THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

keras said:

Josephus, in his book; the Wars of the Jews, gives an accurate and vivid account of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem. Titus never entered the Temple before it was burned and destroyed.
Titus doesn't fit the way this future man will gain power. Revelation 17:12-13

The sitting of a man in the new Temple, claiming to be God, is yet to happen, You may see it, why not be aware of and prepared for all that is prophesied to happen then?

You must have a very elastic imagination, to think 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a spiritual event.
Such a belief simply isn't logical and conflicts with all the other information we are given about this man; wickedness in human form, the man doomed to destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Who will desecrate a literal Temple, as Jesus says: Matthew 24:15

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1. Why do you accept Josephus as an accurate and complete record about Titus but reject the same Josephus' record about the second coming of Christ in clouds in 70 AD?

2. Jesus clearly said that everything will happen in the generation he lived in and then the end will come.
If Paul said something what is difficult to understand, thats another thing, but he was talking about the temple they had standing in their time. Not about some 2000 years possible temple later. This is a too much of a stretch.
There will be no third temple. His kingdom is spiritual now. Church is his temple now.
We cannot twist everything just because of one unclear sentence of Paul.

The most probable and the most simple explanation that does not twist everything else we know about what Christ and Paul said is that the abomination of desolation was brought forth by Romans and Roman emperors killed many Jews and Christians because they rejected worship them as gods. Nero especially was the one the first Church dealt with.
If Paul put it both into one sentence, ok. As Peter said, Paul's lettter are hard to understand.

solid_core said:

1. Why do you accept Josephus as an accurate and complete record about Titus but reject the same Josephus' record about the second coming of Christ in clouds in 70 AD?

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I have read all of Josephus's works. He never says that Jesus Returned in 70AD.

Maybe you make out that idea from how the Christian were warned to flee then. But in no way did it fulfil Acts 1:11 or Revelation 19:11-17

solid_core said:

2. Jesus clearly said that everything will happen in the generation he lived in and then the end will come.

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What Jesus said was; the generation that sees these things who will experience it all. Matthew 24:33-34
'these things'- mainly the budding of the fig tree, that is the re-establishment of Jewish Israel in the holy Land.
'it all' - all the end time events as prophesied, especially in Revelation.

The 'Abomination of desolation', is a clearly described desecration of an existing Temple by a man who goes there a declares himself to be God. NOT happened yet.

claninja said:

Jesus specifically stated the "hour is coming" when they would no longer worship the Father in Jerusalem. We know that time came in 70ad, when every stone of the temple was overturned.

To say that a time is coming when worshipers of the Father will resume worship in a temple in Jerusalem is the exact opposite of Jesus' words, and should be a red herring for anyone.

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That hour came when Jesus rose from the dead, thus establishing the New Covenant, even before the destruction of the Temple. People were already worshipping God in other places besides the Temple in Jerusalem and He heard their prayers and accepted their worship all the same, and if another temple were built, it would change nothing except in the minds of those who lack confidence in the finality of the words of Jesus.

claninja said:

Correct, the gospel of Luke does not tell us how long the nations would trample Jerusalem, only that it would be trampled until the times of the gentiles was complete. However, revelation does and it specifically states 42 months (revelation 11:1).

I don't know if you meant to say "Revelation chapter 17 did not speak of five kings fallen and a presently existing one in that day, but also foretells of one yet to come". Because revelation 17 clearly states 5 kings have fallen and one is.

Regardless, if 42 months is literal, it would have been fulfilled in the 1st century as 5 kings had fallen and "one is".

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Revelation chapter 11 has to do with events that never took place in 70 A.D. and as for Revelation 17, no, I did not intend to make it sound the way it appears (typo on my part); I will edit that post to make it reflect my intended meaning in that it spoke of not only five fallen kings and one presently in existence in that day, but also of one yet to come. We've yet to see the one yet to come.

claninja said:

Your statement of the AOD not being tied to an army contradicts the parallel account in luke, which associates the armies surrounding Jerusalem with the time to flee. You state the man of sin in 2 thessalonians 2 is the AOD, but 2 thessalonians 2 does not specifically say that.

