A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

solid_core said:

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken…this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:24, 25, 30

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There is another aspect at work here that has been overlooked.

Jesus placed his statement into a specific point in time.


He was referring to a major event that will be taking place during the time of the future Tribulation.

And.. Spoke in reference to those Jews alive during that time during the Tribulation. He spoke specifically of those Jews who will be alive at that time. He was being specific, and isolated them from all other generations. He did so by referring to them as "this generation" will not perish. Which generation? The one that will be alive during the Tribulation!

HE USED THE WORD "THIS" to express a specific generation of Jews. "I am not speaking of you guys. But, "this" (specific) generation. Jesus was pointing to a future time, and was pointing to Jews who will be alive in the Tribulation. If anything? He was telling those with him (ironically) that it did not pertain to them.

He was looking at it from the perspective as God thinks. God can see the past as present. He can see the present as past. He can see the future also as past.

Learning to better understand the mind of God/Christ is part of why we are here to learn. God is omniscient and is always being and knowing the past, present, and future simultaneously. He is everywhere present. He could speak of the Tribulation in terms that would place it in the realm of being a present occurrence.

Today within our cultural way of thinking, we might say, "that generation" to point to the future, or past. But, Jesus as God's mind being expressed, was looking into the future as if He were viewing it and experiencing it.

The Hebrew and Greek writing structures had ways of time traveling (just like God's mind does). Scripture could present the reader with a point of view as if they were viewing a past event, or future event, as if it were happening as they read it. Its like we see with scenes in movies transporting you to another time, and then placing you in that time as if it were the present. Its done all the time in movies that cover a series of events and having recall, or looking ahead.

Jesus in telling them that was taking his disciples out of their present moment while he spoke and pointing them to a future event. To the Tribulation period.

Jesus was pointing them to a specific generation of Jews during the Tribulation, and called them "this generation" as to differentiate them from all other generations.

For it says in Scripture that during the Tribulation, if God did not cause it to cease, all mankind would have perished! Jesus words were to become a message in Scripture for that future Tribulation generation to read and be encouraged by it.

One thing many can miss until shown. With the languages of the Bible, Greek can speak of a future event and speak of it as if it were in the present. Causing the reader knowing Greek to become immersed into the event. Such time switching is one of the bugaboos of Genesis 1:2. Interpreters keep interjecting our way of thinking into what was expressed, and keep missing how it was received when read before the people by Moses at that time.

The time travel technique is used today in movies. We see scenes moving to different points in time and then immersing us into that point in time as if you were watching it in real time. It is not a new communication technique. It was used in the Bible.

More should become aware of this factor. The Greek even has a tense that should read as a future present tense... We need to benefit from getting acquainted with this reality to better understand certain parts of the Bible. After all. Its to become our life while here on earth.

grace and peace!

Thanks for telling me i'm dumb, deceived and an idol worshipper, a wolf in sheep clothes, now i could bet my life that when i was filled with the Holy spirit a time ago, that it was him, and this is an experience christians can have and doesn't happen always at believing. You have your interpretation of the bible, i have an event happening to me as described in another interpretation of bible.

Siiiigh....

The post above was a reply to this.

genez said:

I have family that are of the Pentecostal/charismatic persuasion.

I have fellowshipped with a good number of Pentecostal/charismatic type believers. I found them very dumb about what the accept to believe and to reject. They have over time witnessed to how they have hurt their lives terribly. They will by inspiration of "the spirit" make stuff up and declare its from God because the "spirit" showed them... Their fruit has no seeds. Hindus that become wealthy by worshiping idols show a similar pattern... even tongues.

Jesus warned that by their fruit I would know them. And, I do. All excuses and apologetics used comes from a type of programmed robot mind that can not accept the corrections that the Bible gives. Yet, they are smug and secure.. "because they know."

I have no reason to waste too much time with what I had spent a great of time with at one point in my walk with God. Its always the same blind thinking. Reasoning capacity has been lost. That is one of the fruit. Show them the Greek about tongues ending and prophesy ceasing? Nothing. Show then how Peter wrote that prophesy would discontinue? They just move onto the next diversion. They do not want to know. For they it appears that they think they have the secret to knowing better than everyone else. And, in many ways they remain Scripturally dumb because of that..

Unable to be corrected. If we are to grow? We all need correction. More important. The ability for accepting correction = humility. But when you have a direct line to God? It never happens.

Its a trap. Right now I am trying to find a way to get away from this thread. I stayed for the few who are wanting to better understand what the problem is. Jesus warned they would be wolves in sheep's clothing. I see the leadership as psychics in sheep's clothing. Very close in the fruit.

