HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

RaymondG

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The Law is the bad news,the Gospel the good news.
How can we know what sin is ,and how great a gift salvation is without the equal knowledge of both?
If I showed you one million dollars and told you that it is yours for free, if you are willing to take it. Would You have to be told that you would be burnt alive if you didnt take it......before deciding that it is a good idea to take it? Would one million dollars not seem as good to you....unless you were introduced to something bad before hand?

I think not. I think that idea of an extra Million in the bank is a good enough idea to make us desire it alone.....no threat of fire needed. most would even find it comic if another were to threaten them with fire for declining the million.....as no person in their right mind, would think of declining it....so why the need to add the threats? "Take this million and be free of all your debts and problems....help all those you ever desired to help........oh and if you dont take it, I will burn you alive?"

I think the gift of God is much greater than one Million dollar.....And once, being offered it......nothing else needs to be said before one would do anything they can to obtain it.....
 
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timothyu

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Would You have to be told that you would be burnt alive if you didnt take it......before deciding that it is a good idea to take it? Would one million dollars not seem as good to you....unless you were introduced to something bad before hand?
That would depend on whether they thought they even needed it. Most people don't see the Kingdom as advantageous at this point in life, happily consuming whatever is thrown at them. Guess they all think they have time down the road to repent of their self serving ways when it comes time to be self advantageous. That of course is the ultimate in selfishness in grabbing for the final solution after all else has been exhausted. Too late. They lose having been lord lords all along, not doing as they were commanded yet thinking they can claim it in the end.
 
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His student

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Avoiding death and living in heavenly places is not enough to make you want to accept this gift of life? Only after hearing that you will be burned alive if you choose not to accept Jesus, would you choose to accept Him? And if so, would this be true acceptance? Are we accepting Christ/heaven....or just rejecting a hell?
I’m going to assume that you mean “you” in the general sense because I certainly said no such thing.

Determining what is and is not exercising “true acceptance” is above my pay grade.

I can’t speak for others. But I will tell you that Jesus spoke of Hell three times more than He did about Heaven.. He should probably be our model.

“Instruct a wise man, and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man, and he will increase his learning. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” Proverbs 9:9-10

“… I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Luke 12:5

To quote one preacher “The conclusion of the matter is to fear God and live. For those who don’t believe that they deserve to go to hell but believe they’ll go to heaven may well be destined to hell. But those who know that they deserve hell and don’t deserve heaven may be going to heaven.”
 
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Der Alte

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Really?
What do you like best about hell? (since you are unwilling to let it go
)
That EO has has changed a belief does not make it correct. The only thing there is to "like" about "Eternal Punishment" and the only thing I like "It is scriptural."
 
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Rebecca4Christ

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If I showed you one million dollars and told you that it is yours for free, if you are willing to take it. Would You have to be told that you would be burnt alive if you didnt take it......before deciding that it is a good idea to take it? Would one million dollars not seem as good to you....unless you were introduced to something bad before hand?

I think not. I think that idea of an extra Million in the bank is a good enough idea to make us desire it alone.....no threat of fire needed. most would even find it comic if another were to threaten them with fire for declining the million.....as no person in their right mind, would think of declining it....so why the need to add the threats? "Take this million and be free of all your debts and problems....help all those you ever desired to help........oh and if you dont take it, I will burn you alive?"

I think the gift of God is much greater than one Million dollar.....And once, being offered it......nothing else needs to be said before one would do anything they can to obtain it.....

I think you are very misled.But to use your analogy...If I were offered a million free bucks by a stranger,I'd most definitely want to know why,and where it came from/how it was obtained.And....I would not trust in it for a minute.Would you?
 
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Saint Steven

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That EO has has changed a belief does not make it correct. The only thing there is to "like" about "Eternal Punishment" and the only thing I like "It is scriptural."
The only reason you think it is scriptural is because the Bible is a Damnationist biased text.

Who gave us the canon (collected writings) of the Bible? The Western/Latin state church, which was opposed to the original Eastern/Greek early church.
 
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RaymondG

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That would depend on whether they thought they even needed it. Most people don't see the Kingdom as advantageous at this point in life, happily consuming whatever is thrown at them. Guess they all think they have time down the road to repent of their self serving ways when it comes time to be self advantageous. That of course is the ultimate in selfishness in grabbing for the final solution after all else has been exhausted. Too late. They lose having been lord lords all along, not doing as they were commanded yet thinking they can claim it in the end.
No one, when shown the gift by one who possesses it, would desire anything else over this gift. All will sell all they have to buy the land which possesses this treasure....

Remember the rich man who offered to pay whatever is cost to be able to do the things, those who had the gift did........and was rebuked for the notion that it could be bought with money?

The only issue is that the Kingdom is not being shown by those who possess it.......Therefore, the message must come with consequences for those who do not believe the message as presented by the messenger.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I'm not sure why there's still debating going on in this thread. Yes, people should know that hell exists. No, hell should not be the center of our evangelizing.

