Michael the Arch Angel = Jesus??? Again. Sorry!!!

I do not know about the language, but Church tradition says that Michael is the Archangel that that is God's defender against Satan and his demons.

Hello @icedragon101, what is said here....


....makes it impossible for me to confuse Michael the Archangel with the Lord Jesus/God the Son. Does it not for you as well?

--David

icedragon101 said:

I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?

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Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Michael is called Daniels "prince." What angel is called any mans' prince?

icedragon101 said:

that is not the question I asked and the Lord could be the Father there. so it is inconclusive, now back to Daniel 10 do you have anything to say about the grammer there in Daniel 10?

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"Lord" normally refers to the Lord Jesus in the NT. That said, did you take note of the other words that I put in bold for you above (in Jude 9)?

In case you did not, here they are again.

So Jesus, God the Son, did not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil? Really It seems to me that the only way that works is if Jesus is ~NOT~ God, not a member of the Godhead, but a creature instead.

Is that where you are hoping to go with this thread?

Thanks!

--David

icedragon101 said:

i am not sure how to respond to this? so you are saying that it can't be JESUS because he is not pronounc a railing judement? so you saying the lack of railing judgement is proof that it is not Jesus. So Jesus would have railed again the devil. not sure that is correct. I think it is just saying he did not argue with the Devil, he just said get lost. Don't think that is proof either way.

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Jesus is God. He is the Creator of all, and at the end of the age, He will be the Judge of all.

It's one thing to say that Michael, an angel, DID NOT DARE pronounce a judgment against the devil, but it's an entirely different thing to even consider the idea that ~God~ "did not dare" pronounce a railing judgment against him

So, unless Jesus is NOT God, or the Holy Writ is wrong, the created being, Michael the Archangel is NOT the Lord Jesus, his Creator.

--David

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish to believe

icedragon101 said:

I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?

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Hello, the one spoke to Daniel in Daniel 10, is Not Christ or Michael but could be Gabriel...Daniel 10:16 describe the one who spoke to him as..." The one who looked like a man"..

This is the same description of Gabriel in Daniel 8:15..there before me stood one who looked like a man...

icedragon101 said:

I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion.

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I don't know about Daniel or the language.
But Michael the arch angel is an arch angel - angels are created beings.
Jesus is the Word, John 1:14, eternal, John 1:1, divine, through whom ALL things, including angels, were created, John 1:1-2, Colossians 1:15-16.

As the title of your thread correctly states, they are different people.

icedragon101 said:

that is not enough for me to hang a belief on

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How about the whole of the Bible?
Scripture says that the Word was with God in the beginning, John 1:1, and all things were created through him, John 1:2-3, Colossians 1:15-16, Genesis 1:26.
Scripture says that Jesus is the Lamb of God, chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20, John 1:29.
Scripture says that the Word became flesh, John 1:14.
The angel told Joseph that Jesus would save people from their sins, Matthew 1:21. He told Mary that Jesus would be Son of the Most High, Luke 1:32-33.
Dozens of Scriptures foretell Jesus' birth, ministry, teaching, death, resurrection etc.
Jesus said that he shared the Father's glory before the world began, John 17:5.
Jesus said that he was the Messiah, John 4:26
The Jews knew that Jesus was claiming to be God and tried to stone him for it, John 8:58-59, John 10:33. Eventually they crucified him.
Paul says that Jesus is Lord, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 10:9 - and many others.

Scripture refers to Michael as an angel, Jude 9, Revelation 12:7.

icedragon101 said:

I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?

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First ... and foremost Jesus is NOT a created being.

The word angel in the bible means messenger ... sometimes it's used in regard to the actual angelic beings from heaven, sometimes in regard to humans ... and ... yes ... sometimes in regard to the divine. When used in regard to the divine that is in no way diminishing or changing the divine.

A good example is in Exodus

Exodus 3

1Meanwhile, Moses was shepherding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. He led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush

then of course ....

4When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called out to him from within the bush, “Moses, Moses!”

“Here I am,” he answered.5“Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”d 6Then He said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”e

At this, Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

So .. on Mt. Sinai ... God is described as the angel of the Lord .... this was Jesus.

John 1:18
Contemporary English Version
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

An arch angel is the leader or commander of angels ... and Jesus is just that. Back in OT days and during the days of the apostles etc. ... names had real meaning ... they were used to describe a persons character. The name Michael means ... one who is like God.

So the verse is describing one who is like God (Jesus), one who commands the angels and one who brings messages. Jesus certainly brought ALL many many messages. He is the supreme messenger of all time.

Remember God himself changed peoples names all the time .... ie Abram to Abraham ... Jacob to Israel ... Simon to Peter etc. (many other examples)

So Michael (one who is like God) ... yes .... Jesus is one who is like God ... and using the name Michael in no way changes His authority or Him being Gods one and only beloved son. Michael describes His character and His character is exactly like God.

icedragon101 said:

that is not the question I asked and the Lord could be the Father there. so it is inconclusive, now back to Daniel 10 do you have anything to say about the grammer there in Daniel 10?

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The Father is Lord
The Son is Lord
The Holy Spirit is Lord

Not three lords, but one Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud said:

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Michael is called Daniels "prince." What angel is called any mans' prince?

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Well, Michael. As the text says here.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud said:

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Michael is called Daniels "prince." What angel is called any mans' prince?

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Any angel that Yahuweh appoints as prince over a geographic area.