Pope Cites French Epic Poem to Prove Christianity Is as Violent as Islam

thomas_t

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Well, technically, the Pope is the head of all Christendom, whether you like him or whether you consider him so, or not. Just as people have said Obama isn't my president or Trump isn't my president, well, honestly, in either case, he is.
Hi RoJ,
thank you for counting me in. However, Francis is not my head. He doesn't speak in my name.
Bible explains who is really the head of the Christian body: it's Jesus himself - Ephesians 1:22. The pope is not Jesus, please. ;)
Regards, Thomas
 
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Root of Jesse

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No. That's not the case, technically or in any other way. Your church's ecclesiology is its own, not shared by others and not an organic development from that of the early church, or in any way a preservation of it.
Logically and technically, it is the case. Jesus instituted one Church. We believe the Pope is the head of the one Church. We do not claim, as some do, that all other churches aren't valid, but are held under the umbrella of the one Church. Therefore, the Pope is the head of all Christendom. That is not to say all Christians follow him or obey him.
If Pope Francis is like Obama or Trump, then the patriarchs of the non-Catholic churches are more like the presidents or prime ministers of other countries: they don't say anything about his own status as 'president', but he's not the leader of their countries. He only leads his own.
Except that the Church is universal, Obama's country or Trump's country is not.
 
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Root of Jesse

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This pope acts very much like a Freemason. Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible.
I don't know about the first part, but totally agree with the second part.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Hi RoJ,
thank you for counting me in. However, Francis is not my head. He doesn't speak in my name.
Bible explains who is really the head of the Christian body: it's Jesus himself - Ephesians 1:22. The pope is not Jesus, please. ;)
Regards, Thomas
Never said Christ wasn't the head of His Church. Nor did I say the Pope is Jesus. The pope is Christ's vicar, his visible representative. And as I said to a previous poster, some people here in the US would tell you that Trump isn't their president, and yet he is, whether they like it or not, whether they follow or obey him, or not. Ergo, the Pope, appointed as the vicar of Christ, does represent all Christendom, whether or not the agree with him or follow him. Heck Joe Biden claims to be Catholic, but disagrees with the pope when politically expedient. There are lots of Catholics who didn't like or obey this pope or that pope.
 
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thomas_t

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The pope is Christ's vicar,
However, that's not Bible.
Bible frankly states who is the head: Jesus. Just as frankly Bible says who is his helper: it's the Holy Ghost. John 16:13. He came when Jesus went.
In short: the position as a head of Christian people: taken.
The position of His helper when he went to the father: also taken. Since there is a helper, no need for a vicar.
I hope you won't be too disappointed ;).
his visible representative
John 16:10 - 13 explains what Christians count on the moment they didn't see Jesus anymore: The Holy Ghost. He is enough, who is in need of any such representative you are speaking of.
I'm a Christian but the pope does not represent me, can you accept this?
 
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Root of Jesse

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However, that's not Bible.
Bible frankly states who is the head: Jesus. Just as frankly Bible says who is his helper: it's the Holy Ghost. John 16:13. He came when Jesus went.
In short: the position as a head of Christian people: taken.
The position of His helper when he went to the father: also taken. Since there is a helper, no need for a vicar.
I hope you won't be too disappointed ;).

John 16:10 - 13 explains what Christians count on the moment they didn't see Jesus anymore: The Holy Ghost. He is enough, who is in need of any such representative you are speaking of.
I'm a Christian but the pope does not represent me, can you accept this?
Matthew 16:18-20 says otherwise. Christ said he would leave a human representative when He rose, too.
And it's not that the Pope is the head of Christian People. He is Jesus' representative, and Jesus is the head of Christian People, in fact all people whether they believe in Him or not.
 
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timothyu

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Therefore, the Pope is the head of all Christendom.
Jesus said His church was built upon truth of the Father, not of man. Any institution of man, especially one calling itself Christian that would abandon the Kingdom to partner with the secular government of man (accepting the offer of the Tempter that Jesus refused in the desert) is not of the Kingdom, but does serve a purpose to God in forwarding scriptures by use of the enemy. Gospel of the Kingdom hidden in plain sight in a religion that worships messenger but not message (the governance of God over the governance of man, not man using God to justify itself but changing to suit the will of God).
 