I also think it's a little more than generous to say that 'scripture is so simple, even a child could understand it'. As someone who was a child only years ago, I can tell you that had my Mother not walked me through the bible and explained what things meant, I'd have no idea what I was reading LOL. Point me to one child of this day and age that, completely on their own, knows what 'transgression' means or who can understand the subtleties of the trinity or the balance between justification and sanctification; and one that has not been spoon-fed the information by one with a 'carnal intellect', as OP puts it.

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that it's shocking some Christians have begun to erase the existence of hell from our teachings--but I would argue that the seriousness of hell is not going to be what makes someone convert. In the first place, I've personally had many experiences with Atheists in my life. I can assure you, most of them will laugh in your face if you warn them about going to hell--because they don't believe in the bible, to begin with! Why on earth would they be afraid of hell if they already don't believe anything else in the bible?

The Kingdom might not seem 'advantageous', but the realness of hell doesn't exactly change hearts either. Atheism is a culture of convenience. People are constantly doing things that THEY want, that will make THEM feel fulfilled/satisfied. Ultimately, it doesn't work out--that's why for us, one of our strongest testimonies is to display our fullness in Christ. Something to make the unbelievers think "How are they so happy all the time? Why are they satisfied when all they have is some book and their God?" furthermore, there's nothing that makes someone feel so conscience about themselves than crossing paths with someone who is always kind and humble no matter the situation. A person that makes them ask themselves if, perhaps, they should be trying to be someone like that. In the Christian community even, it is often when we are placed next to someone more 'holy' or 'devout' than us, that we start to see our own shortcomings.

My point here, is that what's going to convert people, ultimately, is the things that are of God's nature. The humble wisdom of those who walk for others and not themselves, with the fulfillment and sense of safety that the Father brings us; the things that no man can replicate for himself. One can only appreciate being saved from hell when they believe that hell exists--and that, undoubtedly, is almost always AFTER conversion.
 
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Skidder

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Really?

What do you like best about hell? (since you are unwilling to let it go)
It doesn't matter what "I like". It's not about my emotions, and whether it makes me feel "warm and fuzzy" inside. it's about what the scriptures say. These scriptures are so simple a child could understand, but then again, it takes the faith of a child. Not the faith of carnal intellect, and how they make me "feel".

Isaiah 66:22-24
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Daniel 12:1-2
Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 18:6-9
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:43-48
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 13
They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Revelation 14:9-11
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10, 14-15
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever….
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

How does one avoid such a terrible outcome for their sin? BY ACCEPTING the FREE GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE that is only offered by FAITH in the ONE WHO PAID THE FULL PRICE FOR OUR SINS! The Lamb who was slain is the ONLY answer for the penalty of sin! “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” -1 John 5:12

Jesus said…

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS; for if you do not believe that I am He, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS”

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM.”

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The invitation is open for all….

Acts 16:31
BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED.
 
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Saint Steven

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It doesn't matter what "I like". It's not about my emotions, and whether it makes me feel "warm and fuzzy" inside. it's about what the scriptures say. These scriptures are so simple a child could understand, but then again, it takes the faith of a child. Not the faith of carnal intellect, and how they make me "feel".
We have been fed these lies all of our lives. To the point where most can't imagine not believing them. Wake up, dead man.
 
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Skidder

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I'm not sure why there's still debating going on in this thread. Yes, people should know that hell exists. No, hell should not be the center of our evangelizing.

I also think it's a little more than generous to say that 'scripture is so simple, even a child could understand it'. As someone who was a child only years ago, I can tell you that had my Mother not walked me through the bible and explained what things meant, I'd have no idea what I was reading LOL. Point me to one child of this day and age that, completely on their own, knows what 'transgression' means or who can understand the subtleties of the trinity or the balance between justification and sanctification; and one that has not been spoon-fed the information by one with a 'carnal intellect', as OP puts it.

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that it's shocking some Christians have begun to erase the existence of hell from our teachings--but I would argue that the seriousness of hell is not going to be what makes someone convert. In the first place, I've personally had many experiences with Atheists in my life. I can assure you, most of them will laugh in your face if you warn them about going to hell--because they don't believe in the bible, to begin with! Why on earth would they be afraid of hell if they already don't believe anything else in the bible?

The Kingdom might not seem 'advantageous', but the realness of hell doesn't exactly change hearts either. Atheism is a culture of convenience. People are constantly doing things that THEY want, that will make THEM feel fulfilled/satisfied. Ultimately, it doesn't work out--that's why for us, one of our strongest testimonies is to display our fullness in Christ. Something to make the unbelievers think "How are they so happy all the time? Why are they satisfied when all they have is some book and their God?" furthermore, there's nothing that makes someone feel so conscience about themselves than crossing paths with someone who is always kind and humble no matter the situation. A person that makes them ask themselves if, perhaps, they should be trying to be someone like that. In the Christian community even, it is often when we are placed next to someone more 'holy' or 'devout' than us, that we start to see our own shortcomings.