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No, it does not because Luke never calls any army the Abomination of Desolation, and what this AOD and the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians have in common is that they are in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God. That is how the AOD is identified also as that man of sin. There is no way that the two have nothing to do with one another.

claninja said:

The tabernacle was also given specific measurements and descriptions. But it was not the reality, but only a copy (hebrews 9:23-24). The law, with all of its detailed ceremonies, festivals, and sacrifices were only shadow of Christ (hebrews 10:1, colossians 2:16-17).
If all these specific details are only a shadow, the how can the ezekiel temple not be?

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The ceremonies, atonement offerings, and feasts were called shadows of things to come, but the Temple in Ezekiel's vision is never included in that list. It is the seat of God's throne on the earth.

claninja said:

Not always. A lot of OT scripture is not provided with an explanation in the OT, but is interpreted in its true meaning in the NT. Philip had to explain the meaning of the suffering servant to the ethiopian Eunuch. There was no explanation in the OT passage that it would specifically be about Christ.
Additionally, not all of Jesus' parables have an explanation, such as the parable of the hidden treasure or lost pearl, but we know they are earthly pictures used to point to a heavenly truths.

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The only OT scriptures that may not be fully understood, at least in regards to prophecy, are those that have not yet come to pass, but as in the case of Isaiah 53, it is fully understood because its meaning was finally made clear upon its fulfillment and if you haven't found what the intent is behind the parable of the hidden treasure, then you haven't been paying attention.

keras said:

I have read all of Josephus's works. He never says that Jesus Returned in 70AD.

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Jesus:
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven."
Mt 24:30

Josephus:
" there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city for a year. "

Jesus:
"...peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."
Mt 24:30

Josephus:
"Certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

Tacitus:
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure."

keras said:

What Jesus said was; the generation that sees these things who will experience it all. Matthew 24:33-34
'these things'- mainly the budding of the fig tree, that is the re-establishment of Jewish Israel in the holy Land.
'it all' - all the end time events as prophesied, especially in Revelation.

The 'Abomination of desolation', is a clearly described desecration of an existing Temple by a man who goes there a declares himself to be God. NOT happened yet.

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Jesus:
"...when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...."
Mt 24:15

"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
Mt 24:34

Generation is about 40 years. When Jesus prophecized this, it was about 32 AD and it all happened in 66-70 AD.

Everything Jesus said happened as He said.

solid_core said:

Josephus:
" there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city for a year. "

JJosephus:
"Certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

Tacitus:
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure."

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These things did happen then.
They bear no relation to what is prophesied yet to happen during the last few years of this Church age.

solid_core said:

Generation is about 40 years. When Jesus prophecized this, it was about 32 AD and it all happened in 66-70 AD.
Everything Jesus said happened as He said.

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Actually, the final conquest and removal of the Jews happened in 135 AD, 100 years later.

Jesus said many things that still remain to happen. Luke 21:25-28 for example.

Contenders Edge said:

That hour came when Jesus rose from the dead, thus establishing the New Covenant, even before the destruction of the Temple. People were already worshipping God in other places besides the Temple in Jerusalem and He heard their prayers and accepted their worship all the same, and if another temple were built, it would change nothing except in the minds of those who lack confidence in the finality of the words of Jesus.

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We are not talking about worship in general. Of course a temple was not required for reading the torah and praying. Synagogues were present prior to the cross all over the roman world. We're talking specifically about worship in Jerusalem and thus associated with the temple.

It is only the gentiles to whom the counsel in Jerusalem did not burden with all of the laws of Moses.
Acts 15:19-21 It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood. For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Jewish believers, living and worshiping in Jerusalem, were zealous for the law Moses long after the cross

Acts 21:20 When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Paul even took part in a vow making an offering in the temple in order to appease those who may have though Paul taught against the law of Moses. This occurred long after the cross.

