Al Touthentop

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While God can use Assyria for His purposes, Assyria is no more the people of the Prince, any more than the Romans are. That is a huge stretch in thinking there. Unbelievers are not the people of the Prince.


Yes, apparently the better alternative to common sense is to claim that none of it actually took place as prophesied and fabricate a gap in time that is not even mentioned.
 
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Dave L

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The text itself mentions things happening in between a gap of time. Refresh the page, and see my commentary again and re-read it very slowly and carefully. Verse 26 is saying AFTER the 7 + 62 weeks (69 weeks), the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. His dying on the cross for us). The people of the prince are unbelievers because unbelievers destroyed the Jewish city. Romans had destroyed the Jewish city. Romans are unbelievers. They are the people of the prince who destroyed the city. This again takes place AFTER 69 weeks. Verse 27 is dealing with the Prince of the Power of the air because it is the same prince mentioned from verse 26 (i.e. the prince of the people who destroy the Jewish city), AND in this final week (70th week): This prince (i.e. the devil who works in unbelievers) will make the overspreading of abominations desolate, even until the consummation (i.e. Consummation = End).

What is the "abominations desolate"?

Is this referring to the Messiah? NO!!!


Mark 13:14-20

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

Jesus speaks negatively of the "abomination of desolation" and says that it is standing where it ought not to be. This is the image of the beast in the Jewish temple in the upcoming future.

Revelation 13:14-15

"They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

I never heard about this happening already in history.

Also, it says there will be affliction such as not from the beginning of the creation nor shall ever be again. Meaning, this event is soooo bad that it will be the worst affliction EVER in human history!!! You would think that if this was event was so bad, then why hasn't anyone in history remember it?

The antichrist is going to kill 1/4th of the planet by the enforcement of the mark of the beast. This is the breaking of the 4th seal. The 5th seal is the saints crying out for justice in Heaven (in the fact that they were just killed). The 6th seal is God's response in answering their cry for justice and He brings in His wrath upon the Earth. Demons coming up, darkness, etc. I am pretty sure none of the stuff in Revelation like this has happened yet.
This is imaginary. Christ fulfilled the 70th week just as stated. Gap = False prophecy based on what might happen if there was a gap.
 
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His student

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Well, I think that the reason for this is obvious. The events were said to be shortly taking place. A person who ignored the words would suffer the problems the book predicted.
"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

By the way - in looking back at my previous post with the warning from Revelation - it seems a little harsh.

I certainly don't mean it as a "flame" against those who are critics of the dispensationalist viewpoint.

I happen to believe in eternal security for what it's worth. That being said, I can't help but note that the warning at the end of the book of Revelation is meant for the Lord's church according to what we are told at the beginning of the book of Revelation.

It is a very, very harsh warning in view of that fact.

I just feel that, considering the fact that it is, I can do no less than present it to the church in an equally blunt way when referring to it here.
 
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David Kent

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Where's the gap mentioned in scripture?

It isn't of course. The timing is all wrong. God gave the decree to rebuild the city and the temple. Cyrus was the one who published it. Not Artaxerxes.

The gap theory is a lie. After the 7+62=69 weeks Messiah was to be cut off. What comes after 69? You don't need to be a maths genius to work that out, 70. When was he cut off? In the midst of the week. In the midst of a prophetic week and in the midst of a literal week.
 
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David Kent

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That gap doesn't exist in the text. God said that the time appointed was 70 weeks, not 69 weeks plus some gap ending in an arbitrary final week. The gap is an invention of man. You can't find either the word "gap" or an implication of it in the text.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]"

That's 69 weeks until the messiah arrives. He arrived in the 69th week. In the middle of the next week, 3 1/2 years, he made a new covenant, just as was prophesied.

"And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off" - which includes the 7 weeks previously mentioned, thus 69 weeks in total so far. This "after" means that the cut off occurs after the 69 weeks and sometime in the 70th week.

"A mystery, not revealed to Daniel." But revealed to some modern day people eh? When did Gabriel reveal this to them?

If this prophecy wasn't fulfilled just as the angel told Gabriel, then we can't trust God to deliver his word. Every other time-based prophecy he's delivered to his people, like the 400 years between Abraham and the delivery of the people from bondage, the 120 years between the prophecy of the flood and its occurrence and in other places, have to be called into question. But that isn't what happened. In every case that God gave a time-limit for a prophecy, it came to pass in the time specified.

In an earlier post I referred to what Paul said about new teachings in the last days and it upset one. However it is important 1 Timothy 4:1
 
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David Kent

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I am not saying that the 70AD temple destruction happens in the 70th week. I believe it happens in between the 69th week, and the 70th week (i.e. in the Gap). Even Christ's death (Which is before the 70AD temple destruction) happens in between the 69th week, and the 70th week (i.e. in the Prophetic Gap). So you believe the "people of the prince" are the Romans who destroyed the temple in 70AD? Yes? I just want to make sure what you believe here. When does this 70AD temple destruction take place in the 70 weeks?

