THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?


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keras

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He did. All Roman emperors were proclaimed to be highest "Gods" and all other gods were supposed to be below them. They were worshipped.

And Titus became the Roman emperor, therefore the man who destroyed the temple, was proclaimed to be the highest God some years later.

How more close to the prophecy do you need to go?
Prophecy fulfilment is just as it tells us it will happen. 'Close', is not good enough.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 says:... he even enthrones himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God.
Titus did not do that. Anyway, making out all that Revelation and other verses describe about what will happen just before Jesus Returns, have happened; is totally unbelievable.
 
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jgr

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Prophecy fulfilment is just as it tells us it will happen. 'Close', is not good enough.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 says:... he even enthrones himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God.
Titus did not do that. Anyway, making out all that Revelation and other verses describe about what will happen just before Jesus Returns, have happened; is totally unbelievable.

Paul uses the Greek "naos" exclusively to identify the temple throughout his epistles.

The temple in his epistles is exclusively the spiritual temple of the believer; collectively, the Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is consistent with his usage.
 
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keras

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Paul uses the Greek "naos" exclusively to identify the temple throughout his epistles.

The temple in his epistles is exclusively the spiritual temple of the believer; collectively, the Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is consistent with his usage.
An actual man, going into an actual Temple and declaring himself to be God, is a whole lot more consistent with what the Bible prophets and Jesus tell us.
Both Daniel and Jesus make clear statements about this literal occurrence.

Why do you spiritualize this?
The end time events can and will happen as the Prophets have described. If not; what else in our Bibles do we discount or spiritualize?
 
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jgr

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An actual man, going into an actual Temple and declaring himself to be God, is a whole lot more consistent with what the Bible prophets and Jesus tell us.
Both Daniel and Jesus make clear statements about this literal occurrence.

Why do you spiritualize this?
The end time events can and will happen as the Prophets have described. If not; what else in our Bibles do we discount or spiritualize?

Not according to Paul.

He's the one spiritualizing it, as he spiritualizes every other temple reference in his epistles.

There is no conflict between spiritual truth and literal truth.

Both are truth.
 
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keras

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Not according to Paul.

He's the one spiritualizing it, as he spiritualizes every other temple reference in his epistles.

There is no conflict between spiritual truth and literal truth.

Both are truth.
What exactly are you going on about?
Strongs G3485 : naos; from the root naio; to dwell. A shrine, a Temple.
Strongs G2411 : Hieron; A sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself of the Temple. At Jerusalem or elsewhere.

Your whole premise that there will be no future Temple, is just nonsense.
 
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jgr

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What exactly are you going on about?
Strongs G3485 : naos; from the root naio; to dwell. A shrine, a Temple.
Strongs G2411 : Hieron; A sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself of the Temple. At Jerusalem or elsewhere.

Your whole premise that there will be no future Temple, is just nonsense.

Paul's temples:

"naos" spiritual:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

"eidóleion" physical:

1 Corinthians 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

"hieros/hieron" physical:

1 Corinthians 9:13
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Are you capable of understanding the distinctions?

Or is spiritual discernment just foolishness for you? (1 Corinthians 2:14)
 
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Semantics or not, the opposite of not worshiping in a temple, is worshiping in a temple. The red herring would be to teach the opposite Jesus. If Jesus stated a time was coming when God's people would no longer worship in Jerusalem (John 4:21), then the opposite would be to teach that God's people will resume worshiping in Jerusalem in a temple.


A rebuilt restored Temple would not cancel out the words of Jesus. It did not before 70 A.D., and it would not today.


The beginning of the Jewish Roman war (Iyar 66ad) until the destruction of the temple (Av 70ad) is much longer than 42 months, hence I stated I apologize, as April of 66ad was not when the gentiles began to trample Jerusalem. While the Jewish Roman war may have started in spring of 66ad, that is most likely not when the trampling by the nations began.

I believe a solid case can be made for both symbolic or literal in regards to the 42 months. I agree that 66ad to 73 ad is longer than 42 months. But if the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations is 42 months in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem is literal, it can fit WITHIN the time frame of 66ad to 73ad.
If the authority of the beast is literally for 42 months, shouldn't it have been fulfilled in the first century since 5 kings had fallen and "one is"?