Have a nice now.

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NBB said:

Thanks for the post... and i agree that to remain filled with the Holy spirit you need to walk accordingly but i disagree that everyone who believes is filled with the Holy spirit, you have your interpretation.
But i actually think this kind of interpretation, and saying you are filled at believing is harmful because is depriving a lot of people of receiving being filled with the Holy spirit.

You contradict a bit there? saying you can't get more of the spirit, but be filled with the Spirit and the same time.

Being filled with the Holy spirit is being filled in yourself with the Holy spirit like if you are a vessel and the Holy spirit what fills, and you need to seek to be refilled because life or sins can 'erode' that filling SEE, in the bible there were believers who were 'refilled' and this happened to already believers:

After they had prayed, their meeting place was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

See there? no new converts, they were already believers... and they were refilled again.

I agree we need to walk accordingly to the call that is all fine,
But that teaching you are writing is actually harmful for the gospel. I mean saying when you believe you can get filled at the same time, i mean it can happen but its not always like that, and people should seek this.

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NBB said:

You contradict a bit there? saying you can't get more of the spirit, but be filled with the Spirit and the same time.

Being filled with the Holy spirit is being filled in yourself with the Holy spirit like if you are a vessel and the Holy spirit what fills, and you need to seek to be refilled because life or sins can 'erode' that filling SEE, in the bible there were believers who were 'refilled' and this happened to already believers:

After they had prayed, their meeting place was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

See there? no new converts, they were already believers... and they were refilled again.

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Thank you for your communication of what you believe fill with the Holy Spirit means.

Regarding those in the meeting place who prayed for help from God for boldness and miraculous signs to be done in Jesus name. . .

You are right, in that all those assembled in the meeting place were believers and followers of Jesus; so, they all had the Spirit of God already indwelling them by faith.

You imagine that being filled with the Spirit is compared to how a cup is filled with water. That analogy is not given in Scripture; but rather, is founded on human reasoning.

I submit to you, as Scripture reveals, that Christians who already have the Spirit can so dedicate themselves to God in fulfilling His purpose, that these Christians then give the Spirit who indwells them greater dominion and power in their lives to fulfill their commitment to God. This is the filling of the Spirit for those already saved.

For example,

Ephesians 5:15-19 (ERV)
15 So be very careful how you live. Live wisely, not like fools. 16 I mean that you should use every opportunity you have for doing good, because these are evil times. 17 So don’t be foolish with your lives, but learn what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Don’t be drunk with wine, which will ruin your life, but be filled with the Spirit. 19 Encourage each other with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your hearts to the Lord.

We are admonished by the Apostle Paul to be filled with the Spirit. HOW? By faithfully abstaining from wicked and foolish living, and committing to doing good and praising God always.

Paul is not saying they must pour more Spirit inside of them. The Spirit is a person who indwells all Christians by faith.

Initially repentant believers in Jesus are filled with the Spirit by that faith, meaning the Spirit came to dwell in those who repent and believe in Jesus.

However, as Christians commit themselves to greater service to God by faith, or are recommitting their lives to God after having been sidetracked, such Christians are giving the Spirit that indwells them greater authority over their lives. This is the filling.

If we are already one with Christ by that same Spirit, how can you be filled with more Spirit?

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 (NIV)
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.

As regards the Power of the Spirit displayed by the Spirit within us in Jesus' name, this is something Lord Jesus promised to all those who believe in Him. For the Spirit to work its power through us, we must have a committed faith expressed in obedience to our Lord Jesus, and our motives must be pure.

For instance

Mark 11:23-25 (ERV)
23 The truth is, you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, mountain, fall into the sea.’ And if you have no doubts in your mind and believe that what you say will happen, then God will do it for you.

John 14:12-16 (ERV)
12 “I can assure you that whoever believes in me will do the same things I have done. And they will do even greater things than I have done, because I am going to the Father.

Mark 16:17-20 (ERV)
17 And the people who believe will be able to do these things as proof: They will use my name to force demons out of people. They will speak in languages they never learned. 18 If they pick up snakes or drink any poison, they will not be hurt. They will lay their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Colossians 2:8 It is only human tradition and comes from the powers that influence this world. 9 I say this because all of God lives in Christ fully, even in his life on earth. 10 And because you belong to Christ you are complete, having everything you need. Christ is ruler over every other power and authority.

