Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

thomas_t said:

Christ was always there indeed. But he was not crucified until some 2000 years ago. That was the beginning of the church. Baptism lets people enter it, but baptism hasn't been installed until Jesus was crucified. There was no church before that day.

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His crucifixion is when He overturned death by His death and resurrection, and fulfilled the prophecy of the Lamb that takes away the sin of this world. But He's been gathering His church since Adam. I share this often (so others have already seen this, but maybe it's new to you) - it's the Greek Orthodox icon depicting the Victory of Christ. That's Adam and Eve being lifted from the grave. In the abyss, you can see "death" personified as being bound.

Hi Gal,
thank you for your answers.
One of the reasons I can't believe you believe that the Israelites were the curch... is this:

mkgal1 said:

An example of an outward shared individual qualification within the group of Israelite men was their circumcision. If they weren't circumcised - they were considered to have broken the covenant and were excluded and no longer part of the group (Genesis 17:14).

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You even cite it!
Circumcision - as opposed to baptism: Judaism.
Baptism - as opposed to circumcision: church (Christian church of course).
It's so simple.

Ok, we weren't discussing interactions in groups. Let's do it now. Groups interact. Your example (1 Kings 18) wasn't about interaction. It was just a number of guys who either believed (in their hearts) ... the right or the wrong thing.
These groups don't have a heart, they have spirit, i.e. unity in spirit. This is how I understand Ephesians 4:3. My point was... since groups don't have a heart, they can't be saved according to what happens in their heart - cause they don't have one. You can't say - "the heart of a group is is sad", or anything in this sense. You can say: "my heart is sad"... but it doesn't make sense to refer to the heart of a group. You can say: "all their hearts (plural) were sad" but it doesn't make sense to refer to a group heart.

So I conclude, Romans 10:9 doesn't refer to a group, that was my point. It's nice when all individuals from within a group get saved, but this in and of itselfs leaves the interaction between themselves out of the focus, it refers to each of them individually.
I don't want to argue about this though. I leave you the last word concerning groups and the distinction between groups and individuals. Here you go.
I agree with you that individuals can share specific qualifications, btw..

mkgal1 said:

The passage states that Christ made the two groups one (so they more than overlap).

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after they were joined by Jesus, then yeah. Here we agree.
I appreciate you being willing to go into detail in this.

Regards,
Thomas

thomas_t said:

I count three times. Babylon, Rome and Hitler. I'm not talking about punishment though. I'm saying they have been struck three times.

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The Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazi's was a continuation of the pogroms and persecution of the Jews since the Middle ages. Albeit the worst and most deadly attack yet.
But it doesn't fit any Bible prophecy for these end times, when the Lord Himself will act to destroy His enemies, ALL those who reject and hate Him. Luke 20:16

Jeremiah 6:8-9 Be instructed, Jerusalem [Judah], or your God will depart from you and will devastate the Land. Psalm 89:30-32
The Lord says: Glean like a vine the remnant of Israel, one last time, like the vine dresser – pass your hand over the branches. Isaiah 5:5-7


Jeremiah 6:10-15 To whom shall I speak and give warning? Who will hear me? Their ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach, it has no appeal for them. Ezekiel 14:2, Ezekiel 22:26-28

But I am full of the anger of the Lord, I cannot hold it back. Isaiah 63:1-6 I must pour it out onto all the people of the Land. Their houses will be given to others.
For all the leaders and people only consider themselves, their prophets and Rabbis are all frauds, every one of them. They fail to address the real problems of their people. They say: “All is well”. All well? Nothing is right and just. They ought to be ashamed because of their sinful practices, yet they have no sense of shame, therefore they will fall with a great crash and be brought low on the Day of My reckoning. Ezekiel 33:25-26


Jeremiah 6:16-20-30 The Lord says: you should enquire about the Way that leads to righteousness. But they said: “We refuse”. Then I appointed watchmen – listen for the call they told them. But they said: “We refuse”. Therefore hear you nations and take note of the plight of these people. I am about to bring ruin upon them, for all their sinful ways and ignoring My instructions. Your sacrifices are not acceptable and your offerings do not please Me. Zephaniah1:4-6, Matthew 24:41-42