Acts 21:26 So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

This clearly shows that the time had not yet come when God's people would no longer worship in Jerusalem in association with the temple.

Contenders Edge said:

Revelation chapter 11 has to do with events that never took place in 70 A.D. and as for Revelation 17, no, I did not intend to make it sound the way it appears (typo on my part); I will edit that post to make it reflect my intended meaning in that it spoke of not only five fallen kings and one presently in existence in that day, but also of one yet to come. We've yet to see the one yet to come.

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Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that is incorrect. Jesus specifically mentions Jerusalem being trampled by the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled in regards to what happen in 70ad. Revelation states that Jerusalem would be trampled by gentiles for 42 months.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

If we are sticking with literal terms, You could probably make an argument for the 42 month authority of the beast occurring AFTER it rises from the Abyss, for revelation 13 mentions the 42 month authority given to the beast "after" its mortal wound was healed.

Otherwise, it's hard to make a case for a literal 42 month reign of the beast as it existed in the 1st century: "five have fallen, one is,".

Contenders Edge said:

No, it does not because Luke never calls any army the Abomination of Desolation, and what this AOD and the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians have in common is that they are in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God. That is how the AOD is identified also as that man of sin. There is no way that the two have nothing to do with one another.

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Parallel accounts. Even if the armies are not the AOD, we know that the armies surrounding Jerusalem would occur around the same time as the AOD.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

Contenders Edge said:

The ceremonies, atonement offerings, and feasts were called shadows of things to come, but the Temple in Ezekiel's vision is never included in that list. It is the seat of God's throne on the earth.

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The temple was a copy, not the true sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:23-24 So it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God

Contenders Edge said:

The only OT scriptures that may not be fully understood, at least in regards to prophecy, are those that have not yet come to pass, but as in the case of Isaiah 53, it is fully understood because its meaning was finally made clear upon its fulfillment and if you haven't found what the intent is behind the parable of the hidden treasure, then you haven't been paying attention.

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Jesus was very clear on the fulfillment of "eschatology". Thus setting the standard for how to interpret the OT.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Jesus explains the parable of the sower (matthew 13:18-23) and the parable of the weeds (matthew 13:36-42). If Jesus explains the parable of the hidden treasure and pearl in matthew 13 please point to the verses in order to substantiate your claim.

claninja said:

We are not talking about worship in general. Of course a temple was not required for reading the torah and praying. Synagogues were present prior to the cross all over the roman world. We're talking specifically about worship in Jerusalem and thus associated with the temple.

Jewish believers, living and worshiping in Jerusalem, were zealous for the law Moses long after the cross

Paul even took part in a vow making an offering in the temple in order to appease those who may have though Paul taught against the law of Moses. This occurred long after the cross.

This clearly shows that the time had not yet come when God's people would no longer worship in Jerusalem in association with the temple.

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People were already worshipping apart from the Temple before it was destroyed, and if they were already worshipping apart from the Temple, then they certainly were not worshipping in association with it.

claninja said:

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that is incorrect. Jesus specifically mentions Jerusalem being trampled by the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled in regards to what happen in 70ad. Revelation states that Jerusalem would be trampled by gentiles for 42 months.

If we are sticking with literal terms, You could probably make an argument for the 42 month authority of the beast occurring AFTER it rises from the Abyss, for revelation 13 mentions the 42 month authority given to the beast "after" its mortal wound was healed.

Otherwise, it's hard to make a case for a literal 42 month reign of the beast as it existed in the 1st century: "five have fallen, one is,".

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That is because Jerusalem was being controlled and occupied by the Gentiles before the Israelis took it completely back in 1967. A case cannot easily be made for a symbolic forty two months either. The only way that could be possible is if it could be figured out what the forty-two months represent.

claninja said:

Parallel accounts. Even if the armies are not the AOD, we know that the armies surrounding Jerusalem would occur around the same time as the AOD.

