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Sorry if I misunderstood you. I'm not lying but possibly mistaken. Are you Premillennial?
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Who is THE RESTRAINER
- Thread starter Tra Phull
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I won't get into a lengthy discussion with you as these sometimes go. Because I see no point in it.
The Man Of Lawlessness is not a man. That's a figure of speech meaning those who are taking part in directing the organizations that do what Paul claims that man does. So Paul means all of them and not just one individual.
As Paul said, the mystery of his lawlessness was already present in the first century. So it couldn't be a single person.
And the scriptures speak of his rebellious acts meaning just that. Not meaning the departure of the church to heaven. The rebellion is in the church. And it is not recognized by all members because Paul spoke of a rebellion against God and what God really teaches. In a deceived condition no church members can recognize it because they believe the Man of Lawlessness' teaching is the truth. By claiming his way is the truth he sits himself in the seat of God putting himself, meaning his teaching, above everything else considered holy and above all other gods. It's the same apostasy Peter wrote about.
Paul was just reminding them Christ would not come until after this apostasy was revealed to his chosen ones. For the most part it was not revealed to the chosen ones in Paul's day because he and the apostles would remove those teaching false doctrines from the church if they didn't stop it.
The beasts in Revelation is something altogether different. Read Daniel. It clearly represents multiple governments in different historical periods. The final eighth king springing from the seven represents the rulers in the final days getting together as John says in Revelation to war against Christ's kingdom. They evidently do so by outlawing all religious practices. Because John also said they destroy Babylon the Great which would include all false religion not just The Man of Lawlessness which are the organizations teaching harmful biblical doctrines. They war against Christ's kingdom at the same time because in their attempt to eradicate all religious practices they are attempting to stop Christ's chosen ones from spreading his message. The same thing happened in Daniel's day in Babylon when he was thrown into the pit with lions.
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Modalism "telescopes" and "squishes" the Godhead together, blurring into oblivion the distinctions between The One True God The Father and His Word & Spirit ("His two hands" to quote Saint Irenaeus)
With those barriers demolished (in the minds of humans on earth), God's Word becomes equivalent to The One True God The Father (in peoples' minds)
So, the 1st coming of Jesus can be recast (from God's Word incarnate) to The God The Father Himself incarnate
Then, the 2nd coming of Jesus is recastable as the same (The One True God The Father incarnate on earth, though of course only in the minds of humans on earth, not in hard tangible external reality, John 1:18)
PREDICTION: earth history ends the following way:
With those barriers demolished (in the minds of humans on earth), God's Word becomes equivalent to The One True God The Father (in peoples' minds)
So, the 1st coming of Jesus can be recast (from God's Word incarnate) to The God The Father Himself incarnate
Then, the 2nd coming of Jesus is recastable as the same (The One True God The Father incarnate on earth, though of course only in the minds of humans on earth, not in hard tangible external reality, John 1:18)
PREDICTION: earth history ends the following way:
- some (mortal, one-pants-leg-at-a-time) human, in Christendom (spiritually the "camp of the Saints"), will claim (falsely) to be the 2nd coming of Christ...
- and, then, from there, claim to be the Word of God = God Himself incarnate...
- triggering 2 Thessalonians 2:4 = Final Judgement @ Great White Throne Judgement @ True Real Actual 2nd Coming as God in heaven (with Christ at His Right Hand) "sets the record permanently straight in this solar system & sector of space"
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Actually the earth will die a natural death:
Genesis 8: 20Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
22“While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”
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I believe that the "as I have done" means with a flood.. Never again with a world wide flood, will he erase mankind..... Thus, the rainbow, which has been stolen by the LGBTQ.... not without knowledge.
Anyway... there will be a new heaven and a new earth when God removes the little force that holds all neutrons to the protons in the nucleus in every atom in the universe... This little force... that holds a particle with neutral charge to a particle of positive charge... is puzzling... but essential for all atoms to remain intact.
Remove this.. and the universe comes apart..
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You just described God as being duplicitous. Duplicity comes from a Latin word meaning "double" or "twofold," and its original meaning in English has to do with a kind of deception in which you intentionally hide your true feelings or intentions(ie: Next time I'll burn them with fire) behind false words or actions(Gen 9:16"When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.")
Where does it say that God again will destroy every living thing off the face of the earth?
Paul always uses the word element as referring to the old covenant world and its laws. So, when Peter uses the phrase "the elements shall melt with a fervent heat", is his understanding like Paul's or like Plato's? Keep this in mind: From Got Questions.org "Herod’s temple lasted until AD 70, which marked the end of the second temple era. At that time, after a long war between the Jewish Zealots and the Roman authorities, four Roman legions, led by Titus, besieged Jerusalem and burned down the temple. As the temple burned, the gold and silver ornamentation melted and seeped between the cracks in the stones. In their zeal for a stipend, the Roman soldiers took the temple apart, stone by stone, fulfilling Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24:1–3.