Just as Christ was complete while on earth, having the Spirit of God; so too, if I belong to Christ, and am complete in Christ, when I repented (committed to die to the old Man and put on the New Man created to be like Christ Jesus) and received Jesus as my Lord by Faith (to live for and follow Him) then I must have His Spirit already by faith making me fully complete in Christ. If Christ dwells in me by His Spirit, then His authority is already mine by faith in Jesus, in the name of Jesus - just as Lord Jesus taught us.

setst777 said:

Thank you for your communication of what you believe fill with the Holy Spirit means.

Regarding those in the meeting place who prayed for help from God for boldness and miraculous signs to be done in Jesus name. . .

You are right, in that all those assembled in the meeting place were believers and followers of Jesus; so, they all had the Spirit of God already indwelling them by faith.

You imagine that being filled with the Spirit is compared to how a cup is filled with water. That analogy is not given in Scripture; but rather, is founded on human reasoning.

I submit to you, as Scripture reveals, that Christians who already have the Spirit can so dedicate themselves to God in fulfilling His purpose, that these Christians then give the Spirit who indwells them greater dominion and power in their lives to fulfill their commitment to God. This is the filling of the Spirit for those already saved.

For example,

Ephesians 5:15-19 (ERV)
15 So be very careful how you live. Live wisely, not like fools. 16 I mean that you should use every opportunity you have for doing good, because these are evil times. 17 So don’t be foolish with your lives, but learn what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Don’t be drunk with wine, which will ruin your life, but be filled with the Spirit. 19 Encourage each other with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your hearts to the Lord.

We are admonished by the Apostle Paul to be filled with the Spirit. HOW? By faithfully abstaining from wicked and foolish living, and committing to doing good and praising God always.

Paul is not saying they must pour more Spirit inside of them. The Spirit is a person who indwells all Christians by faith.

Initially repentant believers in Jesus are filled with the Spirit by that faith, meaning the Spirit came to dwell in those who repent and believe in Jesus.

However, as Christians commit themselves to greater service to God by faith, or are recommitting their lives to God after having been sidetracked, such Christians are giving the Spirit that indwells them greater authority over their lives. This is the filling.

If we are already one with Christ by that same Spirit, how can you be filled with more Spirit?

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 (NIV)
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in Spirit.

As regards the Power of the Spirit displayed by the Spirit within us in Jesus' name, this is something Lord Jesus promised to all those who believe in Him. For the Spirit to work its power through us, we must have a committed faith expressed in obedience to our Lord Jesus, and our motives must be pure.

For instance

Mark 11:23-25 (ERV)
23 The truth is, you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, mountain, fall into the sea.’ And if you have no doubts in your mind and believe that what you say will happen, then God will do it for you.

John 14:12-16 (ERV)
12 “I can assure you that whoever believes in me will do the same things I have done. And they will do even greater things than I have done, because I am going to the Father.

Mark 16:17-20 (ERV)
17 And the people who believe will be able to do these things as proof: They will use my name to force demons out of people. They will speak in languages they never learned. 18 If they pick up snakes or drink any poison, they will not be hurt. They will lay their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Colossians 2:8 It is only human tradition and comes from the powers that influence this world. 9 I say this because all of God lives in Christ fully, even in his life on earth. 10 And because you belong to Christ you are complete, having everything you need. Christ is ruler over every other power and authority.

Just as Christ was complete while on earth, having the Spirit of God; so too, if I belong to Christ, and am complete in Christ, when I repented (committed to die to the old Man and put on the New Man created to be like Christ Jesus) and received Jesus as my Lord by Faith (to live for and follow Him) then I must have His Spirit already by faith making me fully complete in Christ. If Christ dwells in me by His Spirit, then His authority is already mine by faith in Jesus, in the name of Jesus - just as Lord Jesus taught us.

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OK thanks for the post, but when i say the holy spirit filling you is like filling a vessel, is because that is what happened to me, there can be several 'levels' of this, i was in church one day and the Holy spirit filled me, i was astonished and didn't think God could interact with people in this kind of way, one week later when i went again to church, the Holy spirit filled me more until it could have seem it was 'a top' and i couldn't be filled more, it was clear that i was filled somewhat but there was even more, and this needs to be renewed as well, its not something that keeps that way forever, sometimes you need to seek to receive again like it happened there with the apostles, they received again.

NBB said:

I don't like all that and i have never experienced it, the shaking etc. but people drag down all that with believing in gifts and being filled, that its not ok, also now you say 'i felt the presence of God' is like those are just feelings, dangerous stuff? not walking by faith, immature etc...

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The gifts of the Spirit are His tools of trade. They are the way the Holy Spirit works in and through the church. Not having the gifts in operation is like a mechanic trying to fix your car with just a crescent wrench instead of the full range of tools necessary to do the job. These gifts are operated by faith as the Spirit leads.

