When did the Old Covenant cease?

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,544.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SkyWriting

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Written about 60 ad:

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

Not that it had disappeared yet.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The destruction of the temple and dispersion of the Jews in 70 A.D. put the final stamp on the transition from old to new. Even the disciples kept the law during that period.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rnmomof7
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,544.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The destruction of the temple and dispersion of the Jews in 70 A.D. put the final stamp on the transition from old to new. Even the disciples kept the law during that period.

What evidence can you bring to confirm that the disciples continued to keep the Law ?
 
Upvote 0

solid_core

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2019
2,695
1,579
Vienna
✟50,919.00
Country
Austria
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.
I think it was a process.

It started to be finished with John the Baptist ("Law and Prophets till John"), then with the service of Jesus Christ ("If I cast out demons with the power of God, the kingdom of heaven has already come to you"), with His death and resurrection, with the coming of the Holy Spirit and the last thing was the destruction of the temple and coming of the Son of man in 70 AD.

So it was a 40 years long process, culminating more and more till its final point.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.
Change never comes easily - and it seems to me there was a time of struggle (and, perhaps, grace) for 40 years after the crucifixion of Christ from the Old Covenant to the full completion into the New Covenant. Like the author of Hebrews says:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

With the curtain to the Holy of Holies being torn - the duties of the (human) High Priest was immediately stripped from that office as Yom Kippur could no longer be carried out with the curtain torn. (I believe) that office was immediately taken over by Christ as our High Priest - but not all was fulfilled as of that point. There was still more to yet be fulfilled at that time (according to what the Torah pointed to in the feasts). The next in line to be fulfilled was the feast of Pentecost/Feast of Weeks.

Leviticus 23:15-16 ~ ‘You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. ‘You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the LORD.

"This was fulfilled at Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. Just as the Spirit was given on Pentecost and the Church was born and 3000 were make spiritually alive in conversion this filled the type to a tee as well. It was on the feast of Pentecost that the nation of Israel was born and 3000 died."

Quoting from linked article:
50th Day After Jesus’ Resurrection, Acts 2:1-41 50th Day After Jesus’ Resurrection, Acts 2:1-41 | Bibleview
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Written about 60 ad:

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

Not that it had disappeared yet.
COOL!

My first thought before clicking into the thread, just reading the title of the thread, was "DID the old covenant cease?"
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Something else about the curtain being torn that covered the Holy of Holies - it exposed that the Ark of the Covenant was not there - the Holy of Holies had been vacant for 400 years as the Ark is where it was understood that the Presence of God resided.

Exodus 25:21-22 ~ "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you. "There I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel.
The last historical mention of the Ark in Scripture is in 2 Chronicles chapter 35, where King Josiah (who reigned in Judah c. 640-609 BC) asked the Levites to return the Ark to the Temple where Solomon had originally housed it after completing and dedicating the Temple sometime in the 10th century BC (2 Chronicles, chapter 5).

The Ark seems to have disappeared sometime immediately prior to the Babylonian Captivity in the 6th century BC. Before the destruction of the Temple, Jeremiah, according to the apocryphal book of 2 Maccabees chapter 2 (verses 1-8), we read that the prophet Jeremiah "following a divine revelation, ordered that the tent and the Ark should accompany him and how he went off to the mountain which Moses climbed to see God's inheritance. When Jeremiah arrived there, he found a room in a cave in which he put the tent, the Ark, and the altar of incense; then he blocked up the entrance."


Neither Zeruabbabel's Temple, which was built after Persia released Israel from Babylonian captivity, nor the Herodian Temple, which was built at the time of the Messiah, had an Ark of the Covenant within.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
So it was a 40 years long process
Something that I find interesting is that the number 40 is said to represent a period of time between two distinct epochs all throughout the Bible (it also represents "a generation" - "this generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened" Matthew 24:34) ~ 40 (number) - Wikipedia