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Root of Jesse

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Jesus said His church was built upon truth of the Father, not of man. Any institution of man, especially one calling itself Christian that would abandon the Kingdom to partner with the secular government of man (accepting the offer of the Tempter that Jesus refused in the desert) is not of the Kingdom, but does serve a purpose to God in forwarding scriptures by use of the enemy. Gospel of the Kingdom hidden in plain sight in a religion that worships messenger but not message (the governance of God over the governance of man, not man using God to justify itself but changing to suit the will of God).
Where did I say the Church was built on a man? The Church was built on Christ, but upon the Rock of Peter.
I can agree that, through history the Church has gotten too close to secular government, but I'm not a member of that secular Church. I'm a member of the faith Christ taught, through the Catholic Church. The politics is ugly. I agree. That's why I pay attention to my faith, not my church's dawdling in political affairs, as Pope Francis is wont to do. In fact, it was the chumminess with the secular world that got the Church in trouble with the priest sex abuse crisis. In the 70's, the Church realized they had a problem, and didn't know what to do, so they consulted secular experts, who told them to rehabilitate them (using psychology) and repopulate them. Had they looked to God, we may have had a different outcome.
And there are many of us who take the message and not the messenger.
I think it's funny how often people will criticize the Catholic Church because of the actions of those who aren't acting Catholic. Even the hierarchy.
 
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timothyu

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Where did I say the Church was built on a man? The Church was built on Christ, but upon the Rock of Peter.
I'm sorry,, that is your belief.But the previous verse clearly said the rock His church would be built upon was truth from the Father but not from man. But yes, Peter spoke a truth from the Father but not from man as the others had done when asked the question by Jesus.

I can agree that, through history the Church has gotten too close to secular government, but I'm not a member of that secular Church. I'm a member of the faith Christ taught, through the Catholic Church
As mentioned the biggest betrayal to the Kingdom of God was the church uniting with the world of man officially 1700 yrs ago (but long before that also), in direct opposition to what was taught in the Gospel of the Kingdom.

I think it's funny how often people will criticize the Catholic Church because of the actions of those who aren't acting Catholic. Even the hierarchy.
Agreed, there are two opposing forces within the church. One intent on carrying on the traditions of man, and the other practising what Jesus commanded like putting the will of God ahead of man's will and loving all, including enemy as self, perhaps what Francis is trying to do..
 
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rturner76

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“mutual understanding between the world’s Christians and Muslims in order to build peace and justice.”
Christian values. Things like "making peace" "having a mutual understanding" doesn't sound like blasphemy to me.

Do you think the Pope may want to end violence in the middle east between the invading USA and the locals? Maybe it is more Christian to genocide all Muslims? No, "only love can conquer hate"
 
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rturner76

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I am getting so frustrated by people proclaiming that Pope Francis is denouncing the CHurch by being honest about the bloody history of ALL religions. I am frustrated by people who think it is the Pope's job to hate Muslims and call for their deaths.

No, it is the Pope's job to call for peace, find common ground and love his enemies as Christ told us to do. Francis is doing the right thing according to the Catechism:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day” (CCC 841)

I think the Pope read that if nobody else did. WHy would a Christian be against a Pope calling for peace instead of war? Would calling for the heads of Muslims make him righteous?
 
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thomas_t

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Christ said he would leave a human representative when He rose, too.
That's a tale (if you're referring to one human). There is no Bible verse indicating this. Matthew 16:18 talks about a rock that Jesus would build his church opon. There's no representative mentioned by ths verse.
"The pope] is Jesus' representative" you go on telling us. Hinting to the purported "Rock of Peter" answering another poster aluding to this very passage.
"Rock of Peter"? That's is according to you.
However, "Peter" in Greek doesn't mean rock. It means little stone. The verse reads "you are Peter ("petros"=little stone) and upon this rock ("petra") I will build my church" - Mt 16:18.
Peter was given the keys indeed (verse 19) - but years later he died, too. There is no Bible verse indicating how this went on after he died. The Holy Ghost, in contrast, doesn't die. I trust in him.
This has become a highjack of the OP's post. Can we get back on topic?
I beg to differ. You seem to keep on wanting to tell me who my boss is, I beg to post my opinion on it, too.

Thanks.
 
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dzheremi

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Logically and technically, it is the case.

Technically, it is the case that the Bishop of Alexandria is THE Pope, as HH St. Dionysius, Bishop of Rome, originally recognized him.