Therefore the Lord says: I will set obstacles before this people, which will bring them to the ground, father, sons, friends and neighbors will all perish together. Jeremiah 12:14-17 A great host appears, like men arrayed for battle, against you: Zion.
Joel 2:1-11, Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21

News of their coming has reached us and our hands hang limp, agony grips us, pangs as of a woman in labour. Do not go outside, for the foe will smite you there, as terror is spread around the world. Mourn and wail as the despoiler comes upon us in an instant.
These verses are the clearest description of how the Lord will act on His great Day of vengeance. Isaiah 63:1-6 A coronal mass ejection flash will be seen; Isaiah 30:26a, then ‘news of its coming will reach us’, by the STEREO satellite system. ‘Do not go outside’, is obvious – get into underground shelters and stay there until it passes, at least 24hrs. Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 26:20-21

It is appointed to assay My people, testing their conduct, but they are all rebels, mischief makers and corrupt to a man. The bellows blow, the fire is ready. All types of metal in vain the refiner refines, but the impurities cannot be removed. Call them reject silver, for the Lord has rejected them. Ref: REB.

All of this prophecy in Jeremiah is telling us about the coming fire judgement – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This will affect all the world, but especially the Middle East and this prophesy applies specifically to Judah, the current inhabitants of the Land. Ezekiel 20:46-48, Ezekiel 21:1-17, Isaiah 6:11-14, Romans 9:27

thomas_t said:

Hi Gal,
thank you for your answers.
One of the reasons I can't believe you believe that the Israelites were the curch... is this:
You even cite it!
Circumcision - as opposed to baptism: Judaism.
Baptism - as opposed to circumcision: church (Christian church of course).
It's so simple.

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"His People" is maybe a less confusing term for His faithful followers.

There were the faithful under the Old Covenant - and then there was the NEW covenant. Faithfulness to God never changed, though, it was how it was manifested that changed with the covenants. A lot is lost when a person divides the Bible into two separate stories (of two separate groups of people) instead of one continuous story of God redeeming humanity.

I just came across the video from Lysa Terkeurst. This is a succinct summary of the "plot" of the story of God (as I see it) and His plan for restoration of His people to Him:

The Original Temple - The Garden of Eden
https:/www.lifeway.com/en/product-family/trustworthy-bible-study?playlistVideold=6098851775001

thomas_t said:

Ok, we weren't discussing interactions in groups. Let's do it now. Groups interact.

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thomas_t said:

Your example (1 Kings 18) wasn't about interaction. It was just a number of guys who either believed (in their hearts) ... the right or the wrong thing.
These groups don't have a heart, they have spirit, i.e. unity in spirit. This is how I understand Ephesians 4:3. My point was... since groups don't have a heart, they can't be saved according to what happens in their heart - cause they don't have one. You can't say - "the heart of a group is is sad", or anything in this sense. You can say: "my heart is sad"... but it doesn't make sense to refer to the heart of a group. You can say: "all their hearts (plural) were sad" but it doesn't make sense to refer to a group heart.

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thomas_t said:

So I conclude, Romans 10:9 doesn't refer to a group, that was my point. It's nice when all individuals from within a group get saved, but this in and of itselfs leaves the interaction between themselves out of the focus, it refers to each of them individually.

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ThomasT said:

I don't want to argue about this though. I leave you the last word concerning groups and the distinction between groups and individuals. Here you go.
I agree with you that individuals can share specific qualifications, btw..

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mkgal1 said:

They would comprise a group (based on their individual belief). Personally - I think it's more important to go all the way back to Genesis, though - to see how, even from the beginning, people were able to either "believe God" or distrust Him and believe in their own solutions (and how He always had a plan to restore humanity back to Himself).

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Hi Gal.
yes sure. People believed in God even before the New Covenant. It's a continuous story, I agree.
However, you can't believe that God raised Jesus from the dead before he even died. But in order for someone to belong to the church... you must believe this very thing. so I don't understand why some of your fellow posters want to see a church from before 30 AD. There was no church before Jesus died on the cross. Faithful people.. they were.
So now you've changed your wording to faithful people... they always were there, now we agree. .

mkgal1 said:

I believe that's possible now (and has been since the fulfillment of the parable of the wicked tenants (recorded in Luke 20:9-19; Matthew 21:33-45; Mark 12:1–12) because "Israel" [...] is formed by those with the belief in [...] Christ Jesus.