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I do believe this was referring to a "flesh and blood man/men" of the first century. One that Paul couldn't have named openly (but spoke about with those of the Church at Thessalonica, when he was with them).
It makes sense to me that the "restrainer" was the High Priest Ananus ben Ananus. When the Jewish-Roman War broke out in 66 AD, Ananus led the peace movement against the zealots. Josephus said that Ananus “preferred peace above all things,” was “a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people,” and “had already gotten the mastery of those who opposed his designs or were for the war” (Wars 4.5.2). Ananus had restrained the zealots until 67 AD, when they appointed their own High Priest, Phannias (who was unqualified to be a High Priest) that the zealots used as their puppet (Wars 4.3.6-8). The people of Jerusalem “could no longer bear the insolence of this procedure, but did altogether run zealously, in order to overthrow that tyranny…” (Wars 4.3.9). In the speech of Ananus (Wars 4.3.10), he pledged to lead the people in an all-or-nothing attack against the Zealots, not sparing his own body. Ananus and his followers actually gained the upper hand against the Zealots, forcing them into the inner temple and gaining control of the rest of the city (Wars 4.3.12), but their progress came undone because of the trickery of John Levi of Gischala (Wars 4.3.13-14).
Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel were both killed, along with other priests, during the Zealot Temple Siege of February-March AD 68. I believe this was when the restrainer was taken “out of the way.” Their deaths marked a significant turning point for Jerusalem, according to Josephus:
“I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city… to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived they had certainly compounded matters… And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was” (Wars 4.5.2).
After their deaths, the Zealots were unrestrained. They “fell upon the people as upon a flock of profane animals, and cut their throats.” Others endured “terrible torments” before finally meeting their deaths. At least 12,000 died in that massacre (Wars 4.5.3). Josephus described how the Zealots increased their wickedness because the peace-loving high priests were no longer there to hinder them:
“[T]he zealots grew more insolent, not as deserted by their confederates, but as freed from such men as might hinder their designs, and put some stop to their wickedness. Accordingly they made no longer any delay, nor took any deliberation in their enormous practices, but made use of the shortest methods for all their executions, and what they had once resolved upon, they put in practice sooner than anyone could imagine…” (Wars 4.6.1).
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You stopped too quick... go a couple of words further....
Genesis 9:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
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Hi mkgal1,
Did any of those arrogate the spiritual authority of God within the "naos" spiritual temple of the Church? (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
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Again, where in the Bible does it say He will "again" wipe all living things from the face of the earth, thereby breaking his everlasting covenant. How long does His unconditional "everlasting covenant" last?
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ISTM they were at least attempting to - by taking the lives of Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel and placing their own chosen High Priest in place of the True High Priest (Christ Jesus).....do you agree? I am seeing the connection to be about the Holy of Holies/The High Priesthood and the use of the word "sanctuary".
2 Thessalonians 2:4 ~ "he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God."
That's God's place - not necessarily a physical "place", but a spiritual office - to have chosen High Priests (and to end lives) not the office of humans to do so. That's the way I'm seeing it, anyway. Even though this fits both - that the zealots were literally taking over in the physical Temple of Herod's - and that the root word for "sanctuary" came from the word meaning a spiritual sanctuary.
BTW - JGR, what concordance or lexicon are you using? Because I'm not seeing the same distinction between "spiritual" and "physical" in those root words used as you are. For "naos" - the Thayer's Greek lexicon shows that means specifically the Holy place, where the priests officiated Thayer's Greek: 3485. ναός (naos) -- a temple
..... for 1 Corin 9:13: . τό ἱερόν and ὁ ναός differ, in that the former designates the whole compass of the sacred enclosure, embracing the entire aggregate of buildings, balconies, porticos, courts (viz., that of the men or Israelites, that of the women, that of the priests), belonging to the temple; the latter designates the sacred edifice properly so called, consisting of two parts, the 'sanctuary' or 'Holy place' (which no one except the priests was allowed to enter), and the 'Holy of holies' or 'most holy place' (see ἅγιος, 1 a.) (which was entered only on the great day of atonement by the high priest alone); (cf. Trench, Synonyms, § iii.). ἱερόν is employed in the N. T. either explicitly of the whole temple ~ Thayer's Greek: 2411. ἱερόν (hieron) -- temple.
.....for 1 Corin 9:13, the Greek interlinear shows hiera and hierou are used (which still seem to imply a physical temple).