Rome's later claims to the Papacy, and even later claims of universal jurisdiction over all Christian churches and peoples, are something else, and those claims have never been recognized by the first Papal church in the world, that of Alexandria.

You are stating your own church's ecclesiology as though it is some kind of God-established fact, and it's just not. The historical record shows that even the (retroactive) Popes of Rome themselves recognized other bishops as their fathers and equals. Read some of your Pope Gregory's writings, wherein he calls the See of Peter that which is "in three places as the See of one", meaning that Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome are all "the See of St. Peter". Again, Rome's claims of exclusivity are a later development, and hence not accepted by any other apostolic church.

Jesus instituted one Church.

Yes.

We believe the Pope is the head of the one Church. We do not claim, as some do, that all other churches aren't valid, but are held under the umbrella of the one Church. Therefore, the Pope is the head of all Christendom. That is not to say all Christians follow him or obey him.

None of this matters. Again, stating your ecclesiology as though it exists independently of the very clear and obvious historical trajectory of the See of Rome, which only began espousing this ecclesiology in the fifth century (see, e.g., Pope Leo's letter in 445 to HH St. Dioscorus -- essentially, adopt these practices that Rome does, so that Rome and Alexandria may be "one in all things"), is a strange way of arguing. I could just as easily lean heavily on the Bishop of Alexandria's role in fixing the date of Easter (many centuries before Rome claimed the title of 'Pope' in any exclusive sense) by which he is called "Judge of the Universe", but that doesn't mean anything like what Rome claims for itself.

Put simply, there is no universal jurisdiction, and never has been, and never will be. This is one of Rome's very prominent ecclesiological heresies.

Except that the Church is universal, Obama's country or Trump's country is not.

That is exactly my point, yes. The Church is universal; Rome's part of the universe is the Roman Catholic Church and those in communion with it, not all Christians everywhere via some medieval fantasy/power grab of the Roman pontiff, which clearly failed as he is not and has never been recognized as being a higher authority than the autonomous patriarchs of the Church, over which he has never exercised any authority of himself whatsoever. Rome and Alexandria did not become 'one in all things' in 445 or ever. Rome's idea that you can find this or that letter that says this or that means nothing if it is removed from its context in order to be used to support a much later ecclesiological development that nobody else accepts. And that's all that RC apologists ever seem to do.
 
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rturner76

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None of this matters. Again, stating your ecclesiology as though it exists independently of the very clear and obvious historical trajectory of the See of Rome, which only began espousing this ecclesiology in the fifth century (see, e.g., Pope Leo's letter in 445 to HH St. Dioscorus -- essentially, adopt these practices that Rome does, so that Rome and Alexandria may be "one in all things"), is a strange way of arguing. I could just as easily lean heavily on the Bishop of Alexandria's role in fixing the date of Easter (many centuries before Rome claimed the title of 'Pope' in any exclusive sense) by which he is called "Judge of the Universe", but that doesn't mean anything like what Rome claims for itself.

Put simply, there is no universal jurisdiction, and never has been, and never will be. This is one of Rome's very prominent ecclesiological heresies.
My opinion is that because Roman Catholicism basically claimed western Europe and the United States (more recently). By doing that, the western world under Rome only accepts the Roman Bishop's Rule so in essence "the world" really meaning the western world which in many ways considers itself as "the whole world" because most westerners don care about or recognize anything in the East. That is why the attempted power grabs split the Church. The East was saying you were never the authority here and never will be while Rome was saying to the east come to heel or you are out of the "real church" because I am now the #1 Pope of all churches

It's a working theory anyway
 
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redleghunter

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My opinion is that because Roman Catholicism basically claimed western Europe and the United States (more recently). By doing that, the western world under Rome only accepts the Roman Bishop's Rule so in essence "the world" really meaning the western world which in many ways considers itself as "the whole world" because most westerners don care about or recognize anything in the East. That is why the attempted power grabs split the Church. The East was saying you were never the authority here and never will be while Rome was saying to the east come to heel or you are out of the "real church" because I am now the #1 Pope of all churches

It's a working theory anyway
The Western nations did circumnavigate the world.
 
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rturner76

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The Western nations did circumnavigate the world.
That's right, and right along with them, was the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Church did not do as much exploring from my understanding. It spread more organically.
 
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