Does Jesus NOT know the day of his future second coming????

Does even Jesus NOT know exactly when he will return to the earth?

  • No... Jesus knows everything.

    Votes: 8 29.6%
  • Yes... that is what Jesus clearly said!

    Votes: 17 63.0%
  • What??????? That sounds really strange to me!

    Votes: 2 7.4%

  • Total voters
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Erik Nelson

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There is ONE God - a triune Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
That is N.O.T. the Nicene Creed

"We believe in One God, the Father..."

The Son is not that God, the Son is our Lord and the Lord over all created heaven & earth (John 5:22-27, Matthew 28:18)

The triune "Godhead" is N.O.T. The One True "God" The Father

"We believe in One God, the Father..."

You are taking liberties with the Nicene creed of "Victory"


The Son is the One through whom the universe was created and came into being. The Word was with the Father in the beginning and all things were created through him, John 1:2-3, Colossians 1:15-16, Hebrews 1:2-3.
of course, The Father made all things through His Words, Genesis 1:1



There is ONE God.
"We believe in One God, the Father..."



The Father, the Son and the Spirit are God - all of them.
ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
They are all God in essence & nature, i.e. they are all "Godly / Godlike / Divine"

but of the Godhead, only The Father is The God

"We believe in One God, the Father..."

This boils down to things like Genesis 1:1 and the Nicene Creed line 1

Yet Scripture states that all things were created through the Son; nothing exists, or could exist, without the Son.
by the sovereign Will of The God The Father, yes



There is one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God.
There is ONE God.
you are describing the triune Godhead

The Nicene Creed line one, phrase one, reads

"We believe in One God, the Father..."
NOT

"We believe in One God[head], the Father & Son & Spirit..."


Just as my brother is a father, a husband and a brother, yet one man.
He does not have the same relationship with his children as he has with his wife.
He does not have the same relationship with his wife as he has with me, (no way am I sleeping with him.)
When we are all together, he does not stop being a father when he is talking to his wife, or stop being a husband when he is talking to me.
so he has three different "modes" of interacting with the world?

That is "modalism"

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

"We believe in One God, the Father..."

When the Son was on earth, teaching, healing and saving; he did not stop being God.
You are confusing & conflating & combining & merging & smushing together the Person of God The Father and His Godly Godlike Divine Essence & Nature which is shared amongst all three Persons of the triune Godhead

When the Spirit of truth is leading us to Jesus, making us God's children, giving us gifts and so on, he does not stop being God.
and never once becomes The God The Father of Genesis 1:1



They are GOD; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Godhead is not God.

You think The Father somehow derives from the triune Godhead?

The Father generates the triune Godhead



We are created, individual, unique human beings - ALL made in the image of God to reflect his nature and glory.
we all have multiple person-ality disorder?

The Son and Spirit were not created; they are eternal.
absolutely, God's own Word & Spirit are just as transcendent & eternal, existing beyond creation, as The God The Father Himself



God the Father sent God the Son to die and redeem the world. After God the Son had been raised and ascended, he sent God the Spirit to live in us and guide us into all truth.
again, you're dropping the all important definite article, unambiguously present in the original inspired 1st century Greek

Somebody tell me how to say "Sola Scriptura" in Greek, please?

"The [one]" God the Father sent the Son, and "routes" His Spirit through the Son

The Father generates the Spirit, and the Spirit is directed by the Word

If Jesus was not God, then it was only a man who died on the cross, and he could not have saved us.
If Jesus was not God, he was a liar and a blasphemer, and not the spotless Lamb of God that Peter declared him to be, 1 Peter 1:19-20. Sinners cannot die for the sins of the world, so, if Jesus was not God, we have no Saviour.
If the Spirit is not God then he cannot know the mind of God, cannot intercede for us, and we do not have God himself living in us.
again, Jesus was God's Word incarnate

God's Word created the whole entire universe

God's Word can save one planet therein, yes?

