LDS The Mormon Adam Was Baptized & Held the Priesthood

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
That's true. However, I want to clarifiy what ViaCrucis is saying.

You don't have to get used to it. They abolished lds.org!

So what it is now? You have to write out the whole name?

Rescued One · Nov 28, 2019

mmksparbud said:
So what it is now? You have to write out the whole name?

No, the site is worse than that because it's totally deceptive: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study?lang=eng
churchofjesuschrist.org!

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
No, the site is worse than that because it's totally deceptive: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study?lang=eng

Their dictionary is interesting---here their definition for Urim and Thummim:

Hebrew term that means “Lights and Perfections.” An instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages. See Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Num. 27:21; Deut. 33:8; 1 Sam. 28:6; Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65; JS—H 1:35.

Using a Urim and Thummim is the special prerogative of a seer, and it would seem reasonable that such instruments were used from the time of Adam. However, the earliest mention is in connection with the brother of Jared (Ether 3:21–28). Abraham used a Urim and Thummim (Abr. 3:1–4), as did Aaron and the priests of Israel, and also the prophets among the Nephites (Omni 1:20–21; Mosiah 8:13–19; 21:26–28; 28:11–20; Ether 4:1–7). There is more than one Urim and Thummim, but we are informed that Joseph Smith had the one used by the brother of Jared (Ether 3:22–28; D&C 10:1; 17:1). (See Seer.) A partial description is given in JS—H 1:35. Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations.

This earth in its celestial condition will be a Urim and Thummim, and many within that kingdom will have an additional Urim and Thummim (D&C 130:6

Rescued One · Nov 28, 2019

Seer stone apparently used by Joseph Smith.

mmksparbud said:
Their dictionary is interesting---here their definition for Urim and Thummim:

Hebrew term that means “Lights and Perfections.” An instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages. See Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Num. 27:21; Deut. 33:8; 1 Sam. 28:6; Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65; JS—H 1:35.

Using a Urim and Thummim is the special prerogative of a seer, and it would seem reasonable that such instruments were used from the time of Adam. However, the earliest mention is in connection with the brother of Jared (Ether 3:21–28). Abraham used a Urim and Thummim (Abr. 3:1–4), as did Aaron and the priests of Israel, and also the prophets among the Nephites (Omni 1:20–21; Mosiah 8:13–19; 21:26–28; 28:11–20; Ether 4:1–7). There is more than one Urim and Thummim, but we are informed that Joseph Smith had the one used by the brother of Jared (Ether 3:22–28; D&C 10:1; 17:1). (See Seer.) A partial description is given in JS—H 1:35. Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations.

This earth in its celestial condition will be a Urim and Thummim, and many within that kingdom will have an additional Urim and Thummim (D&C 130:6

ViaCrucis · Nov 28, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Are we still talking about Adam???

I guess I don't understand, why wouldn't Adam--assuming there was a literal, historical Adam in the first place--be included among the ancient saints?

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way · Nov 28, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
The answer was in the bolded part. Did you not read all of it?

If your church is supposed to be the restored 1st century church, then why are you not baptizing in "the water of a spring or a flowing body of water"?

I read ALL of it and there is NOTHING there about infants. Most likely the children were eight years old or older. Not everyone was baptized in flowing water. Some were baptized for the dead in the molten sea:

(Old Testament | 2 Chronicles 4:2 - 6)

2 ¶ Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
3 And under it was the similitude of oxen, which did compass it round about: ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about. Two rows of oxen were cast, when it was cast.
4 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
5 And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths.
6 ¶ He made also ten lavers, and put five on the right hand, and five on the left, to wash in them: such things as they offered for the burnt offering they washed in them; but the sea was for the priests to wash in.

(New Testament | Titus 3:5 - 6)

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

He is the way · Nov 28, 2019

mmksparbud said:
That has been explained countless times and you refuse to acknowledge it----baptism for the dead was a bath that is given to the dead--to cleans them---it is not what you think it means. It is a mikveh. And was so integral to the community, one is built even before a synagogue. In fact, they would sell a synagogue in order to build one! It was like the pools of the sanctuary--they were for purification, not the baptism that you think of.

Why was Jesus baptized? He had no sin to be cleansed from. He did it for those who could not. Like the thief on the cross. His death covers our sins, His baptism does the same for those who somehow can't.

You said: "baptism for the dead was a bath that is given to the dead--to cleans them"

The dead were not bathed.