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Preterism and Reformation historicism have much more in common than not, but they do diverge here, as I'm sure you're aware. Historicism recognizes the apostate papacy in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Insofar as any Judaic High Priest claiming to be God would be the ultimate blasphemy in Judaism itself, it would be difficult to believe that Paul would be referring to a Judaic High Priest in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.
But certain claims and declarations of the apostate papacy have been tantamount to such blasphemy.
Here are "Paul's temples". His word choices demonstrate the distinctions that he draws between the spiritual and the physical:
"naos" spiritual:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
"eidóleion" physical:
1 Corinthians 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
"hieros/hieron" physical:
1 Corinthians 9:13
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
I concur, in 1 Corinthians 9:13 Paul refers to a physical temple. His word choice there of "hier**" distinguishes it from his references elswhere to "naos" spiritual temples.
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It doesn't say that.. It says He won't destroy the human race with a flood.. Ever again.
It does say that at some time there will be an end of these days of "time" and all humans will be judged... all humans will end up in eternal life or eternal death.. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. The old heaven and the old earth will pass away..
However, it does not say that He will destroy mankind and wipe them from the face of the earth...
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From listening to the beliefs of others it appears to me that most maybe even all Christians believe there is a distinction between the Father and Son. It also appears most belief there is a third being called the Holy Spirit. My personal belief is there are only two separate beings that hold the position of a true biblical God, who is accepted as such as god over angels and men/women. Those two are the Father and Son.
I believe the Holy Spirit is part of their very being, in the same way a part of our bodies, say our arms, are part of our being. I know the Holy Spirit is spoken of as "he," but I believe that is because it is a part of Christ and his Father that includes their consciousness. Revelation 5:6-7 reads, "Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Revelation 4:5 reads, "From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder. Before the throne burned seven torches of fire. These are the seven Spirits of God."
Therefore, I believe that Holy Spirit is God not as a separate person from Christ or his Father, but that Holy Spirit is the Father and/or the Son exercising their wills while people cannot see their being.
* Prediction: The end will come in this way. Some terrorist group or nation will set off some mass catastrophes that far exceed any they have yet to mount, probably nuclear or biological. One of the reasons for their actions, that they will attach to their terrorism, will be their religious beliefs (just like many do today). It might come from an Islamic terrorist group, but not necessarily because as recently as the early 20th century the United States congress attached religious reasons to justify its use of force against other nations. Because of the religious attachment on the part of this group or these groups then the world's nations will decide to eliminate all religions out of a sense of self preservation. The world would never eliminate a dominant religion without eliminating them all.
That effort by the world's governments to eliminate religion will be the attack of the wild beast of Revelation (the world's governments) upon the Harlot, the city that is over all the kings of the earth (the harlot describing earth's religious institutions that commit fornication with the governments by supporting unchristian behaviors instituted by governments). By attempting to eliminate religion the governments will attempt to eliminate Christ's true church, which brings about God's judgment.
The antichrist, the man of lawlessness from Thessalonians has been here since the days of the apostles, as Paul said his works were already present in Paul's day. His complete revealing just was not obvious to Christ's true followers. The inquisitions, and other acts of Christian apostasy made him completely revealed. Paul did not say the end would come directly after he was revealed. Paul just claimed he would be revealed before the end comes. Also, Revelation describes this beast that destroys it (Babylon the Great) as being a culmination of many governments existing on earth, that collaborate to destroy that harlot. Revelation does not describe that beast as being a single individual either. It's the world's governments at that time.
I claim while you are waiting for this antichrist man of lawlessness to arise he has been here for centuries. He set himself down in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be a god, and denouncing all other things that are considered holy. Some of those other things considered holy are the beliefs of Christ's true anointed church. Rather that group of church leaders from Paul's day forward teach Christ's church must follow them, thus declaring themselves God before Christ's church.
To back my point I cite there are a great variety of beliefs about what the Bible means on this site. We can freely get away with expressing those views without suffering any negative consequences on this site, even though we hold different views about major biblical teachings. But if we attended a denomination, as a member or teacher in that denomination, would we be able to express such diverse views without some of us getting sanctioned by those controlling the group? I doubt it. And yet scriptures do not teach all Christians must share the same views on what scriptures teach in order to be acceptable before Christ. Thus I say your man of lawlessness is already right in front of you and has been there almost since the church was founded.
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cart before the horse?
The rapture-like event occurs at the 2C as part of Final Judgement, not prior to it?
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maybe, who knows?
Yet you would acknowledge that those opinions are nowhere found in historic Christianity, for example do not derive from any of the writings of the earliest Apostolic & Church fathers in the first centuries of the Church ?
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