I'm not diminishing God's Word, rather you are diminishing The God The Father

Please look up "Monarchy of the Father" -- ancient, Orthodox belief
 
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Erik Nelson

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Nonsense! Factually incorrect. Prove it if you can! I call this the "Neener, neener, neener I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument. You quoted Biblehub, does Biblehub support what I said or not? I just checked it does. "O theos" is literally" "the God" as I said. That is NOT hypothetical!
Thomas said "o theo mou" which is the nominative case.
You might want to write this down, I almost never post anything I can't back up.
didn't get what you said. John 20:28 does indeed use the definite article, "the Lord of me and the God of me":

upload_2019-11-26_11-25-37.png

I would interpret that as distinguishing between the Son and the Father, Thomas saw the risen Jesus Christ before him and said "o my Lord" and then believing in the power & promises of the Father said again "and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]!"

You are arguing that John 20:28 proves Jesus Christ was The Father incarnate ? Is that the historic interpretation?
 
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Erik Nelson

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I haven't read it, so can't say whether I am or not.
But if I am; so what? I'm not contradicting Scripture.
you're a better judge of doctrine than an Apostolic Father & Saint? Author of "Against Heresies" no less??



ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in 3 and 3 in one is the Trinity.
Line one, clause one of the Nicene creed says:
(A) "We believe in One God, the Father..."
(B) "We believe in One God, Father Son & Holy Spirit..."​


There is ONE God - Jesus taught that and all Jews believe it..
You cannot place one part of the Godhead above another; they are ONE.
Are you me? Are you Jesus Christ?

John 17:21-22

There is no "root" of the Godhead.
God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit - eternal, not created; always was, is and always will be.
You deny that the Father begets the Word and generates the Spirit?

You deny "only begotten Son" ?

who is the root ancestor of a family, the Father or His Son whom He begat ?
 

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Erik Nelson

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No one has seen The Father...show us The Father...have I been so long with you, and do you not know me...he that has seen me has seen The Father...how sayest thou, "Show us The Father"
So Jesus was The Father incarnate ?
 
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Erik Nelson

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In this case it is not different words but a different spelling of the same word because of case, voice etc..

JOhn 20:28 also has the definite article hos with theos in Thomas' declaration that Jesus is the god of himself.

I Agree with most of your declarations but have no clue what you are trying to say with the colloquialism "two hands"
yes, I misunderstood

John 20:28 does use the definite article for both (1) "the Lord of me" and (2) "the God of me"

I would interpret that as distinguishing between the Son and the Father, not conflating / combining / con-fusing / merging / smushing together the two

John 20:28b is the strongest argument so far in equating Jesus Christ with The Father incarnate... but no one has ever held that interpretation, correct?

Jesus Christ was God's own Word incarnate, not The God The Father Himself incarnate, yes?

Saint Irenaeus described the Word & Spirit as "His two hands" (The God The Father is "never without His two hands") the two hands of God the Father with which He reaches into and interacts with creation... like a carpenter using his hands to work with wood, so God chooses to use His verbal commanding Word to create and His breathy Spirit to animate

The Father "generates" the rest of the Godhead, He "begets" the Word and "breathes" the Spirit

Both are transcendent, fully God in essence & nature, eternal, existing beyond & independent of all of our created space and time universe

God's spoken Word & God's breathed Spirit are not The Person of The God The Father, however, who generates them and is Himself the one singular unitary root ultimate basal foundational "cause" (if you would) of all else, uncreated / eternal / transcendent (Word, Spirit) and created (space, time, matter, energy, including Angels & humankind)
 
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Erik Nelson

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God the Son or Jehovah the Son!

The Father is not the Son who is not the Spirit etc. but they are all equally God or divine! all co-equal in essence and co eternal.
and all in eternal unity and comm-union, as well!

they, hence the entire triune Godhead, is all of fully Godly Godlike Divine essence & nature

Only The Father in His Person is "The One True God" in the absolute fullest sense of the word

The Father generates His Word ("begets") and His Spirit ("breathes")

The Father is the root source original origin primal foundational basal first cause of all, both uncreated (Word, Spirit) and created (space, time, matter, energy)

Doctrine = Orthodox Monarchy of the Father

Please look it up, I've already supplied a link or two above, find one which resonates with you, "Monarchy of the Father"

The Father = The Monarch [One Authority] = Monotheism [One God]

His Word & Spirit do have a super-august, super-awe-some status... even they are generated by The Father ("beget", "breathe") in transcendent eternity beyond creation space-time

The one ultimate root cause of all is The Father in His One Person, not the triune Godhead:

triune Godhead = The One True God The Father + His two Hands

The ultimate one singular unitary source of all is The Person of The Father ("God" in the following image), not the essence of the Godhead ("God" + "Son" + "Spirit", all together, in the following image)

upload_2019-11-26_11-50-17.png
 
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Strong in Him

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That is N.O.T. the Nicene Creed

"We believe in One God, the Father..."