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But there was no AOD in 70 A.D. Just the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

claninja said:

The temple was a copy, not the true sanctuary.

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That could arguably have been the case for Solomon's Temple but not the Temple in Ezekiel's vision. No Temple of that description and size has ever been built.

claninja said:

Jesus was very clear on the fulfillment of "eschatology". Thus setting the standard for how to interpret the OT.

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But there are still things that the both He and the OT have both foretold that have not come to pass yet. What we accept as having come to pass are what He and the Apostles have declared to have been fulfilled.

claninja said:

Jesus explains the parable of the sower (matthew 13:18-23) and the parable of the weeds (matthew 13:36-42). If Jesus explains the parable of the hidden treasure and pearl in matthew 13 please point to the verses in order to substantiate your claim.

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The intent of the hidden parable treasure and the substantiation of my claim are staring you right in the face every time you read it. If you read about what the merchant did to obtain the pearl of great price and what that pearl is compared to, you may begin to figure it out.

Contenders Edge said:

Revelation chapter 5: A sealed book of which only Christ is worthy to open. There is something about that book that makes no one else but Jesus worthy to open it. It has been believed that the seals not only represent a series of events to take place in the tribulation, but that the act of breaking open the seals is also the act of laying or enforcing claim to something that pertains to the earth.

Title deeds were once closed with seals but only the rightful recipient of that deed could break the seal. If indeed the book being opened is the title deed to the earth, then Christ at that moment in time is doing something that man disqualified himself from and which Lucifer was given no right to do and prevented from doing, even though by causing Adam to disqualify himself, he usurped what was originally given to man.

In breaking open the seals of the book, Christ is demonstrating His rightful claim and ownership of the earth and thus begins the process of bringing His rule directly to the earth and casting Satan out of it.

A consequence of man's sin: Not being able to exorcise the authority over all the earth in the manner that we otherwise would have been able to do. If Adam had not sinned, is it perhaps possible that man might have been given power even over Lucifer and his demons and even the ability to subdue them?

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That's total speculation and certainly not based on scripture.

Those seals contained the judgment of Jerusalem/Israel. It's not hard why Jesus is worthy to open the book...it tells you in Revelation 5:9. It's not a deed...it's judgment upon Israel for breaking the Old Covenant they made with God at Exodus 24:3-8. It is the book Daniel was told to seal up in Daniel 12:9.

keras said:

Actually, the final conquest and removal of the Jews happened in 135 AD, 100 years later.

Jesus said many things that still remain to happen. Luke 21:25-28 for example.

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I believe that Jesus was not mistaken when He said that all will happen in his generation.

It is written that all the blood, from Abel to Zacharias will be punished on that generation. Jesus also said that there will never be worse situation than that.

Therefore to say that it did not happen or that something was worse 100 years later, is unbelief.

I do not want to read my bible with "this did not happen, that did not happen, Jesus was wrong here, Jesus was wrong there, Paul was wrong here, Paul was wrong there, first church was wrong here, first church was wrong there...".

solid_core said:

I believe that Jesus was not mistaken when He said that all will happen in his generation.

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But what the Bible prophets said; didn't all happen then.
Matthew 24:34 should be read: Truly I tell you, the generation present will live to see it all.
Proved by Jesus saying: When the fig tree buds, then summer is near. Meaning: When Judah is regathered into the holy Land, then the end of the age is near.

It is our generation that has seen the fig tree, symbolic of Judah, regather and establish their own State. This was a miracle in itself.

Jesus was not mistaken, the translators were and people like you grab onto it because you don't want to face the prospect of dramatic happenings during your lifetime.

solid_core said:

I believe that Jesus was not mistaken when He said that all will happen in his generation.

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In Daniel 12, the abomination of desolation prophecy takes place when travel and knowledge increased, Daniel 12:4.