Since the Gospel of Luke does not tell us how long the Gentiles were destined to occupy Jerusalem, no one can really say that the abomination of desolation came on the scene when the Temple was destroyed, and the Gentiles occupied and controlled Jerusalem for far longer than 42 months as history attests and furthermore, Revelation chapter 17 not only speaks of five kings fallen and a presently existing one in that day, but also foretells of one yet to come. (Rev. 17:10)


From both accounts we know that that the abomination of desolation would occur around the same time as the armies surrounding Jerusalem. For it is around the same time that they were to flee to the mountains.

We do know that just prior to cestius beginning his siege of Jerusalem in 66ad, the seditious zealots gained control of the temple and profaned it (Wars of the Jews Book 2.17.5).

So whether or not the armies that surrounded Jerusalem during the Jewish Roman war were the abomination, we still have a historical account of Jews fleeing Jerusalem around the time of the zealots profaning the temple and the Roman armies sieging Jerusalem in 66ad.


The abomination of desolation is not tied to an army or a multitude of individuals, but to a man as the Apostle Paul states (2 Thess. 2:3-4) and as even other participants on this forum have already pointed out.


in one aspect fish are separated into good and bad. In another aspect the wheat and tares are separated. In reality, a good fish is not the same as wheat, but they point to the same heavenly truth. The river of life flows from the ezekiel temple, where God's throne is located. the river of life also flows from the throne of God in the new Jerusalem. These visions point to the same heavenly truth: the body of Christ.
The ezekiel temple and the New Jerusalem are both consistent in describing the body of Christ, just as a good fish or wheat are consistent with describing the people of God.


The Temple in Ezekiel is a building with a physical description and specific measurements; the body of Christ, of which we are, has no physical description or measurements representing anything that Ezekiel saw. In John's vision, there was no Temple to be measured in the New Jerusalem and the saints are not called the Temple of God in that day. Christ and the Father are the Temple and measurements and descriptions of the Temple of Ezekiel are never applied to them, plus a notable difference is that a river flows out of a building from which God is ruling on the earth in Ezekiel's vision, whereas in the New Jerusalem, the river flows from the throne of God which is not in a building.


I disagree, for we know that God spoke to the prophets of Israel in dreams, visions, riddles, and parables


Which are given explanation, especially when their fulfillment is declared.


Paul stated we are the temple. Paul never stated there would be a future physical temple on earth that we would worship in. Nor does Paul ever mention a future reigning of Christ from a physical temple building on earth.
We are the temple of God as the NT clearly states. What NT scripture states Christ will rule from a literal temple building on earth in order to support your notion?


Perhaps you do not believe Ezekiel and the New Testament are talking about the same God. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ will return to this earth to reign. Ezekiel foretells of God reigning upon the earth from a Temple in Jerusalem.
 
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ebedmelech

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No one is questioning whether God is more powerful than Satan and the finality of God's decrees, but when one is called a prince, that is acknowledgment that they hold a degree of authority. Being called a thief who kills and destroys is merely a description of character which fits the description of many people who have stolen killed and destroyed; most of whom have never held any recognizable positions of authority and power---our prisons are full of them by the way.
Satan is the prince of this world because it is he that caused the curse of sin to enter it. We are all born into a sin cursed world that will eventually be redeemed from that curse. Jesus calling him the "ruler of this world" has to do with those in darkness. They are who he rules over...as those the prisons are full of.

And as you acknowledged in previous posts, Satan's dominion and power are over they who are unbelieving and a present world system that has increasingly stood in opposition to the Kingdom of God, and despite Satan's defeat at the cross, he continues to do everything he can to prove the Word of God wrong, because if he could ever prevent anything that God has said from coming to pass, then he would be able to escape the one thing that he has dreaded for millennia and that is the Lake of Fire where he is destined to face eternal punishment.

But the day on which Satan suffered defeat, was not at the cross itself. When Christ died upon the cross, Satan thought he had defeated God. Remember it was Satan who, when he entered into Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus, sought to have the Messiah put to death in the first place.