  • Rain fell for "forty days and forty nights" during the Flood (Genesis 7:4).
  • Noah waited for forty days after the tops of mountains were seen after the flood, before releasing a raven (Genesis 8:5-7).
  • Spies were sent by Moses to explore the land of Canaan (promised to the children of Israel) for "forty days" (Numbers 13:2, 25).
  • The Hebrew people lived in the lands outside of the promised land for "forty years". This period of years represents the time it takes for a new generation to arise (Numbers 32:13).
  • Several Jewish leaders and kings are said to have ruled for "forty years", that is, a generation. Examples include Eli (1 Samuel 4:18), Saul (Acts 13:21), David (2 Samuel 5:4), and Solomon (1 Kings 11:42).
  • Goliath challenged the Israelites twice a day for forty days before David defeated him (1 Samuel 17:16).
  • Moses spent three consecutive periods of "forty days and forty nights" on Mount Sinai:
  1. He went up on the seventh day of Sivan, after God gave the Torah to the Jewish people, in order to learn the Torah from God, and came down on the seventeenth day of Tammuz, when he saw the Jews worshiping the Golden Calf and broke the tablets (Deuteronomy 9:11).
  2. He went up on the eighteenth day of Tammuz to beg forgiveness for the people's sin and came down without God's atonement on the twenty-ninth day of Av (Deuteronomy 9:25).
  3. He went up on the first day of Elul and came down on the tenth day of Tishrei, the first Yom Kippur, with God's atonement (Deuteronomy 10:10).
  • A mikvah consists of 40 se'ah (approximately 200 U.S. gallons or 760 liters) of water
  • The prophet Elijah had to walk 40 days and 40 nights before arriving at mount Horeb (1 Kings 19:8).
  • 40 lashes is one of the punishments meted out by the Sanhedrin (Deuteronomy 25:3), though in actual practice only 39 lashes were administered.[9]
  • (Numbers 14:33–34) alludes to the same[clarification needed] with ties to the prophecy in The Book of Daniel. "For forty years—one year for each of the forty days you explored the land—you will suffer for your sins and know what it is like to have me against you."
  • One of the prerequisites for a man to study Kabbalah is that he is forty years old.
  • "The registering of these men was carried on cruelly, zealously, assiduously, from the rising of the sun to its going down, and was not brought to an end in forty days" (3 Maccabees 4:15).
  • Before his temptation, Jesus fasted "forty days and forty nights" in the Judean desert (Matthew 4:2, Mark 1:13, Luke 4:2).
  • Forty days was the period from the resurrection of Jesus to the ascension of Jesus (Acts 1:3).
  • According to Stephen, Moses' life is divided into three 40-year segments, separated by his growing to adulthood, fleeing from Egypt, and his return to lead his people out (Acts 7:23,30,36).
  • In modern Christian practice, Lent consists of the 40 days preceding Easter. In much of Western Christianity, Sundays are excluded from the count; in Eastern Christianity, Sundays are included.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: solid_core
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
Has the Old Covenant totally ended? Pope Francis stressed on January 17, 2016 the "irrevocability" of God's covenant with the Jews. You know, for those of you who believe that the entire Bible is the word of God, that includes the Old Testament. What does the Old Testament say about the Passover? It says that the Jews are to keep the Passover forever. It does not say, just keep the Passover until the Messiah comes. Exodus 12:14 says, "And this day shall be unto you a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever".

Now why would God tell the Israelites to keep an ordinance forever, throughout their generations, if He knew that he was going to break His covenant with them and establish a new one for them, upon the coming of the Messiah? At the very least, those of you insist that all of the Bible is God's word, should admit that Jews who convert to Christianity are still bound by the Passover ordinance and are obligated to keep the Passover feast, forever. After all, virtually all of you who insist that the Bible is God's word say that when Jesus said Hell is eternal punishment, He meant what he said. Fine, then why does "forever" not mean forever, when it comes to the Jews keeping the Passover feast?

Before I get ton of posts criticizing me, I am not saying that the Old Covenant is still in effect or that it has ended. However, I am saying that the Passover feast memorial is still in effect for all Jews, whether they stay Jews or convert to Christianity as Messianic Jews.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What evidence can you bring to confirm that the disciples continued to keep the Law ?
The Council at Jerusalem (which is believed to have occurred around 48 AD). The decision was for Gentiles to follow the instruction from the Law of Moses that were to keep people distanced from practices of idolatry.

Acts 15:28-29 ~ “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dave-W
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Has the Old Covenant totally ended? Pope Francis stressed on January 17, 2016 the "irrevocability" of God's covenant with the Jews. You know, for those of you who believe that the entire Bible is the word of God, that includes the Old Testament. What does the Old Testament say about the Passover? It says that the Jews are to keep the Passover forever. It does not say, just keep the Passover until the Messiah comes. Exodus 12:14 says, "And this day shall be unto you a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever".

Now why would God tell the Israelites to keep an ordinance forever, throughout their generations, if He knew that he was going to break His covenant with them and establish a new one for them, upon the coming of the Messiah? At the very least, those of you insist that all of the Bible is God's word, should admit that Jews who convert to Christianity are still bound by the Passover ordinance and are obligated to keep the Passover feast, forever.
I believe that what Pope Francis was referring to, when he stated that the covenant "had never been revoked", was God's promises to Abraham (recorded in Genesis 12). The only theocracy that's a Great Nation is the Kingdom of God - that's the only eternally great nation that cannot (will not) be shaken.