The first century is not a fit, but this century is.

Jesus did not say his generation. Just the opposite, Jesus gave the parable of the fig tree to know what generation. Jerusalem is represented as the fig tree, because Jesus cursed the fig tree beside the road, as he and the disciples were about to enter Jerusalem, Jesus knowing that Jerusalem would reject him.

Psalms 90, the length of a generation is 70 years, or by strength 80 years.

Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967. We are not allowed to give dates in this forum. But the information is there, to know it was not in the first century.

ebedmelech said:

That's total speculation and certainly not based on scripture.

Those seals contained the judgment of Jerusalem/Israel. It's not hard why Jesus is worthy to open the book...it tells you in Revelation 5:9. It's not a deed...it's judgment upon Israel for breaking the Old Covenant they made with God at Exodus 24:3-8. It is the book Daniel was told to seal up in Daniel 12:9.

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The events associated with the seals pertain to the entire earth, not Israel and as for your claim that the book being opened by Christ was the one Daniel was told to seal up, that is pure speculation.

Contenders Edge said:

No, it does not because Luke never calls any army the Abomination of Desolation, and what this AOD and the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians have in common is that they are in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God. That is how the AOD is identified also as that man of sin. There is no way that the two have nothing to do with one another.

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I didn't read Claninja's post to say that Luke called the Roman army the Abomination of Desolation. Instead - I understood him to say that Luke associates the armies surrounding Jerusalem with the time to flee. I don't know how a person can dispute that - it's clearly written in Luke (and the parallel is in Matthew -where Jesus gave this instruction) as to the sign/signal for them to flee:

Contenders Edge said:

People were already worshipping apart from the Temple before it was destroyed, and if they were already worshipping apart from the Temple, then they certainly were not worshipping in association with it.

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Never argued that people worshiped outside of the temple or outside of Jerusalem while the temple stood. There were synagogues all over the roman empire where prayers were said and the torah was read. But that is not what we are talking about. We are specifically talking about worship in Jerusalem in association with the temple from John 4:21. Jesus specifically stated a time was coming when they would no longer worship in Jerusalem.

Reading through the book of Acts, we can see believing Jews continued to go up to the temple to worship in Jerusalem long after the cross.

Contenders Edge said:

That is because Jerusalem was being controlled and occupied by the Gentiles before the Israelis took it completely back in 1967. A case cannot easily be made for a symbolic forty two months either. The only way that could be possible is if it could be figured out what the forty-two months represent.

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This doesn't settle the contradictions with your belief:

if Jesus associated 1st century Jerusalem being trampled by the nations until the time of the nations was fulfilled, and revelation states that the nations would trample Jerusalem for 42 months, then either:

1.) the 2 passages are unrelated (which doesn't make any sense considering they both end with the coming of Christ)

2.) Jesus was wrong( I think we can both agree that’s not true)

3.) 42 months is symbolic (which would contradict your interpretation style as there is no explanation for the 42 months being symbolic)

4.) Jesus was right, and everything he stated occurred in that generation, as he stated it would (Luke 21:31-32)

I'll stick with number 4. But maybe you could provide another option that helps solve the contradictions of your position.

Contenders Edge said:

But there was no AOD in 70 A.D. Just the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

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Technically the believers fled in66ad. But that's your opinion, which is contrary to the parallel accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

The armies surrounding Jerusalem and the AOD are both signs that the generation was to flee Jerusalem. Whether they are the same or not, is up for debate, but not the time frame nor fulfillment.

Contenders Edge said:

That could arguably have been the case for Solomon's Temple but not the Temple in Ezekiel's vision. No Temple of that description and size has ever been built.

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That conclusion is drawn from eschatological bias and not scripture. Scripture is very clear that the tabernacle is only a man made copy of the true heavenly sanctuary

Hebrews 9:23-24 So it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God.

Additionally Paul even quotes from Ezekiel in regards to the body of Christ being the true interpretation of the temple of God.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is among them forever.’”