It is not wrong or immature to have the sense of the presence of God. When I sense something good happening through the work of the Holy Spirit I feel joy, and I start to laugh. (not uncontrolled kundalini laughter!). It's like hearing a good joke and laughing at it. Or if I hear a good sermon or Youtube message that impacts me, I feel real pleasure and enjoyment at the new insight that I am receiving. These are normal responses to things that happen to us. I can have a sense of danger when something is not right. There is a real sense of satisfaction and accomplishment in doing a job well and being successful at it.

These are quite different from the fleshly manifestations that go on in hyped up conference meetings, to assure folk of the presence of God. God's presence is with us all the time; in fact, He is right inside of us! This is whether we feel it or not. If we have to feel something before we will believe it, then that is not faith. Some people, when they get goose bumps up their spine in a emotionally charged atmosphere, they say, "Oh, this is the presence of God!" I don't think that is is anything more than just goosebumps up the spine because of the emotion of the moment!

But when we are struggling with our shortcomings and failures, and go to Christ for assurance, holding on the 1 John 1:9, and getting a confirmation verse like, "Those who have received Christ have the right to call themselves the sons of God", and you get the assurance that in spite of our shortcomings and failures that you are a real son of God, you get a real sense of assurance and excitement knowing that God knows you, loves you and has totally forgiven you. You sense a new freedom with Him, and you start expressing praise and thankfulness for it. That is what I mean by having the feelings that are right and appropriate. You don't have to work up those feelings. They just happen when you know that God has blessed you in some way.

When my daughter calls me on the phone, I sense real pleasure at hearing her voice. So when I hear God's voice speaking to me through Scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit witnesses to me that what I am hearing is true, I get real pleasure out of that. Actually, most of the time, we just have a sense of peace and security knowing that Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us no matter what happens. That, to me, is worth more than gold!

NBB said:

Thanks for telling me i'm dumb, deceived and an idol worshipper, a wolf in sheep clothes, now i could bet my life that when i was filled with the Holy spirit a time ago, that it was him, and this is an experience christians can have and doesn't happen always at believing. You have your interpretation of the bible, i have an event happening to me as described in another interpretation of bible.

Siiiigh....

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I must be dumb too, even after gaining an MA and a M.Div, 45 years of studying Puritan and Reformed theology and church history; being accused of worshiping idols, involved in the occult - all because I believe that the Spiritual gifts are just as valid and operating today in the church as they did in the First Century including tongues and prophecy (which are clearly set out in the New Testament)

But in one sense, our fine feathered friend is correct:
"There are no good Christians; only vile sinners saved by the grace of God" (D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
"I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all" (quoted by Charles Spurgeon).

Two men went to the Temple to pray. The first one said to God, "I pray every day, attend church three times a week, pay my tithes, study my Bible, live a pure, moral life; and I am really thankful I am not like these idol worshiping, dumb, Charismatic wolves in sheep's clothing, and that I subscribe to sound doctrine. And I am glad I'm not like that guy over there. I'll bet he's a deluded Pentecostal, pretty unsophisticated and uneducated!"
The second man could not lift his eyes to heaven, but got on his knees and prayed, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner."
Jesus said, "Which one went away justified?"
(My modernised paraphrase!)

NBB said:

Thanks for telling me i'm dumb, deceived and an idol worshipper, a wolf in sheep clothes, now i could bet my life that when i was filled with the Holy spirit a time ago, that it was him, and this is an experience christians can have and doesn't happen always at believing. You have your interpretation of the bible, i have an event happening to me as described in another interpretation of bible.

Siiiigh....

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When it comes to what Paul told us about tongues ceasing, I find some are either very dumb about what it says... Or, just plain stubborn, which makes them as good as dumb.

God gives a warning, and a believer who rejects it is smart?

A believer who places his personal experience above what the Word tells us is not exactly smart. Have it be known. I can be just as dumb if I choose to be about other things.

The Bible says...


I did not write that. The Holy Spirit had it put into writing. The Holy Spirit that I have and am filled with as long as I acknowledge my sins when I see them! (1 John 1:9)

The Spirit who Jesus said is to lead us into all truth. Truth! What the Word of God actually says.

Oscarr said:

I must be dumb too, even after gaining an MA and a M.Div, 45 years of studying Puritan and Reformed theology and church history; being accused of worshiping idols, involved in the occult - all because I believe that the Spiritual gifts are just as valid and operating today in the church as they did in the First Century including tongues and prophecy (which are clearly set out in the New Testament)

But in one sense, our fine feathered friend is correct:
"There are no good Christians; only vile sinners saved by the grace of God" (D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
"I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all" (quoted by Charles Spurgeon).