Genesis 12:1-2 ~
Now the LORD said to Abram,
“Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;

And
I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
 
Upvote 0

pdudgeon

Traditional Catholic
Supporter
In Memory Of
Aug 4, 2005
37,777
12,353
South East Virginia, US
✟493,233.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.
The authority of the Priesthood was not withdrawn, it was fulfilled in Jesus, our Great High Priest. The Earthly Temples remain until the Earth is finally transformed by God.
The Temple in Heaven exists and remains because we do have a Great High Priest, who receives our prayers and sacrifices for the attonement of our sins.

Jesus fulfilled the Law to show that it was possible to fulfill it perfectly, but it still exists (as does sin) because man was not made for the Law, but the Law was made for man to show all of us how to live our lives according to God's will for us.
We need the guidelines in the same way that all sheep need a fenced, safe pasture in which to live, lest they wander off and become lunch for the wolves.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
The authority of the Priesthood was not withdrawn, it was fulfilled in Jesus, our Great High Priest. The Earthly Temples remain until the Earth is finally transformed by God.
The Temple in Heaven exists and remains because we do have a Great High Priest, who receives our prayers and sacrifices for the attonement of our sins.

Jesus fulfilled the Law to show that it was possible to fulfill it perfectly, but it still exists (as does sin) because man was not made for the Law, but the Law was made for man to show all of us how to live our lives according to God's will for us.
We need the guidelines in the same way that all sheep need a fenced, safe pasture in which to live, lest they wander off and become lunch for the wolves.
Oh,
Jesus told the permanent students: I am sending you out as sheep, in the midst of ravenous wolves. (besides the times when in green pastures and still waters)
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The authority of the Priesthood was not withdrawn, it was fulfilled in Jesus, our Great High Priest.
I agree that "fulfill" is a much more accurate word - just as Jesus Himself had said, "I didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17).
 
  • Winner
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.


The Old Covenant died at the resurrection. Ad 70 is just the formal acknowledgement of that fact, since talking about what the New Covenant was about was a bit of an undertaking especially with regards to the gentiles entering the Church, and other related issues concerning Christ, Salvation etc.


Another issue of things was it was beneficial in the early years for the Church to ride the coat tails of the Old Covenant so to speak as far as preaching goes, so keeping the temple around a bit, folks going to synagogue helped a lot to spread the word to the folks the message was originally given to.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Feasts-of-Israel-Calendar.jpg


Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Quoting Michael Krall:
"In Leviticus 27:34 the last verse in the book says this “These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.”

It is in the book of Leviticus that the ceremonial aspects of the law is clearly laid out. In chapter 23 we read of the 7 feast days which is what we hope to focus on in looking at the fulfilling of the law.


Lets look at the 7 feast days and see when they were or will be fulfilled. There were 4 spring feasts and 3 fall feasts.


Lets look at them in Leviticus 23.

5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Here we have the first 2 feasts Passover and the feast of unleavened bread. The Passover clearly pointed to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. But that is the only feast day that points to the cross so how can the whole of the law be fulfilled at the cross?

The feast of unleavened bread, leaven typifies corruption, pointed to his burial where his body was prophesied to not see corruption Psalm 16:10. this followed the next day in the Jewish calendar as it followed in the fulfillment seeing Christ was not only our Passover 1Cor 5:7 he not only died on Passover but was buried on the feast of unleavened bread.

Next is the feast of first fruits:

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:​

This feast alone should forever put to rest the notion that the law was fulfilled at the cross since it points to the resurrection of Christ, He being the “first fruits of them that slept 1Cor 15:20.” Christ again followed the type to a tee. He was raised on the feast of first fruits Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. Again Christ filled the type to a tee.

Next is the feast of weeks which was 50 days from the first fruits:

15 ¶ And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.


This was obviously fulfilled at Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. Just as the Spirit was given on Pentecost and the Church was born and 3000 were make spiritually alive in conversion this filled the type to a tee as well. It was on the feast of Pentecost that the nation of Israel was born and 3000 died." ~ Michael Krall
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Paul himself went to the temple as did others...
The disciples were in transition from law to grace during the era of the New Testament. This transition from law to grace took decades to occur.

Paul did attend synagogues in the early era of Christianity but after continuous opposition from the Jews. Paul then left the synagogues and took up the task of taking the gospel to the gentile world.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0