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As I said, all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel as shown by Romans 11:28. They don't accept Jesus, as an enemy of the Gospel. Your theology is not in line with this verse.
This, by the way, is the core of our disagreement.

Thomas
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Hi Keras,

keras said:

But [the Holocaust] doesn't fit any Bible prophecy for these end times, when the Lord Himself will act to destroy His enemies, ALL those who reject and hate Him. Luke 20:16
[...]
the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This will affect all the world [...]

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as you say, this won't be limited to Jewish kings but all the kings of the world (Revelation 6:15). This will take place after the stars will have fallen down from where they are now (verse 13).

Thomas

thomas_t said:

As I said, all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel as shown by Romans 11:28. They don't accept Jesus, as an enemy of the Gospel. Your theology is not in line with this verse.
This, by the way, is the core of our disagreement.

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That goes completely against the words of Paul (similar to what you've said in this thread - ironically, the passage you used to prove your point actually DISproves it). Your statement completely dismisses the fact that Paul - the disciples - John, Elizabeth, Mary, the 3,000 that believed at Pentecost were ALL Israelites in every sense of the word:

Quoting from linked article about genealogy of Christ Jesus:

Matthew presents us with Jesus' genealogy.

But the uniform repetitions of male progenitors is interrupted four times in order to mention women: Rahab and Ruth, both of them foreigners, are there to show that the rest of the human race is invited to share in salvation along with Israel; Tamar, daughter-in-law of Judah, and Bathsheba, who had been the wife of Uriah before becoming David’s wife, are there to remind us that the promise makes its way despite the weaknesses of a patriarch[39] and of a king[40] and, paradoxically, even derives support from them. ~ Jewish Identity of Mary : University of Dayton, Ohio

thomas_t said:

As I said, all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel as shown by Romans 11:28. They don't accept Jesus, as an enemy of the Gospel. Your theology is not in line with this verse.
This, by the way, is the core of our disagreement.

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mkgal1 said:

That goes completely against the words of Paul (similar to what you've said in this thread - ironically, the passage you used to prove your point actually DISproves it). Your statement completely dismisses the fact that Paul - the disciples - John, Elizabeth, Mary, the 3,000 that believed at Pentecost were ALL Israelites in every sense of the word:

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No it doesn't, these 3000 were all Israelites.... but not all Israel. Big difference.
All of these 3000 were in favor of the Gospel. They were not their enemies.
Israel is not cast away - as you say. However, they are still enemies of the Gospel. Both is true. At the same time.

Thomas

thomas_t said:

As I said, all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel as shown by Romans 11:28. They don't accept Jesus, as an enemy of the Gospel. Your theology is not in line with this verse.
This, by the way, is the core of our disagreement.

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Why are you saying this means all Israel?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Is not the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded, meaning all Israel? How can----the election hath obtained it---fit what you said above---all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel as shown by Romans 11:28.?

and the rest were blinded---does not equal all Israel, but it does equal what you said above per this part though---is an enemy of the Gospel as shown by Romans 11:28.

thomas_t said:

Please note I was saying all Israel is saved - as opposed to all Jews.
Thomas

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So, all we need to do is to identify who are the true Israelites.
Looking at the first time that name was given; to Jacob, Genesis 35:9-12, it means he was an overcomer for God. One who prevails with God.

Isn't it very obvious who those overcomers are today?
It is quite incredible to apply that to the people group who have named themselves Israel. Even among the Churches, we see that only a few are the victorious overcomers for God. Revelation 2 & 3

A true Israelite is a person who believes in God, keeps His Commandments and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Every faithful Christian, from every race nation and language. Rev 5:9

However Paul does go on in Romans 11:28-31, to reiterate how God still loves Israel for the sake of the Patriarchs. But who are all the descendants of Jacob? Only God knows; Amos 9:9
We know [probably] who the House of Judah are, but the House of Israel - the ten Northern tribes, remain scattered among the nations, unaware of their heritage. But it was them whom Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 He WAS successful and we Christians are the result; Israelites by descent and by faith!

