The Japanese Christians forced to trample on Christ

A Gerbil said:

This practice of stepping on Christian images - known as fumie - was widespread in the city of Nagasaki in the 17th century.'



Source: The Japanese Christians forced to trample on Christ; Yvette Tan; BBC News; 24 November 2019

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But no more.
Japanese have came a long way.
M

A Gerbil said:

From the BBC:

'A man waits nervously in line to be called. When he hears his name he steps forward, watched closely by local and government officials from the capital, who have been sent down specially for the occasion.

In front of the man is a small bronzed image fixed with the image of Jesus Christ on the cross. The man is told to step on it.

If he does, it's a public declaration that he has given up his faith - and he will live to see another day. If he doesn't, he could face execution, crucifixion or torture - forced into boiling hot springs or suspended upside down in a pit of excrement.

Any sign of hesitation could cost him his life.

This practice of stepping on Christian images - known as fumie - was widespread in the city of Nagasaki in the 17th century.'

Source: The Japanese Christians forced to trample on Christ; Yvette Tan; BBC News; 24 November 2019

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Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you. Our hope is the resurrection: With our Lord raising us unto eternal life into his perfect love for evermore .

The book and the movie Silence was based on this. Would you trample the fumie to stop the persecution of another?

Christianity ( Catholic ) came to Japan in the 16th century.
- During severe persecution in the 17th century, many went 'underground'.
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Interesting to note:
Modern Japan is one of countries: very resistant/not much openness.. to Gospel/Evangel.
- Not sure..whether '17th century experience' is one of contributing factors.

public hermit said:

The book and the movie Silence was based on this. Would you trample the fumie to stop the persecution of another?

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Never knew about the book or the movie. Shall look the movie up some time. ( Would one trample apon the Fumie to stop the persecution of another ) Hermit I’m sure we would all like to say that we would not. But who knows how one would react under the threat of being boiled alive or hung upside in a pit of human excrement. We all do have hidden fears we that we mostly keep to ourselves. Thankfully we have the example of the apostle Peter to look back on if we should fail our Lord.

Kate30 said:

Never knew about the book or the movie. Shall look the movie up some time. ( Would one trample apon the Fumie to stop the persecution of another ) Hermit I’m sure we would all like to say that we would not. But who knows how one would react under the threat of being boiled alive or hung upside in in a pit of human excrement. We all do have hidden fears we do mostly keep to ourselves. Thankfully we have the example of the apostle Peter to look back on if we should fail our Lord.

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I appreciate your response. The question that the book raises (spoiler alert) is not "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of ourselves?" But rather, "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of someone else." It's a very different question and one worth my consideration as a Christian.

public hermit said:

I appreciate your response. The question that the book raises (spoiler alert) is not "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of ourselves?" But rather, "Would we step on it to stop the persecution of someone else." It's a very different question and one worth my consideration as a Christian.

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To deny the Lord or trample apon his image in order to save others from persecution. In this case certain death. Ok say if you had some 200 passengers on a hijacked plane. And the demand was that you personally denounce your faith or each shall each die one by one. Hermit it’s not a pleasant thought. There are laws such as under duress that do vindicate people of denying their faith under certain circumstances both within the the laws of church and state . Something to look into deeper of what God would expect from us in such circumstances.

Shusaku Endo's novel Silence is a very good investigation of the ideas and spiritual journey inherent in denying Christ while staying Christian. It is a very good book to read on this subject, though some of the descendants of the hidden Christians weren't too pleased by it.

Quid est Veritas? said:

Shusaku Endo's novel Silence is a very good investigation of the ideas and spiritual journey inherent in denying Christ while staying Christian. It is a very good book to read on this subject, though some of the descendants of the hidden Christians weren't too pleased by it.

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Thanks for the authors full name. I do look forward to reading as well.

You know, I have a different view of this, and it should be relevant to you non-Catholics as well. We always say that we do not worship images of saints, and you guys always say we shouldn't worship graven images. So if we don't, and you believe we shouldn't, isn't it irrelevant that Christians would be forced to step on a crucifix? What does it really mean? The image is not Christ. So can we believe that it is not an undoing of anything, but a symbol? And if the one stepping on the crucifix doesn't believe he's desecrating Christ, is he? Also, being forced to do something under great duress makes the action not sinful.