You said: "Why was Jesus baptized?"

(New Testament | Matthew 3:14 - 17)

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

dzheremi · Nov 28, 2019

What, pray tell, does the description of the molten sea in 2 Chronicles have to do with the apostle's question in 1 Corinthians?

He is the way · Nov 28, 2019

dzheremi said:
What, pray tell, does the description of the molten sea in 2 Chronicles have to do with the apostle's question in 1 Corinthians?

The molten sea was used for baptism for the dead.

dzheremi · Nov 28, 2019

He is the way said:
The molten sea was used for baptism for the dead.

Prove it from historical (non-LDS) sources.

He is the way · Nov 28, 2019

dzheremi said:
Prove it from historical (non-LDS) sources.

We live by faith, not proof. Nothing can be proven to someone who will not believe.

dzheremi · Nov 28, 2019

Some things can be proven, however.

I would think that existence and usage of a particular type of fountain or other fixture would be among the provable things, in the same way that we have found ancient baptismal fonts that have helped us date the construction of the churches in which they are found.

But I guess if you don't have that kind of real-world, historical evidence for what you claim, then it very easily becomes a matter of faith.

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "baptism for the dead was a bath that is given to the dead--to cleans them"

The dead were not bathed.

You said: "Why was Jesus baptized?"

(New Testament | Matthew 3:14 - 17)

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Obviously you do not know Jewish culture very well. And you did not even bother to look up the word.
The dead were definately bathed and the mikvah was used and still is used today---that is what was in the temple. You guys do not like being informed of truth so I won't bother posting YET AGAIN--about the mikvah's. Thjey were for purification purposes---they purified everything in water---even cooking utensils, women after their monthly cycles, for sexual clesansing, everything. Thjere are all sorts of very detailed instructiolns as to their construction and use---it is not for routine bathing---you had to be washed before being immersed. All dead bodies were washed first then went into the purification pools.

Yes, fulfil all righteousness----and those who can not be baptized, can have His, just as we have His cross and death for us. I know you won't believe it---you only want to believe what your prophets says and not even think about anything else.

For those who are interested here are a couple links:

Mikveh - Wikipedia

Mikvah (Baptism): The Connection Between Immersion, Conversion and Being Born Again | Messianic Bible

Preparing the body — Taharah[edit]
There are three major stages to preparing the body for burial: washing (rechitzah), ritual purification (taharah), and dressing (halbashah). The term taharah is used to refer both to the overall process of burial preparation, and to the specific step of ritual purification.

Prayers and readings from Torah, including Psalms, Song of Songs, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah are recited.

The general sequence of steps for performing taharah is as follows.

The body (guf) is uncovered (it has been covered with a sheet awaiting taharah).
The body is washed carefully. Any bleeding is stopped and all blood is buried along with the deceased. The body is thoroughly cleaned of dirt, body fluids, and solids, and anything else that may be on the skin. All jewelry is removed. The beard (if present) is not shaved.
The body is purified with water, either by immersion in a mikveh or by pouring a continuous stream of 9 kavim (usually 3 buckets) in a prescribed manner.
The body is dried (according to most customs).
The body is dressed in traditional burial clothing (tachrichim). A sash (avnet) is wrapped around the clothing and tied in the form of the Hebrew letter shin, representing one of the names of God.
The casket (aron) (if there is one) is prepared by removing any linings or other embellishments. A winding sheet (sovev) is laid into the casket. Outside the Land of Israel, if the deceased wore a prayer shawl (tallit) during their life, one is laid in the casket for wrapping the body once it is placed therein. One of the corner fringes (tzitzit) is removed from the shawl to signify that it will no longer be used for prayer and that the person is absolved from having to keep any of the mitzvot (commandments).
The body is lifted into the casket and wrapped in the prayer shawl and sheet. Soil (afar) from Eretz Israel, if available, is placed over various parts of the body and sprinkled in the casket.
The casket is closed.

After the closing of the casket, the chevra asks forgiveness of the deceased for any inadvertent lack of honor shown to the deceased in the preparation of the body for burial.

There is no viewing of the body and no open casket at the funeral. Sometimes the immediate family pay their final respects before the funeral. In Israel caskets are not used at all, with the exception of military and state funerals. Instead, the body is carried to the grave wrapped in a tallit and placed directly in the earth.