Hi David,

DavidPT said:

Why are you saying this means all Israel?

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thank you for asking me about my opinion. You're asking a very good question, I think.
The election in Romans 11:7 and the elected all Israel (Romans 11:28) are not the same. Paul didn't mean them to be the same, since for the election in verse 7, he chose past tense "obtained it". For the elected all Israel, in contrast, he chose future tense "will be saved".
Scripture explains why: “ [...] he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:26b-27... still to be fulfilled when Paul wrote these lines in future tense.
Thank you for your participation.
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Hi Keras,

keras said:

Isn't it very obvious who those overcomers are today?

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yeah, they overcome the missiles fired from Gaza on a daily basis.

keras said:

A true Israelite is

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... a true Israelite.

keras said:

Every faithful Christian, from every race nation and language. Rev 5:9

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... in contrast... is every faithful Christian. Very simple.

keras said:

We know [probably] who the House of Judah are, but the House of Israel - the ten Northern tribes, remain scattered among the nations, unaware of their heritage. But it was them whom Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 He WAS successful and we Christians are the result; Israelites by descent and by faith!

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Here we disagree. "For the sake of the forefathers" (Romans 11:28) it says. So it's the ten tribes + the Jewish ones. Jacob had 12 sons, not ten, and it's from Jacob that he will banish ungodliness (see verse 27). Paul just named the 12 "Israel" as it used to be. Jacob's second name was "Israel".
I'm a Christian but I'm not Jewish, for instance. As nice as Jewish descent may be... I don't need a bloodline to the forefathers to be reconciled with Jesus since I accept his gift on the cross.
Thank you Jesus!
Thomas

thomas_t said:

Scripture explains why: “ [...] he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:26b-27... still to be fulfilled when Paul wrote these lines in future tense.

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Those aren't originally Paul's words.

In Romans 11:26-27, Paul is quoting Isaiah's words (recorded in Is 59:20). These words were prophecy when Isaiah spoke them - but if you're seeing these words as still yet to be fulfilled, I believe you're completely missing what God had already accomplished by Paul's time:


.....the question a person should ask is, "in WHAT way?". That's answered in the previous verse:


"ignorant of this mystery" - the definition of a mystery is given in chapter 16 verse 25-26:


A mystery is something that's been hidden in the past and is now revealed in the Scripture.


In Ephesians 3 Paul unfolds in detail this mystery:

What is the mystery?


The mystery is that Jew and Gentile were brought together now in one body.

thomas_t said:

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Hi Keras,
Here we disagree. "For the sake of the forefathers" (Romans 11:28) it says. So it's the ten tribes + the Jewish ones. Jacob had 12 sons, not ten, and it's from Jacob that he will banish ungodliness (see verse 27). Paul just named the 12 "Israel" as it used to be. Jacob's second name was "Israel".
I'm a Christian but I'm not Jewish, for instance. As nice as Jewish descent may be... I don't need a bloodline to the forefathers to be reconciled with Jesus since I accept his gift on the cross.
Thank you Jesus!
Thomas

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Galatians 3:26-29 says we Christians are the children of the Patriarchs by faith and Ephesians 2:11-18 makes it clear that ethnicity is not the criteria for salvation.

You seem to want to put aside the fact of the ten tribes of the House of Israel are the Christian peoples. The few Christian Jews, plus the many people from other races, nations and languages; are included with them.

This is foolishness. Jews are killed daily by terrorist actions.

But what you don't see is the many prophesies that plainly say how Judah will be punished by the Lord, for their apostasy and rejection of Jesus. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Amos 2:4-5, Romans 9:27

mkgal1 said:

Those aren't originally Paul's words.

In Romans 11:26-27, Paul is quoting Isaiah's words (recorded in Is 59:20). These words were prophecy when Isaiah spoke them - but if you're seeing these words as still yet to be fulfilled, I believe you're completely missing what God had already accomplished by Paul's time:

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Hi Gal,
actually, Paul referred to this prophecy as one that was yet to be fulfilled. Note the future tense in verse 26 "will be saved".