But it was the resurrection of Christ by which Satan was defeated. It was by the resurrection of Christ that validated and justified the sacrifice He made for our sins and by which His power over death was demonstrated, and it is our trust in Him for the forgiveness of sins that we escape damnation, receive salvation, and are reconciled to our God.
I think Colossians 2:11-15 says the opposite. Furthermore, the resurrection proved Christ has the power over sin and death. His death on the cross as the sacrifice for sin is how we overcome in Him.

But when a lost soul comes to Christ, it is always a blow to Satan's power and dominion and the more souls come to Christ, the less power and dominion Satan has which is why he does everything he can to keep as many captive and under his control as he possibly can and will continue to do so until he meets his final end when he is sentenced to eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.

Satan's power and dominion are limited and he is not allowed to do anymore than what God permits him. Any decree Satan makes is always subject to cancelization, but God's power is without limit, His authority everlasting, His Word final and will never be canceled out and it is His dominion which has no boundaries nor will have any end.

And it is Christ who will have the final victory when Satan is forever cast into the Lake of fire to suffer torment for all eternity.
Again then, I say to you Satan simply doesn't realize he is a defeated foe. He was defeated at the cross and kicked out of heaven as Jesus defeated him at the cross. Scripture is clear on this.

This conversation is derailing the thread topic. If you wish to work through it, I'm happy to if you wish to start a thread on it.
 
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keras

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Are you capable of understanding the distinctions?
There is no difficulty in understanding what Paul means in his teachings.
There is a spiritual Temple, to which we Christians belong.
There was a physical Temple in Pauls time, destroyed in 70AD.
There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, as many prophesies confirm.

My question to you is: Why do you object to a new Temple so strongly?
 
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jgr

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There is no difficulty in understanding what Paul means in his teachings.

Then you should have no trouble understanding his distinctions.

There is a spiritual Temple, to which we Christians belong.

We do not belong to the temple. We are the temple.

There was a physical Temple in Pauls time, destroyed in 70AD.

True.

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, as many prophesies confirm.

None confirmed by Paul.

My question to you is: Why do you object to a new Temple so strongly?

Why do you object to the spiritual temple so strongly?
 
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keras

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Why do you object to the spiritual temple so strongly?
I don't. I am part of the spiritual Temple of God.

God wanted a Temple twice in ancient times, He wants one in the future for His faithful people to worship Him in and for Jesus to reign from.
Paul DOES confirm it in 2 Thess 2:4.
 
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Satan is the prince of this world because it is he that caused the curse of sin to enter it. We are all born into a sin cursed world that will eventually be redeemed from that curse. Jesus calling him the "ruler of this world" has to do with those in darkness. They are who he rules over...as those the prisons are full of.


By causing Adam to sin, Satan usurped the title deed from him and made himself the prince of this world. I think we've already established that Satan's rule is over those who are in darkness, yet he continues to make war against those who are of the light.


I think Colossians 2:11-15 says the opposite. Furthermore, the resurrection proved Christ has the power over sin and death. His death on the cross as the sacrifice for sin is how we overcome in Him.


But if Christ had not risen from the dead, Satan would have claimed victory.


Again then, I say to you Satan simply doesn't realize he is a defeated foe. He was defeated at the cross and kicked out of heaven as Jesus defeated him at the cross. Scripture is clear on this.
This conversation is derailing the thread topic. If you wish to work through it, I'm happy to if you wish to start a thread on it.


Satan's final defeat is when he is cast into the Lake of Fire; scripture is clear on that and presently, he still goes before God to accuse the saints day and night. We know this according to the book of Job and Revelation 12:7-12 but when all access to Heaven is cut off from him, that will begin the worst of the worst period of time on earth ever experienced.

You are the one who challenged me on this matter and I only responded in turn. You are free to end anymore discussion on this matter if you desire.
 
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jgr

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I don't. I am part of the spiritual Temple of God.

God wanted a Temple twice in ancient times, He wants one in the future for His faithful people to worship Him in and for Jesus to reign from.
Paul DOES confirm it in 2 Thess 2:4.