My point here, is that what's going to convert people, ultimately, is the things that are of God's nature. The humble wisdom of those who walk for others and not themselves, with the fulfillment and sense of safety that the Father brings us; the things that no man can replicate for himself. One can only appreciate being saved from hell when they believe that hell exists--and that, undoubtedly, is almost always AFTER conversion.

"I also think it's a little more than generous to say that 'scripture is so simple, even a child could understand it'."

Not sure if you were missing MISQUOTING me or just making a point. But if so, I said THESE scriptures not all scriptures.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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It doesn't matter what "I like". It's not about my emotions, and whether it makes me feel "warm and fuzzy" inside. it's about what the scriptures say. These scriptures are so simple a child could understand, but then again, it takes the faith of a child. Not the faith of carnal intellect, and how they make me "feel".

Isaiah 66:22-24
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Daniel 12:1-2
Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 18:6-9
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:43-48
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 13
They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Revelation 14:9-11
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10, 14-15
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever….
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

How does one avoid such a terrible outcome for their sin? BY ACCEPTING the FREE GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE that is only offered by FAITH in the ONE WHO PAID THE FULL PRICE FOR OUR SINS! The Lamb who was slain is the ONLY answer for the penalty of sin! “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” -1 John 5:12

Jesus said…

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS; for if you do not believe that I am He, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS”

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM.”

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The invitation is open for all….

Acts 16:31
BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED.

Friend, I agree with most of what you say but a child only understands the bible as well as they've been taught. I want to honestly warn you as well that there is a slight undertone to a few of your posts, especially when you say something like 'carnal intellect' in the way that you do, you are giving off a very strong air of pridefulness. Please, do remember to stay humble.


1 Corinthians 4:7 ESV
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
 
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RaymondG

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I think you are very misled.But to use your analogy...If I were offered a million free bucks by a stranger,I'd most definitely want to know why,and where it came from/how it was obtained.And....I would not trust in it for a minute.Would you?
Exactly......Who would believe a message come from the son of a carpenter......whose sister and brother are standing here in our midst? What would he know? It is all to good to be true.....we would rather stand by our tried and true doctrines. How can we trust anything else?

Jesus said:
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Sounds better than one Mill to me.....But, like you said, not trust worthy. WE would rather death than life....hell and the grave, rather than Heaven.....

And such as it should be.

"4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:"

The kingdom is not accepted by those it was intended for.....

Therefore He will be found by those not looking for him..
" I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."
 
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"I also think it's a little more than generous to say that 'scripture is so simple, even a child could understand it'."

Not sure if you were missing MISQUOTING me or just making a point. But if so, I said THESE scriptures not all scriptures.

It might have been a mix of both--if I misquoted you, I apologize. But as a whole, most children do not understand any scripture(even basic concepts, normally)unless it's been 'pre-chewed', in a sense. I simply wish that you wouldn't use that comparison since it's not very accurate and it will probably derail into another debate entirely.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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The only reason you think it is scriptural is because the Bible is a Damnationist biased text.
Who gave us the canon (collected writings) of the Bible? The Western/Latin state church, which was opposed to the original Eastern/Greek early church.
I am not interested in the unsupported obviously biased opinions of anybody. Can you show me an "Unbiased" Bible translation by any non-damnationist scholar, more than one would be better, who has actually studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level and which has been peer reviewed.
Surely there must be some URs, somewhere, who have the requisite expertise to translate the Bible.




 
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Saint Steven

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The only issue is that the Kingdom is not being shown by those who possess it.......Therefore, the message must come with consequences for those who do not believe the message as presented by the messenger.
Why MUST the message come with consequences for those who do not believe?

Don't you believe that no one can come unless the Spirit draws them?
If God is not in the process of saving someone, why should THAT person have consequences? For what are they being punished if God is not drawing them?
 
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Saint Steven

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I am not interested in the unsupported obviously biased opinions of anybody. Can you show me an "Unbiased" Bible translation by any non-damnationist scholar, more than one would be better, who has actually studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level and which has been peer reviewed.
Surely there must be some URs, somewhere, who have the requisite expertise to translate the Bible.
Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

2 Corinthians 10:12
We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.
 
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Der Alte

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We have been fed these lies all of our lives. To the point where most can't imagine not believing them. Wake up, dead man.
Unfortunately you cannot provide any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence that anything in the Bible e.g. KJV, RSV, ASV, NIV etc. is a lie.
And what of those who have NEVER heard? Without excuse. (I suppose you will say)
Psalms 19:1-4
(1) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
(2) Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
(3) There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
(4) Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Romans 1:18-28
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 
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