Hi Keras,

keras said:

Galatians 3:26-29 says we Christians are the children of the Patriarchs by faith

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no, it says children of Abraham (singular) by faith. No forefathers (plural) mentioned.

keras said:

You seem to want to put aside the fact of the ten tribes of the House of Israel are the Christian peoples.

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"fact" - Keras, it's your presumption. There is no Bible verse indicating this, it's guesswork.

keras said:

But what you don't see is the many prophesies that plainly say how Judah will be punished by the Lord, for their apostasy and rejection of Jesus. [...], Amos 2:4-5, [...]

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Why shouldn't Amos be fulfilled yet?
Note that the great day of wrath you cite is against all peoples from every race.
Thomas

thomas_t said:

no, it says children of Abraham (singular) by faith. No forefathers (plural) mentioned.

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All the Patriarchs demonstrated the faith that God requires of us. Galatians 3:26-29 is perfectly clear; we Christians ARE the children of God by our faith in Him.

thomas_t said:

"fact" - Keras, it's your presumption. There is no Bible verse indicating this, it's guesswork.

Why shouldn't Amos be fulfilled yet?
Note that the great day of wrath you cite is against all peoples from every race.
Thomas

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Jesus came to save the lost tribes of Israel. Matthew 15:24 Did He fail?

Obviously Amos 9:9 is not fulfilled yet. Only the 2 tribes of Judah are in the holy Land and they face Judgment for their continued apostasy and rejection of Jesus.

thomas_t said:

Hi Gal,
actually, Paul referred to this prophecy as one that was yet to be fulfilled. Note the future tense in verse 26 "will be saved".

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Perpetual and actively ongoing tense.

Are you suggesting that you are still waiting for your own salvation, because Romans 10:13 is written in the same way:

Hi Gal,
my own salvation is not part of the topic (I'm not Jewish), maybe in another thread we'll discuss this?

mkgal1 said:

Romans 10:13 is written in the same way:

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this passage is a quote, whereas Paul's Romans 11:26 "will be saved" is not. "Will be saved" is future tense.
Thank you for the exchange, I leave you the last word.
Hi Keras,
I stay with my opinion, there is no indication in the Bible that the lost tribes are Chrtistian peoples. Jesus was sent to Israel, the Apostles to all the world.

keras said:

All the Patriarchs demonstrated the faith that God requires of us.

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sure. We often agree. It's just the replacement Israel -> church that I am against.
So we could stop, here Keras, or would you wish to go on debating?
Thomas

thomas_t said:

sure. We often agree. It's just the replacement Israel -> church that I am against.
So we could stop, here Keras, or would you wish to go on debating?
Thomas

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NO-ONE here says the Church has replaced Jewish Israel, let alone me.
You lack understanding in this issue. The Church is a continuation of God's faithful people, thru all the ages.
People retain their ethnicity, although immigrants to Israel make unsubstantiated claims to be Jews.
The Jewish State of Israel is in Bible prophecy. Their punishment for continued apostasy and rejection of Jesus is told to us in over 20 prophecies.
Your belief of their redemption is false, God does not forgive those who hate Him.

keras said:

NO-ONE here says (1) the Church has replaced Jewish Israel, let alone me.
[...](2) The Church is a continuation of God's faithful people, thru all the ages.

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And you think statements (1) and (2) do not amount to the same exact thing which is replacement? Let's have a quick look...
Then the Lord said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt [...]
This was Exodus 3:7. So you see: the Lord himself called Israel "my people".
This, however, is opposed to say that his people used to be all those who were faithful to God. There were a number of people outside Israel who believed in God, as well (Balaam, for instance).
When did the almighty call Christians "his people"? Did I miss scripture? He called them "church" Mt 16:18.

keras said:

Their punishment for continued apostasy and rejection of Jesus is told to us in over 20 prophecies.

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Who is NOT punished rejecting Jesus.

keras said:

Your belief of their redemption is false,

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Romans 11:26 proves you wrong. We had this.
Can we stop here?
Thomas

EDIT: Dear reader, I've made a mistake. Christians ARE called God's people: 1 Peter 2:9-10. However, this is no continuation, as co-poster keras claims it to be (verse 10). Israel used to be his people as Exodus 3:7 shows. But not all faithful people were included in Israel (see example mentioned above). So there's no continuation.