untrue. Israel and the Jews are not mentioned in Revelation 12.

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Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The woman is Israel. That "Now is come salvation" in Revelation 12:10, after Satan in the future being cast down to earth, having a time, times, half time left can only be referring to the Jews turning to believing in Jesus in the middle of the 7 years. Up to that point, the Jews as a whole, will have rejected the gospel. Which the basis for your argument that they have rejected the gospel, right?

Revelation 12:7-17 goes back to 11:15-17 the taking away of Satan and his angels power over the kingdoms of the earth.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ [Revelation 12:10 "and the kingdom of our God"]; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned [Revelation 12:10 "and the power of his Christ"].
_____________________________________________________

The whole scenario concept of the end times is that the Jews will think for a while that the Antichrist is the messiah, until he betrays them, becomes the beast. And then the Jews turn to Jesus. God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great, as the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and His Christ.

And at the end of the 7 years, in Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to earth, to Jerusalem, and rescues the Jews there splitting the Mt. of Olives in half, making a way for escape like in the days of Uzziah.... which is not in the background of non-Jews.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Douggg said:

The rapture is in Revelation 12? I don't think so.

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Neither do I. Nor is there a Jewish redemption.

Douggg said:

The woman is Israel. That "Now is come salvation" in Revelation 12:10, after Satan in the future being cast down to earth, having a time, times, half time left can only be referring to the Jews turning to believing in Jesus in the middle of the 7 years. Up to that point, the Jews as a whole, will have rejected the gospel. Which the basis for your argument that they have rejected the gospel, right?

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Wrong.
The 'woman' is the faithful Christians. Israel and Jews are not mentioned in Rev 12.
My argument, supported by many scriptures, is that there won't be the Jews as a nation any more after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

It is the Christian people who will be divided into two groups, when Satan takes over the leader of the OWG; the Anti-Christ. As described in Daniel 11:31-35. Read these verses carefully and understand.

keras said:

The 'woman' is the faithful Christians. Israel and Jews are not mentioned in Rev 12.

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The church did not exist at the time Jesus was born.
Daniel 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

keras said:

My argument, supported by many scriptures, is that there won't be the Jews as a nation any more after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

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You have made a mis-application of scriptures.

Ezekiel 39:17-28, cannot apply to anyone but the Jews who rejected Jesus and went into the 2000 year captivity into the nations.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

thomas_t said:

I must admit, the word "ekklesia"= church figures in there.

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You are to be commended for recognizing, admitting to and correcting your previous error.

To answer your question: normal Jews I think are the non-Messianic Jews.

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What makes them Jews?
DNA? Religion?

Since No "normal, non messianic Jew" Today has any verifiable genetic relationship to any pre-desolation Hebrew person, nor practices the same religion as the Biblical Hebrews, I continue to wonder what criteria you are using besides, as I said initially, they simply say they are, so you blindly accept their claim without scrutiny.

Or, are you in possession of even a shred of actual evidence? Evidence that has eluded the rest of mankind for thousands of years, suddenly you have?
If so, by all means show it.

Douggg said:

The church did not exist at the time Jesus was born.

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Yes; not the Christian Church, but the faithful believers in God did. Same thing; different name.

Douggg said:

You have made a mis-application of scriptures.

Ezekiel 39:17-28, cannot apply to anyone but the Jews who rejected Jesus and went into the 2000 year captivity into the nations.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

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The House of Israel is mentioned there three times. The House of Judah; never.
And if you think they have rejoined, the Bible never tells us when it happened in the past, but it does say it is future. Ezekiel 37 has plainly not been fulfilled, where are the blessings promised?
It is you that mis-applies scripture, to make the false 'rapture to heaven' theory work. To your discredit.

Hi Parousia,
I answered this

parousia70 said:

If so, by all means show it.

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already here. That was an answer to you...
Thomas

keras said:

the other confused poster

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this is getting personal, please stop it. Thanks.

keras said:

Yes; not the Christian Church, but the faithful believers in God did. Same thing; different name.

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No, it is not the same thing. The church is them who have received the gospel of Jesus's death and resurrection for forgiveness of their sins. The faithful believers in God at the time before the birth of Jesus in Revelation 12:1-5 were them who believed God. Plus, it is irrelavent because Jesus was borne unto Israel - whether they were faithful believers in God or not, because the scriptures say....

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The House of Israel is mentioned there three times. The House of Judah; never.
And if you think they have rejoined, the Bible never tells us when it happened in the past, but it does say it is future. Ezekiel 37 has plainly not been fulfilled, where are the blessings promised?

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The house of Israel in Ezekiel 39, is referring to the whole house of Israel, Jacob.

Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Do an image search for "map of Israel" - and you will see that modern Israel is not divided into two nations, north and south. Fulfillment of part of Ezekiel 37 has taken place.

The church is not Israel. The church is not Israel in Revelation 12. Zechariah 14:5, "as ye fled" in the days of Uzziah king of Judah" is not talking about the church.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Douggg said:

No, it is not the same thing. The church is them who have received the gospel of Jesus's death and resurrection for forgiveness of their sins.

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exactly. Keep up your good work.
If I knew more about Revelations I would certainly think about voting your posts up .
Thomas

I suppose we just have to wait until the Lord brings on His Day of fiery wrath, that will change the world.
As Isaiah 29:17-24 says:
In a very short time, [after that Day] the holy Land will be regenerated, like the Garden of Eden.
On that Day the deaf will hear and the blind will see...…..The confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction.

thomas_t said:

I meant the Christian church.

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There is only ONE group that's God's people (IOW - there's no distinction between Jew and Gentile, which you seem to consistently be making).