2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them,
and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

Please provide even 1 scripture from the NT that mentions a future literal earthly temple where the believers of the God will worship to substantiate your position.

Contenders Edge said:

But there are still things that the both He and the OT have both foretold that have not come to pass yet. What we accept as having come to pass are what He and the Apostles have declared to have been fulfilled.

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Jesus stated it would all come to pass in their generation. Should I not then believe Jesus' words?

Luke 21:32-33 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Contenders Edge said:

The intent of the hidden parable treasure and the substantiation of my claim are staring you right in the face every time you read it. If you read about what the merchant did to obtain the pearl of great price and what that pearl is compared to, you may begin to figure it out.

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Sure then just please post the specific verse, where Jesus explains all the parts of the parables of the hidden treasure and pearl, just like he did for the parable of the weeds and the parable of the sower.

You stated all things must be explained otherwise they should be taken literally. If it is explained, I shouldn't have to "figure it out". I should just be able to read Jesus' explanation. So please point to that verse.

Contenders Edge said:

But there was no AOD in 70 A.D. Just the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

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From what I understand - the followers of Christ's instruction left Judea earlier than 70 AD. The Jewish-Roman War began in 66 AD. Eusebius said that the church in Jerusalem was warned to flee “before the war,” which Josephus said began in August 66 AD (Wars 2.17.2). It would be too late, if they'd left in 70 AD.

mkgal1 said:

I didn't read Claninja's post to say that Luke called the Roman army the Abomination of Desolation. Instead - I understood him to say that Luke associates the armies surrounding Jerusalem with the time to flee. I don't know how a person can dispute that - it's clearly written in Luke (and the parallel is in Matthew -where Jesus gave this instruction) as to the sign/signal for them to flee:

Luke 21:20-21: But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

Matthew 24:15-16
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.



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You must have overlooked the following where Claninja said:


"Your statement of the AOD not being tied to an army contradicts the parallel account in luke, which associates the armies surrounding Jerusalem with the time to flee. You state the man of sin in 2 thessalonians 2 is the AOD, but 2 thessalonians 2 does not specifically say that."



Since he does not believe in a literal Anti-Christ who will rule the entire world, and because he does not believe that another Jewish Temple will be restored in which the Anti-Christ will demand to be worshipped as God, he believes that the abomination of desolation is but symbolic instead of literal and has attempted to apply it to a number of things to which he believes the title applies but the figures and people to whom he applies the AOD do not fit his descriptions or actions.

But if at anytime I have misunderstood the intended meaning behind Claninja's statements or those of any other participants on this thread, then it is up to them give clarification to the intent of what they post so as to make sure that their intended meanings are clearly understood.

As for the cite passages from Luke and Matthew, both the appearance of the abomination of desolation and the armies surrounding Jerusalem are times during which the people of God are instructed to flee and flee quickly, but where the debate rages is whether they are both speaking of the same event or two different events pertaining to Jerusalem, yet one thing is for certain: Allegorizing the accounts, although appearing to be an easy way to resolve the differences between the two accounts, does nothing to reconcile them since Christ did not present foretell the forthcoming events in allegorical terms, but literally.

Therefore, we are left with only two options:

1. Luke's account of the events foretold to come upon Jerusalem already came to pass but the Abomination of Desolation is yet to come, but in order for that to come to pass, another Temple in Jerusalem is required to be in place.

2. Some may attempt to argue that both accounts are speaking of the same event but which has not come to pass, but this is fraught with flaws of its own, just as the attempt to allegorize the accounts are fraught with their own failings.

And so therefore, the most viable explanation is that the Abomination of Desolation pertains to an event that is different from the events foretold in Luke. No such figure ever arose on the scene in 70 A.D. and while those with Preterist leanings have made a number of proposals for what this AOD may be, none of their proposals fit his description or actions.

mkgal1 said:

From what I understand - the followers of Christ's instruction left Judea earlier than 70 AD. The Jewish-Roman War began in 66 AD. Eusebius said that the church in Jerusalem was warned to flee “before the war,” which Josephus said began in August 66 AD (Wars 2.17.2). It would be too late, if they'd left in 70 AD.