He doesn't, otherwise he would have used "hieron" to denote a physical temple, as he did in 1 Corinthians 9:13, instead of "naos", which he used in all instances where he was denoting a spiritual temple.
 
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keras

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How do you know he did not do that? Romans were crazy enough to do such things.
Josephus, in his book; the Wars of the Jews, gives an accurate and vivid account of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem. Titus never entered the Temple before it was burned and destroyed.
Titus doesn't fit the way this future man will gain power. Revelation 17:12-13

The sitting of a man in the new Temple, claiming to be God, is yet to happen, You may see it, why not be aware of and prepared for all that is prophesied to happen then?
He doesn't, otherwise he would have used "hieron" to denote a physical temple, as he did in 1 Corinthians 9:13, instead of "naos", which he used in all instances where he was denoting a spiritual temple.
You must have a very elastic imagination, to think 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a spiritual event.
Such a belief simply isn't logical and conflicts with all the other information we are given about this man; wickedness in human form, the man doomed to destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Who will desecrate a literal Temple, as Jesus says: Matthew 24:15
 
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claninja

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It is your assumption of all the prophesies being fulfilled; that is wrong.
Did Titus 'exalt himself and say he was God', in 70AD? NO he did not.

Where did I mention Titus?

The NT does refer to the new Temple in Revelation 11:1. All of this chapter remains to be fulfilled. Many OT verses tell about this new Temple.

Revelation 11:1 makes no specific mention of a "new" temple. That would be your interpretation based on eschatological bias.

Ezekiel answers this. The House in which Emmanuel (God with us) will live must fulfill a number of qualifications.

The NT teaches us how to interpret the ezekiel temple. We are the temple of God.

It must be in Jerusalem

We have come to the heavenly Jerusalem (hebrews 12:22)

It must be a Palace fit for the greatest King ever to live

· It must be a House that reflects the accomplishments of this great King

· It must be a House that allows the correct service to such an Holy One

· It must be a House that everyone of every nation can come up to; to pray, worship and have audience with Him.

Heaven is His throne and the Earth is His footsool. The creator of universe does not live a house made by human hands. (Acts 7:48-49).
 
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ebedmelech

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By causing Adam to sin, Satan usurped the title deed from him and made himself the prince of this world. I think we've already established that Satan's rule is over those who are in darkness, yet he continues to make war against those who are of the light.





But if Christ had not risen from the dead, Satan would have claimed victory.





Satan's final defeat is when he is cast into the Lake of Fire; scripture is clear on that and presently, he still goes before God to accuse the saints day and night. We know this according to the book of Job and Revelation 12:7-12 but when all access to Heaven is cut off from him, that will begin the worst of the worst period of time on earth ever experienced.

You are the one who challenged me on this matter and I only responded in turn. You are free to end anymore discussion on this matter if you desire.
Then indeed it is ended. Your version is simply wrong. You won't find anything in scripture that says Satan "usurped the title deed"...when you do let me know. I think 1 Corinthians 15 shows you to be incorrect on the matter.
 
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claninja

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A rebuilt restored Temple would not cancel out the words of Jesus. It did not before 70 A.D., and it would not today.

The standing temple didn't cancel out Jesus' words in the 1st century because Jesus didn't say the time had "now come" for worshipers to no longer worship in Jerusalem. So your argument doesn't really make sense. If Jesus said that the time had "now come" in regards to no longer worshiping in the temple, while it stood in the 1st century, then your argument could work.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Jesus specifically stated the "hour is coming" when they would no longer worship the Father in Jerusalem. We know that time came in 70ad, when every stone of the temple was overturned.

To say that a time is coming when worshipers of the Father will resume worship in a temple in Jerusalem is the exact opposite of Jesus' words, and should be a red herring for anyone.


Since the Gospel of Luke does not tell us how long the Gentiles were destined to occupy Jerusalem, no one can really say that the abomination of desolation came on the scene when the Temple was destroyed, and the Gentiles occupied and controlled Jerusalem for far longer than 42 months as history attests and furthermore, Revelation chapter 17 did not speak of five kings fallen and a presently existing one in that day, but also foretells of one yet to come. (Rev. 17:10)

Correct, the gospel of Luke does not tell us how long the nations would trample Jerusalem, only that it would be trampled until the times of the gentiles was complete. However, revelation does and it specifically states 42 months (revelation 11:1).