You're quoting only part of the first line of the creed and treating it as if it were the whole.
The creed also says, "AND in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father."

The Nicene creed was drawn up to counter the heresies that were being taught at the time. These heresies were about the person of Jesus. Some false teachers were saying that Jesus was God but hadn't been human at all; the human body is matter, which is not spirit and is wicked and opposed to God. Therefore God could not have been made flesh and inhabited a human body. These people were known as Gnostics, and what they taught is very similar to what Christian Scientists teach today. John and Paul had this group of people in mind when they wrote their letters and warned people of false teachers. John says "every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God", 1 John 4:2-3.
Other false teachers were saying that Jesus was God the Son, created by God at a certain point in time and subordinate to him. These people were following the teachings of Arius, who was later denounced as a heretic. This is what the JW cult teaches today - that Jesus was a god, inferior to the Father and became God at his baptism.

Both these teachings are false, and the Nicene creed was written to spell out what the church believes about Jesus.
At CF, anyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus Christ was fully divine and fully human cannot call themselves a Christian. This is stated in the forum rules, in the statement of faith.

The triune "Godhead" is N.O.T. The One True "God" The Father

"We believe in One God, the Father..."

You are taking liberties with the Nicene creed of "Victory"

You're quoting only a fraction of it in order to prove your point.
"We believe in God the Father ......................... AND in Jesus Christ ............"

of course, The Father made all things through His Words, Genesis 1:1




"We believe in One God, the Father..."




They are all God in essence & nature, i.e. they are all "Godly / Godlike / Divine"

Divine means God.
If you acknowledge that the Son and the Spirit are divine you are saying that they are God.
Great! ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; as I said and as the church believes.

The Nicene Creed line one, phrase one, reads


"We believe in One God, the Father..."

PART of line one of the Nicene Creed says that - a lot of the creed explains who Jesus is and what we believe about him. Again, this was drawn up to state the faith of the church and counter false teachings.
You are choosing not to quote the part of the creed that relates to Jesus; God, true God, and light. You are saying that the first few words of the first line of the creed are, in fact, the whole creed - they are not. Father is only part of who God is; he is also Son and Spirit.

It's like if I said, "I believe in the Queen; sovereign of the UK, head of the church of England, and the commonwealth, wife, mother, grandmother, great grandmother ....", and someone else said "I believe in the Queen, sovereign of the UK". Being sovereign of the UK does not prevent her from being those other things too. ALL those things are true about her. If someone chooses to say only one thing about her, that does not prevent all the other things being true of her too.

So God IS Father - he is also Jesus Christ, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
ONE God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

so he has three different "modes" of interacting with the world?

That is "modalism"

No.
God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit - ONE God. 3 "persons" in one; 1 in 3.
God the Father created the world, through the Son in the power of the Spirit.
God the Son, sent by God the Father and filled with the Spirit, redeemed the world.
God the Spirit, sent by the Father, draws us to God the Son. In Acts, he is also described as the Spirit of Jesus. He knows the mind of God, intercedes for us and makes us children of God and co-heirs with the Son, Romans 8:16-17.

God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, gives himself completely to us; he is fully involved, as Father, Son and Spirit, in our creation and redemption.

"We believe in One God, the Father..."


You are confusing & conflating & combining & merging & smushing together the Person of God The Father and His Godly Godlike Divine Essence & Nature which is shared amongst all three Persons of the triune Godhead

ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - that is the Trinity.
The Trinity is not easy to understand, or explain, but it is a main belief of the Christian church. You may not believe it, but it doesn't change the fact.
It is also a fact that people who do not believe the Trinity can only discuss it in certain parts of these forums - argue that with the Mods if you like; it won't change the facts.