The movie Silence is an excellent film, I saw it a while ago. It was harrowing to watch and really caused me to think deeply, it was humbling too what the Christians endured. I knew nothing at all about this part of history and I would highly recommend it to anyone to watch. Its a film I will never forget.

Root of Jesse said:

You know, I have a different view of this, and it should be relevant to you non-Catholics as well. We always say that we do not worship images of saints, and you guys always say we shouldn't worship graven images. So if we don't, and you believe we shouldn't, isn't it irrelevant that Christians would be forced to step on a crucifix? What does it really mean? The image is not Christ. So can we believe that it is not an undoing of anything, but a symbol? And if the one stepping on the crucifix doesn't believe he's desecrating Christ, is he? Also, being forced to do something under great duress makes the action not sinful.

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Very relevant point .

Root of Jesse said:

You know, I have a different view of this, and it should be relevant to you non-Catholics as well. We always say that we do not worship images of saints, and you guys always say we shouldn't worship graven images. So if we don't, and you believe we shouldn't, isn't it irrelevant that Christians would be forced to step on a crucifix? What does it really mean? The image is not Christ. So can we believe that it is not an undoing of anything, but a symbol? And if the one stepping on the crucifix doesn't believe he's desecrating Christ, is he? Also, being forced to do something under great duress makes the action not sinful.

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It would be sinful to deny Christ, as some large number in China did when offered to spare their own life if they denied Christ.
Millions of people were involved.
Thankfully, MANY did NOT deny Christ, and they were put to death at once.
The sorrow is that MANY did deny Christ (apparently), and their fate is far worse.
THe pastors that had taught them not to worry - they would be raptured not having to suffer on this world, wept for a long time because they had not told their congregations the truth, and many denied Jesus because the believed the pastors that they would not have to suffer....
Corrie ten Boom often related this testimony, and others, about the congregations in Africa also, being slaughtered for their faith (not given a choice either)..
The early Christians in one place brought all their books of pharmakeia / witchcraft/ sorcery/ , THOUSANDS of dollars worth, and burned them publicly all together, renouncing the witchcraft and idolatry involved,
so they likely would have burned all the crucifixes also, if they had any,
in repentance for idolatry and for having graven images.
All this never at all denying Christ, but in obedience to Him.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It would be sinful to deny Christ, as some large number in China did when offered to spare their own life if they denied Christ.
Millions of people were involved.
Thankfully, MANY did NOT deny Christ, and they were put to death at once.
The sorrow is that MANY did deny Christ (apparently), and their fate is far worse.
THe pastors that had taught them not to worry - they would be raptured not having to suffer on this world, wept for a long time because they had not told their congregations the truth, and many denied Jesus because the believed the pastors that they would not have to suffer....
Corrie ten Boom often related this testimony, and others, about the congregations in Africa also, being slaughtered for their faith (not given a choice either)..
The early Christians in one place brought all their books of pharmakeia / witchcraft/ sorcery/ , THOUSANDS of dollars worth, and burned them publicly all together, renouncing the witchcraft and idolatry involved,
so they likely would have burned all the crucifixes also, if they had any,
in repentance for idolatry and for having graven images.
All this never at all denying Christ, but in obedience to Him.

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Jeff you say it would be sinful to deny Christ. Sadly that is our inherited nature so sin is sin and being only something that our Lord could ever deal with. Unless of course you class that being in the category of a unforgivable sin. I’m sure that we would all like to think that we would never deny our Lord. But there is a much deeper question here. And that being if the choice of denying our Lord means the difference of saving thousands of lives and if that choice were solely yours just what would you do? And would it really affect your relationship with God in whom you have already come to know. You have already been brought at a great price have you not. So Never mind so much about the rapture into the heavens for we are all mere mortals here. Our hope is in the resurrection when ever that appointed time shall come to be than we shall surely meet our Lord. Jeff as to crucifixes I’m not too sure why they should be burned. Why do you think?

Foxes Book of Martyrs shows clearly through the centuries that the faithful will rather die painfully, withe their own children, spouses, parents and fellow believers, than deny Jesus at all, ever.

As written, if anyone denies Me, I WILL DENY THEM, before MY FATHER in heaven....
Since JESUS is THE ONLY advocate we have before the Father in heaven,
... then if Jesus Denies someone before His Father in heaven,
it is too late for them....