It doesn't. The six things that were determined to happen in the 70 weeks were given in Daniel 9:24, Most of the other things are a result of Messiah being cut off. The times of vengeance.
 
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David Kent

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@Al Touthentop

Please keep in mind that if you believe the "people of the prince" are the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD, then the continued context of the "he" (i.e. prince) in the next verse is referring to the prince of the Romans who destroyed the Jewish temple (Which is the prince of the power of the air).

27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27).

So the word "he" is the immediate context of the "people of the prince."

Romans 15:8Absolutely wrong.

The prince is not the subject of the verse. His people are. His people were the soldiers who surrounded Jerusalem and eventually destroyed the temple against his orders. The he refers back to Messiah the Prince. Jesus was the one who confirmed (or made as some insist) the covenant with many. Matthew 20:28, 26:28. Mark 10:45, 14:24.

Jesus also came as a minister to the circumscised to confirm the promises made to the fathers Romans 15:8
 
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Absolutely wrong.

The prince is not the subject of the verse. His people are. His people were the soldiers who surrounded Jerusalem and eventually destroyed the temple against his orders. The he refers back to Messiah the Prince. Jesus was the one who confirmed (or made as some insist) the covenant with many.

No. The "he" (in verse 27) is in reference to the "prince of the people." (in verse 26); According to History, the Jews did not destroy their own temple. The Romans did in 70AD.
 
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It doesn't. The six things that were determined to happen in the 70 weeks were given in Daniel 9:24, Most of the other things are a result of Messiah being cut off. The times of vengeance.

Reading the Olivet Discourse, Jesus essentially says that this shall be a horrible event like no other ever in history (See: Mark 13:19). So yeah, we would have known about it if it had happened. We would have seen that this was the worst event ever in human history and nothing like that could ever top such a thing.
 
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@David Kent

Also, Jesus speaks negatively of the abominations of desolations in the Olivet discourse and Jesus says that this abomination of desolation stands where it ought not to be. This will be the image of the beast placed within the future Jewish temple. Clearly a basic reading of Revelation shows us that none of those things have happened yet. In history: There has been no enforcement of the mark, demons coming up as depicted in Revelation, darkness like in Revelation, 1/4 of the population of the world dies, etc.
 
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No. The "he" (in verse 27) is in reference to the "prince of the people." (in verse 26); According to History, the Jews did not destroy their own temple. The Romans did in 70AD.

You have reversed that, in scripture it reads "the people of the prince."

Anyway they destroyed the temple and city, so it is fulfilled.
 
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@David Kent

Also, Jesus speaks negatively of the abominations of desolations in the Olivet discourse and Jesus says that this abomination of desolation stands where it ought not to be. This will be the image of the beast placed within the future Jewish temple. Clearly a basic reading of Revelation shows us that none of those things have happened yet. In history: There has been no enforcement of the mark, demons coming up as depicted in Revelation, darkness like in Revelation, 1/4 of the population of the world dies, etc.

Nowhere does it say that the abomination of desolation is an image of the beast. Luke tells us that it is the surrounding armies that would cause the desolation of Jerusalem. I have a copy of an old page of the 1611 King James Bible in the old black letter script. Which in Daniel wher it mentions the sbomination of desolation, the margin says "or desolating armies". That was long before dispensationalism was thought of.
 
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David Kent

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Reading the Olivet Discourse, Jesus essentially says that this shall be a horrible event like no other ever in history (See: Mark 13:19). So yeah, we would have known about it if it had happened. We would have seen that this was the worst event ever in human history and nothing like that could ever top such a thing.

He says "Such as". There was no event such as that. The Jewish economy was ended. The priesthood was finished. The records office that held their genealogies was burnt by the seditious, Those who had recently worn the sacred robes of the priesthood and their bodies were thrown naked into the street and trampled upon. The old testament system of worhip was abolished. Can you tell me if there was any tribulation such as that?
 
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Al Touthentop

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"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9


You cannot eliminate the meaning of one scripture through the use of another. The word used in 1:3 is ταχυ - quickly, and it is inappropriate to ignore its meaning because of another unrelated scripture. Had John and the Holy Spirit wanted to contradict the plain meaning of that word in that context, they would have provided a sign that the reader could interpret.

This taking of unrelated passages and trying to change the meaning of another passage is using the word to fight against itself rather than to harmonize. That word is used at the end of Revelation also because the short time frame was considered important to convey. That is why people repeat things when they speak and write. It's how we stress important concepts.
 
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