In the Diaspora, in general, a casket is only used if required by local law. Traditionally, caskets are simple and made of unfinished wood; both wood with a finish and metal would slow the return of the body to dust (Genesis 3:19). Strictly-observant practice avoids all metal; the wood parts of the casket are joined by wood dowels rather than nails.

From death until burial, it is traditional for guards or watchers (shomrim) to stay with the deceased. It is traditional to recite Psalms (tehillim) during this time.

Rescued One · Nov 28, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
I guess I don't understand, why wouldn't Adam--assuming there was a literal, historical Adam in the first place--be included among the ancient saints?

-CryptoLutheran

I'm the one less educated. I don't know much about Lutheranism. Who gets saved when they die? Was Adam's sin(disobedience to God when he partook of the forbidden fruit) forgiven ?

Rescued One · Nov 28, 2019

dzheremi said:
What, pray tell, does the description of the molten sea in 2 Chronicles have to do with the apostle's question in 1 Corinthians?

Adherents of Mormonism believe that the molten sea in Solomon's Temple was a baptismal font. As explained by apostle Bruce R. McConkie:

In Solomon’s Temple a large molten sea of brass was placed on the backs of 12 brazen oxen, these oxen being symbolical of the 12 tribes of Israel. This brazen sea was used for performing baptisms for the living. There were no baptisms for the dead until after the resurrection of Christ.

It must be remembered that all direct and plain references to baptism have been deleted from the Old Testament (1 Nephi 13) and that the word baptize is of Greek origin. Some equivalent word, such as wash, would have been used by the Hebrew peoples. In describing the molten sea the Old Testament record says, "The sea was for the priests to wash in." (2 Chron 4:2–6). This is tantamount to saying that the priests performed baptisms in it.[9]

Every temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) contains a baptismal font on twelve oxen that is modeled after the molten sea. The LDS Church performs baptisms for the dead in these fonts.
Molten Sea - Wikipedia

McConkie said that the brazen sea was used for performing baptisms for the living. There were no baptisms for the dead until after the resurrection of Christ.

So, I find it curious that Mormon baptisms for the living are not administered in a font on the backs of 12 oxen.

He is the way · Nov 29, 2019

dzheremi said:
Some things can be proven, however.

I would think that existence and usage of a particular type of fountain or other fixture would be among the provable things, in the same way that we have found ancient baptismal fonts that have helped us date the construction of the churches in which they are found.

But I guess if you don't have that kind of real-world, historical evidence for what you claim, then it very easily becomes a matter of faith.

There are still people who believe that the earth is flat. There are people who don't and won't believe in God. No amount of proof will change their minds. I believe in God and I believe that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God. I have my own proof that this is so. The main reason I am here is to let people know the importance of repenting and thereafter keeping the commandments of LOVE. This is the whole duty of man. Another reason is to correct erroneous statements made about The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

dzheremi · Nov 29, 2019

None of that is proof of your assertion that the ancient Hebrews practiced baptism for the dead, either in the molten sea or anywhere.

Still waiting for that proof, not just piffle about "keeping the commandments" and obnoxious capitalizing the word LOVE all the time. If this is supposed to somehow correct other peoples' misconceptions about your religion, it is a massive failure.

He is the way · Nov 29, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Obviously you do not know Jewish culture very well. And you did not even bother to look up the word.
The dead were definately bathed and the mikvah was used and still is used today---that is what was in the temple. You guys do not like being informed of truth so I won't bother posting YET AGAIN--about the mikvah's. Thjey were for purification purposes---they purified everything in water---even cooking utensils, women after their monthly cycles, for sexual clesansing, everything. Thjere are all sorts of very detailed instructiolns as to their construction and use---it is not for routine bathing---you had to be washed before being immersed. All dead bodies were washed first then went into the purification pools.

Yes, fulfil all righteousness----and those who can not be baptized, can have His, just as we have His cross and death for us. I know you won't believe it---you only want to believe what your prophets says and not even think about anything else.

For those who are interested here are a couple links:

Mikveh - Wikipedia

Mikvah (Baptism): The Connection Between Immersion, Conversion and Being Born Again | Messianic Bible

Preparing the body — Taharah[edit]
There are three major stages to preparing the body for burial: washing (rechitzah), ritual purification (taharah), and dressing (halbashah). The term taharah is used to refer both to the overall process of burial preparation, and to the specific step of ritual purification.