MATTHEW 10:33 KJV "But whosoever shall deny me before men ...
MATTHEW 10:33 KJV "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
But whosoeuer shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heauen. - King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Foxes Book of Martyrs shows clearly through the centuries that the faithful will rather die painfully, withe their own children, spouses, parents and fellow believers, than deny Jesus at all, ever.

As written, if anyone denies Me, I WILL DENY THEM, before MY FATHER in heaven....
Since JESUS is THE ONLY advocate we have before the Father in heaven,
... then if Jesus Denies someone before His Father in heaven,
it is too late for them....

MATTHEW 10:33 KJV "But whosoever shall deny me before men ...
MATTHEW 10:33 KJV "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
But whosoeuer shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heauen. - King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

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Jeff that’s all well and good with what scripture says and when it only involves yourself and no one else. But since your last reply another 60 people’s have lost their heads only another 300 to go. So I do ask you once more. What shall it be? A simple Yes or a simple No. Anyway I’m sure their loved ones shall understand after all it’s a question of law. But do remember if NO be your final reply than you have to live with this on your conscious for the rest of your life.

Kate30 said:

But do remember if NO be your final reply than you have to live with this on your conscious for the rest of your life.

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If someone denies Christ, they will be denied before the Father. That is far far far far far far far WORSE than OBEYING CHRIST, and NOT DENYING HIM.
The conscious is CLEAR BY THE BLOOD OF HE LAMB, not by , no not ever by denying Christ the Savior.
"on your conscience" does not make sense - even to (so-called) 'save' ten thousand lives /nay, a million lives/ (hyperbole?) is NOT a reason at all, and never good reason, to deny Christ. TO have A CLEAR conscience BEFORE THE FATHER and JESUS _ never deny Christ, no never.
Just as Jesus relied on the Father for not only His Own Life, but also for the lives of the permanent disciples,
so also must we if we are to be faithful to Jesus and remain His and have His approval in front of the Father in heaven. WOE to anyone whom Jesus DENIES before the Father in heaven! Woe indeed! .

yeshuaslavejeff said:

If someone denies Christ, they will be denied before the Father. That is far far far far far far far WORSE than OBEYING CHRIST, and NOT DENYING HIM.
The conscious is CLEAR BY THE BLOOD OF HE LAMB, not by , no not ever by denying Christ the Savior.
"on your conscience" does not make sense - even to (so-called) 'save' ten thousand lives /nay, a million lives/ (hyperbole?) is NOT a reason at all, and never good reason, to deny Christ. TO have A CLEAR conscience BEFORE THE FATHER and JESUS _ never deny Christ, no never.
Just as Jesus relied on the Father for not only His Own Life, but also for the lives of the permanent disciples,
so also must we if we are to be faithful to Jesus and remain His and have His approval in front of the Father in heaven. WOE to anyone whom Jesus DENIES before the Father in heaven! Woe indeed! .

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. Jeff I’m not so sure that denouncing one’s Christian Faith under duress does change a believers relationship one bit in their love for the God. The apostle Peter did deny the Jesus thrice. Did the Heavenly Father ever say Woe that’s it for Peter Most certainly not. Instead he went onto a much higher calling with the Jesus acclaiming (this is Peter, and apon this rock-Peter I shall build my church. ) You may say that Peter went on to die for the faith later. And so he did: Everything in God’s time. Yes the hyperbole may be a exaggeration that we have both used and mentioned. But we both know how quickly that hyperbole can become a reality, so it really has meaning to the situation at hand. But the question must also be asked does forced conversion or forced denial really convert or exclude anyone to or from another faith. For all true conversations do begin with God. Jeff I do see your point of argument within scripture along with Foxes book of martyrs. Yes there are times when many have laid down their lives for the faith. And there are also other times when we must suffer the humiliation of our very own faith being denied in order to allow the church to survive and prosper for a latter time such as with Nagasaki. Perhaps death was the easier option, for to lose face in Asia is no light thing: more so in China, Korea and Japan it’s like a death sentence you must live with everyday.

Kate30 said:

. Jeff I’m not so sure that denouncing one’s Christian Faith under duress does change a believers relationship one bit in their love for the God.

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It does.
In Scripture, this is very clear,
and in Foxes Book of Martyrs, some people are shown who did renounce Jesus under threat of death - their physical life was spared for a time,
but they were immediately and totally despondent , depressed, and ended up far worse than those who were martyred.