Quoting Adam Maarschalk:
Josephus does record a mass exodus out of Judea, but it’s difficult to tell exactly when it happened. It took place while Gessius Florus was the Procurator of Judea (64-66 AD). He behaved wickedly toward the Jews, causing the Zealots to gain the upper hand in Judea. According to Josephus, “he spoiled whole cities, and ruined entire bodies of men at once… entire toparchies were brought to desolation, and a great many of the people left their own country, and fled into foreign provinces” (Wars 2.14.2).

The earliest major attack of Jerusalem by the Romans took place in November 66 AD when Cestius Gallus led an army toward Jerusalem to try to put down the rebellion there (Wars 2.19.2-9). The Jews who were gathered there for one of the feasts “saw the war approaching to their metropolis” (Wars 2.19.2). Cestius and his army approached from the northeast of Jerusalem, first observing the city from Mount Scopus, one of the seven mountains of Jerusalem (Wars 2.19.4). It appears that Cestius approached Jerusalem and entered it from one direction, rather than surrounding the city. This also took place several months after the war had begun. (According to Eusebius, the believers were warned to flee before the war began.)

In order to reconcile the account of Eusebius with the words of Jesus, Jerusalem needed to be surrounded by armies prior to the war, which began in August 66 AD, according to Josephus. Was there an earlier instance of Jerusalem being surrounded, which prompted the believers to flee? Consider this account by Josephus, which took place in April – May 66 AD:

“A few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities” (Wars 6.5.3).
​

Concerning “abominations,” note that Josephus said that Jerusalem was full of them by September 66 AD, two months before the Romans arrived. This is when the Zealot leader Manahem and his followers were slain in the temple and other parts of the city:

“The city was all over polluted with such abominations, from which it was but reasonable to expect some vengeance, even though they should escape revenge from the Romans…as likely themselves to undergo punishment for the wickedness of the seditious; for indeed it so happened that this murder was perpetrated on the sabbath day, on which day the Jews have a respite from their works on account of Divine worship” (Wars 2.17.10).
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While I would agree that the zealots were far from honorable men, they do not fit the description of the Abomination of Desolation. The AOD is a singular figure who is described to be sitting in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God. The zealots never went so far as to do that, despite the fact that the fear of God was not in them. General Titus, to his credit, revered the Temple and did not want it destroyed, yet was unable to restrain his troops from destroying it. It would seem that Titus may very well have had the fear of God in him to a certain extent in comparison to the zealots who seemed to have had none.

Contenders Edge said:

While I would agree that the zealots were far from honorable men, they do not fit the description of the Abomination of Desolation. The AOD is a singular figure who is described to be sitting in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God.

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These Church Fathers disagree, as do the overwhelming majority of historical true Church scholars and commentators prior to the 19th century.

325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:15) “–all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,– all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.” (Book III, Ch. 5)

375AD ‘John’ Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) “For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

419AD Augustine (On Matthew 24:15) “Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown.” (vol. 6, p. 170)

Contenders Edge said:

The events associated with the seals pertain to the entire earth, not Israel and as for your claim that the book being opened by Christ was the one Daniel was told to seal up, that is pure speculation.

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Not at all. Matthew 24:4-14 hints at the seals in a nutshell. In Revelation, Jesus' simply prophesied more directly.

When you don't allow scripture to interpret itself, you come up with the type conclusions you have. Take Daniel 12 for instance...the stage is set at Daniel 12:1:
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

You don't acknowledge that the book Jesus opens begins a time of "great distress" on the earth, just as was told Daniel, so you depart from what has been said to what you "think" it means.

Daniel 12:13:
13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”

What age is ending???