The Godhead is not God.

???
What is it then? Seeing as there is only ONE God.

You think The Father somehow derives from the triune Godhead?

God IS the Triune Godhead - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I'm not diminishing God's Word, rather you are diminishing The God The Father

No, I'm not.
 
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Strong in Him

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Line one, clause one of the Nicene creed says:
(A) "We believe in One God, the Father..."
(B) "We believe in One God, Father Son & Holy Spirit..."​

The entire creed, which states and sums up our faith, says;
A) We believe in God who is ONLY Father
B) We believe in God the Father AND in Jesus, AND in the Holy Spirit. ?

READ the creed, don't take part of one line out of context.
 
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Erik Nelson

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The entire creed, which states and sums up our faith, says;
A) We believe in God who is ONLY Father
B) We believe in God the Father AND in Jesus, AND in the Holy Spirit. ?

READ the creed, don't take part of one line out of context.
you just quoted the parts of the 1700 year old creed...

which affirm that the Word and Spirit come "from" the Father

they are not self-existent, they owe their existence to the activities of The Father

as direct "generations" of the Father, they share His fully divine ESSENCE & NATURE, eternal and transcendent beyond creation space and time

they do not share His PERSON
 
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Erik Nelson

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You're quoting only part of the first line of the creed and treating it as if it were the whole.
The creed also says, "AND in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father."
God by essence & nature, but not the Father in Person


You're quoting only a fraction of it in order to prove your point.
"We believe in God the Father ......................... AND in Jesus Christ ............"
3 separate Persons

you are telescoping the creed into

"We believe in God the Father AND Jesus Christ AND Spirit..

not what it ever said


Divine means God.
by essence not Person

in modern English, it means
  • divine not The Divinity
  • godly not The God
your two hands are human like you but aren't you



It's like if I said, "I believe in the Queen; sovereign of the UK, head of the church of England, and the commonwealth, wife, mother, grandmother, great grandmother ....", and someone else said "I believe in the Queen, sovereign of the UK". Being sovereign of the UK does not prevent her from being those other things too. ALL those things are true about her. If someone chooses to say only one thing about her, that does not prevent all the other things being true of her too.
Modalism


So God IS Father - he is also Jesus Christ, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
ONE God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
not what the Creed of Victory actually says

as the words are being translated, only the Father is GOD God...

the Word and Spirit are Godlike





ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - that is the Trinity.
The Trinity is the Godhead
The Father is the God







Seeing as there is only ONE God.
yes, The Father



God IS the Triune Godhead - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
modalism



please acknowledge the Monarchy of the Father?
 
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Strong in Him

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you just quoted the parts of the 1700 year old creed...

which affirm that the Word and Spirit come "from" the Father

they are not self-existent, they owe their existence to the activities of The Father

as direct "generations" of the Father, they share His fully divine ESSENCE & NATURE, eternal and transcendent beyond creation space and time

they do not share His PERSON

"We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ .... TRUE GOD from true God of one being with the Father."

It is pointless going round in circles like this.

The Trinity is ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - all equal, divine and eternal. 1 in 3 and 3 in 1.
The Trinity is a central Christian belief, and one you are supposed to assent to if you want to post in this forum. You can argue and deny that all you like; it is a fact.
Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God while he was on earth. He is, always has been and always will be God. He said "I and the Father are one", John 10:30 and asked that God would glorify him with the glory that they shared before the world began, John 17:5.
Anyone who does not accept that Jesus was fully human and fully divine while on earth, is not allowed to identify as a Christian on CF. You may argue that all you like; it is a fact.

Accept the Trinity or not; I'm done arguing about it.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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So Jesus was The Father incarnate ?

Read the Creed. I and My Father are One. I am in the Father and my Father is in me. If you see Yeshua you see the Father.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
 
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tampasteve

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MOD HAT ON

Please note that this thread is now closed. Discussions on the Trinity are often tricky as they tend to lead to one heresy or another, typically inadvertently. Please note for future discussions that Modalism, Monarchianism, Adoptionism, Arianism, Semi-Arianism, etc. are all heresy and not allowed on CF in the Christian forums.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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