Prayers and readings from Torah, including Psalms, Song of Songs, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah are recited.

The general sequence of steps for performing taharah is as follows.

The body (guf) is uncovered (it has been covered with a sheet awaiting taharah).

The body is washed carefully. Any bleeding is stopped and all blood is buried along with the deceased. The body is thoroughly cleaned of dirt, body fluids, and solids, and anything else that may be on the skin. All jewelry is removed. The beard (if present) is not shaved.

The body is purified with water, either by immersion in a mikveh or by pouring a continuous stream of 9 kavim (usually 3 buckets) in a prescribed manner.

The body is dried (according to most customs).

The body is dressed in traditional burial clothing (tachrichim). A sash (avnet) is wrapped around the clothing and tied in the form of the Hebrew letter shin, representing one of the names of God.

The casket (aron) (if there is one) is prepared by removing any linings or other embellishments. A winding sheet (sovev) is laid into the casket. Outside the Land of Israel, if the deceased wore a prayer shawl (tallit) during their life, one is laid in the casket for wrapping the body once it is placed therein. One of the corner fringes (tzitzit) is removed from the shawl to signify that it will no longer be used for prayer and that the person is absolved from having to keep any of the mitzvot (commandments).

The body is lifted into the casket and wrapped in the prayer shawl and sheet. Soil (afar) from Eretz Israel, if available, is placed over various parts of the body and sprinkled in the casket.

The casket is closed.

After the closing of the casket, the chevra asks forgiveness of the deceased for any inadvertent lack of honor shown to the deceased in the preparation of the body for burial.

There is no viewing of the body and no open casket at the funeral. Sometimes the immediate family pay their final respects before the funeral. In Israel caskets are not used at all, with the exception of military and state funerals. Instead, the body is carried to the grave wrapped in a tallit and placed directly in the earth.

In the Diaspora, in general, a casket is only used if required by local law. Traditionally, caskets are simple and made of unfinished wood; both wood with a finish and metal would slow the return of the body to dust (Genesis 3:19). Strictly-observant practice avoids all metal; the wood parts of the casket are joined by wood dowels rather than nails.

From death until burial, it is traditional for guards or watchers (shomrim) to stay with the deceased. It is traditional to recite Psalms (tehillim) during this time.

Thank you for the information. I have always believed that baptism did not start with John the baptist. I also believe that baptism for the dead was common knowledge at the time of Jesus Christ. I do not believe that the washing of the body was/is known as a baptism. It is only recently that washing of the body has been restored and only about 15% of the Jewish people adhere to that washing. It is not known if the body of Jesus was washed.

He is the way · Nov 29, 2019

dzheremi said:
None of that is proof of your assertion that the ancient Hebrews practiced baptism for the dead, either in the molten sea or anywhere.

Still waiting for that proof, not just piffle about "keeping the commandments" and obnoxious capitalizing the word LOVE all the time. If this is supposed to somehow correct other peoples' misconceptions about your religion, it is a massive failure.

You write off the proof, but it is there:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

God is LOVE and the gospel is all about LOVE so I will keep capitalizing the word LOVE.

ViaCrucis · Nov 29, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I'm the one less educated. I don't know much about Lutheranism. Who gets saved when they die? Was Adam's sin(disobedience to God when he partook of the forbidden fruit) forgiven ?

The Lutheran view here would be the same as the Catholic, Orthodox, et al view.

When Christ descended into Hades and took Hades captive, He defeated death, bound the devil, and set captives free. This is the Harrowing of Hell, and is what is referred to in the Apostles' Creed, "He descended into hell" (more accurately "descended into the depths" or "descended into the lower regions", the Latin being descendit ad inferos).

The Icon of the Anastasis (Resurrection) depicts Christ in Hades, with the gates of Hades fallen and under His feet, usually with one or two figures bound and crushed beneath the gates, these being death and the devil. Christ is shown pulling Adam (and usually also Eve) from their sarcophogi by the wrist (because they are helpless and powerless). This represents the victory of Christ over death for the entire human race, here Adam and Eve are freed from the chains of death, and the curse which the entire human race has been held captive by. On Christ's right and left are the saints, David, Solomon, Abraham, Moses, etc.

Christ's great and glorious work of our salvation is the salvation of the entire world; the death He died was the death of all men, and by His resurrection He has attained victory over death to and for all.

-CryptoLutheran

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