I don't know if you meant to say "
Revelation chapter 17 did not speak of five kings fallen and a presently existing one in that day, but also foretells of one yet to come". Because revelation 17 clearly states 5 kings have fallen and one is.

Regardless, if 42 months is literal, it would have been fulfilled in the 1st century as 5 kings had fallen and "one is".


The abomination of desolation is not tied to an army or a multitude of individuals, but to a man as the Apostle Paul states (2 Thess. 2:3-4) and as even other participants on this forum have already pointed out.

Your statement of the AOD not being tied to an army contradicts the parallel account in luke, which associates the armies surrounding Jerusalem with the time to flee. You state the man of sin in 2 thessalonians 2 is the AOD, but 2 thessalonians 2 does not specifically say that.

The Temple in Ezekiel is a building with a physical description and specific measurements; the body of Christ, of which we are, has no physical description or measurements representing anything that Ezekiel saw. In John's vision, there was no Temple to be measured in the New Jerusalem and the saints are not called the Temple of God in that day. Christ and the Father are the Temple and measurements and descriptions of the Temple of Ezekiel are never applied to them, plus a notable difference is that a river flows out of a building from which God is ruling on the earth in Ezekiel's vision, whereas in the New Jerusalem, the river flows from the throne of God which is not in a building.

The tabernacle was also given specific measurements and descriptions. But it was not the reality, but only a copy (hebrews 9:23-24). The law, with all of its detailed ceremonies, festivals, and sacrifices was only shadow of Christ (hebrews 10:1, colossians 2:16-17).

If all these specific details are only a shadow, the how can the ezekiel temple not be?


Which are given explanation, especially when their fulfillment is declared.

Not always. A lot of OT scripture is not provided with an explanation in the OT, but is interpreted in its true meaning in the NT. Philip had to explain the meaning of the suffering servant to the ethiopian Eunuch. There was no explanation in the OT passage that it would specifically be about Christ.

Additionally, not all of Jesus' parables have an explanation, such as the parable of the hidden treasure or lost pearl, but we know they are earthly pictures used to point to a heavenly truths.


Perhaps you do not believe Ezekiel and the New Testament are talking about the same God. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ will return to this earth to reign. Ezekiel foretells of God reigning upon the earth from a Temple in Jerusalem.

They absolutely are same. Just as Jesus spoke in parables and many did not understand, so did God speak to the prophets in visions,dreams, parables, and riddles and many do not understand.

Christ is already reigning.

1 corinthians 15:25 For he must reign (present tense verb) until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Christ already entered the true tabernacle, as the earthly tabernacle was only a copy of the heavenly reality.
Hebrews 9:23-24 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
 
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Then indeed it is ended. Your version is simply wrong. You won't find anything in scripture that says Satan "usurped the title deed"...when you do let me know. I think 1 Corinthians 15 shows you to be incorrect on the matter.


Revelation chapter 5: A sealed book of which only Christ is worthy to open. There is something about that book that makes no one else but Jesus worthy to open it. It has been believed that the seals not only represent a series of events to take place in the tribulation, but that the act of breaking open the seals is also the act of laying or enforcing claim to something that pertains to the earth.

Title deeds were once closed with seals but only the rightful recipient of that deed could break the seal. If indeed the book being opened is the title deed to the earth, then Christ at that moment in time is doing something that man disqualified himself from and which Lucifer was given no right to do and prevented from doing, even though by causing Adam to disqualify himself, he usurped what was originally given to man.

In breaking open the seals of the book, Christ is demonstrating His rightful claim and ownership of the earth and thus begins the process of bringing His rule directly to the earth and casting Satan out of it.

A consequence of man's sin: Not being able to exorcise the authority over all the earth in the manner that we otherwise would have been able to do. If Adam had not sinned, is it perhaps possible that man might have been given power even over Lucifer and his demons and even the ability to subdue them?
 
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