Greetings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You said:
I would first like to commend you for offering several fine scriptures to give support to your current understanding.
All praise and glory goes unto GOD for what I know. He has helped me to simply believe His Word plainly in what it says and to uphold His standard of morality or goodness.
Bible Highlighter said:
Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
Saul (
1 Samuel 16:14) (
1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (
2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (
Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (
Luke 6:16) (Acts of the Apostles 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (
2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (
2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (
John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (
1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (
1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (
Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)
You said:
The bible does not declare any of these professing believers, had salvation. If they did not have it, how could they forfeit it?
Not true.
Saul was once saved.
"6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee." (1 Samuel 10:6-7).
"And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day." (1 Samuel 10:9).
Saul lost his salvation:
"But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him."
(1 Samuel 16:14).
"Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it." (1 Samuel 31:4).
Saul committed self murder. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.
As for the Prodigal Son:
The prodigal son was originally alive spiritually, then he died spiritually via his sin of indulging in prostitutes, and then he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father, and he became a live again spiritually (See verses 24, and 32 - Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32). For when the son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, he was said to be "dead" and he is now "alive again." He was said to be "lost" and now he is "found." This is speaking in spiritual terms. He was spiritually dead when he went a prodigal life of sin (involving prostitution), and he became alive again spiritually when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father. This is what the Parable is plainly saying (See: Luke 15:11-32).
The Parable of the Prodigal Son is the last parable out of a series of 3 parables that are back to back. If you were to carefully compare them. You will notice that the theme is "repentance" and a rejoicing when they found that repentance (i.e. when they found salvation again). For "repentance" is seeking forgiveness with the Lord.
As for Judas Iscariot:
As for the unnamed disciples whose faith was overthrown by Hymenaeus and Philetus:
The verse says,
"Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:18).
Okay. In your view of Soteriology, you cannot overthrow the faith. But in the Bible it plainly says that certain believers faith had been overthrown. You cannot overthrow the faith of those who are already faithless. It doesn't make any sense.
As for the young Christian widows:
"I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan." (1 Timothy 5:14-15).
Okay. Stop and think for a moment. You cannot turn aside after Satan if you are already in Satan's grip. You cannot return back to Pittsburgh airport unless you just departed from there.
As for the Christians who were eager for money:
"And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Timothy 6:8-10).
Okay. You cannot fall into temptation if you are unbeliever. Sinning is simply a way of life for the unbeliever. You also cannot err from the faith unless you once had the faith. This is not talking about coming to the faith for the first time. This is talking about those who have erred or strayed away from the faith because they fell into temptation and a snare in chasing after the love of money. In fact, it tells us this:
"But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life," (1 Timothy 6:11-12).
In other words, the context is talking to the man of GOD and telling him to flee these things. If such a thing was not possible to fall into temptation for the man of GOD, then Paul would never warn the brethren to flee these things because it would be just automatic to the man of GOD to do the right thing. But we see here that Paul is telling the man of GOD to flee in chasing after riches and they are to instead chase after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and gentleness. They are told to fight the good fight of faith so that they may lay hold on eternal life. So you have to fight the good fight of faith. Living righteously and godly. This is all a part of laying hold on eternal life. Fight the good fight. For if we do not fight, we can fall into temptation and chase after riches and pierce ourselves through with many sorrows.
As for Ananias and Sapphira:
Well, we are told in Acts 5 that a great fear came upon the church when they heard about their deaths for them each lying to the Holy Ghost. Now, think about this for a moment. Put your detective cap on and investigate the scene like a criminal detective would do. How does fear by believers make sense in your view? If Ananias and Sapphira were never saved, they would be unbelievers, and the church would not have anything to fear if an unbelieving couple died by GOD. Also, if they are unbelievers, Peter does not preach for them to accept Jesus, either. If they are saved and secure in the salvation despite their sin, then the church also would not experience the emotion of fear. They would either rejoice that they are safely in the arms of Jesus, or they would feel sorrow that they miss their friends. Fear only makes sense by the church over their deaths because they know that something similar could happen to them, too. It is the only logical conclusion (See:
Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)
You said:
People turn from the truth in real-time as we are told this;
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This is passage in John is not an absolute truth for all believers who justify sin. This passage is referring to a specific group of gnostic believers who thought they could sin and still be saved. For they thought sin was an illusion or it did not exist. This is why John warned the brethren not to think like them on this point in 1 John 1:8. John was warning the brethren against the gnostic saying that essentially said "we have no sin" (even while they commit such sin) - 1 John 1:8. For John tells the brethren to "sin not" (1 John 2:1). But if they do happen to sin, they are to confess of their sin in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). Forgiveness of sin is dealing with salvation in context here. For 1 John 1:7 says that to "if we walk in the light.... the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." 1 John 2:9-11 says that walking in the light is loving your brother (using other words). 1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother, no eternal life abides in them. Hating one's brother is the opposite of not loving the brethren. So loving the brethren is a part of eternal life. It's a condition. Also see 1 John 3:10. For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).
You said:
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
(
John 10:28, 29;
I don't have a lot of time to address all your verses here, but I will address the first one, i.e. John 10:28-29 (Which is easily refuted); For you did not quote verse 27. Verse 27 describes the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand. It is the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. So this is not talking about lazy and or sinful sheep but sheep who are loyal and who FOLLOW Jesus.
In any event, may God's love shine upon you this fine day (even if we may disagree strongly on the topic of salvation).
May you please be well.
Sincerely,
~ J.