Two men went to the Temple to pray. The first one said to God, "I pray every day, attend church three times a week, pay my tithes, study my Bible, live a pure, moral life; and I am really thankful I am not like these idol worshiping, dumb, Charismatic wolves in sheep's clothing, and that I subscribe to sound doctrine. And I am glad I'm not like that guy over there. I'll bet he's a deluded Pentecostal, pretty unsophisticated and uneducated!"
The second man could not lift his eyes to heaven, but got on his knees and prayed, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner."
Jesus said, "Which one went away justified?"
(My modernised paraphrase!)

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Oscarr said:

But in one sense, our fine feathered friend is correct:
"There are no good Christians; only vile sinners saved by the grace of God" (D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
"I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all" (quoted by Charles Spurgeon).

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I am not sure what you are thinking when you quote Lloyd-Jones and Spurgeon.

As a Christian, I no longer see myself as a defeated poor vile sinner, and nothing at all. I see myself as God now sees me. . .

Through faith in Jesus I am now a son of God, a child of the Kingdom of God, a conqueror and over-comer made righteous in Christ Jesus - a priest and ambassador of God. . . a holy vessel in whom the Spirit of God dwells having every Spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus.

As a disciple of Jesus, I am indwelt with God's Spirit, partaking of the Divine Nature, giving me power and victory over sin, and giving me authority in Jesus' name to the Glory of God.

True, I use to be sold under bondage to sin. Yes, I use to be defeated. I use to be nothing without Christ. I know that. But God paid the ultimate price to save us from that empty defeated life of slavery to the carnal nature in fulfilling its lusts, and to save a people for Himself (His Bride) - who Love God and who's faith leads them to obedience and a holy life before Him. God calls us out of filth of our empty carnal lives to be His Holy Priesthood, children of God who call upon Him as their Father.

Oscarr said:

I must be dumb too, even after gaining an MA and a M.Div, 45 years of studying Puritan and Reformed theology and church history; being accused of worshiping idols, involved in the occult - all because I believe that the Spiritual gifts are just as valid and operating today in the church as they did in the First Century including tongues and prophecy (which are clearly set out in the New Testament)

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The Pharisees and Scribes were the Ph.D's of their day. These were the doctors of theology. That is why they often time referred the the disciples as uneducated.

They even challenged Jesus because he never attended the higher education like they had... But, with Jesus, they could not refute Him. He made them fools because here was a man without their formal education, and he was teaching theological circles around them. Its one of the reasons they hated him so.

A great teaching on what I just covered can be learned for yourself by ordering recorded lessons taught by a pastor I know, who taught the Book of John from the Greek text, including historical backgrounds. If you contacted this ministry, you would be sent the first 36 hours of teaching. It would be sent your way without asking for a single penny. Its all grace. This pastor used to be invited to universities to teach the student body. Even MIT asked him to teach.

NBB said:

lol, ok, i don't know why i didn't get it, i know the word composing but it passed right trough my mind.

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Sometimes we can only think of one interpretation of a word. I had that happen recently when someone asked me what a compass was. My immediately response was it's a tool used to draw circles. And thinking that there was no other thing called a compass. Then she said what about the compass we use for directions. My reaction was of course!

setst777 said:

I am not sure what you are thinking when you quote Lloyd-Jones and Spurgeon.

As a Christian, I no longer see myself as a defeated poor vile sinner, and nothing at all. I see myself as God now sees me. . .

Through faith in Jesus I am now a son of God, a child of the Kingdom of God, a conqueror and over-comer made righteous in Christ Jesus - a priest and ambassador of God. . . a holy vessel in whom the Spirit of God dwells having every Spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus.

As a disciple of Jesus, I am indwelt with God's Spirit, partaking of the Divine Nature, giving me power and victory over sin, and giving me authority in Jesus' name to the Glory of God.

True, I use to be sold under bondage to sin. Yes, I use to be defeated. I use to be nothing without Christ. I know that. But God paid the ultimate price to save us from that empty defeated life of slavery to the carnal nature in fulfilling its lusts, and to save a people for Himself (His Bride) - who Love God and who's faith leads them to obedience and a holy life before Him. God calls us out of filth of our empty carnal lives to be His Holy Priesthood, children of God who call upon Him as their Father.

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God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. The Scripture says that we should not think of ourselves more than we aught to think. In ourselves, we are vile sinners, deserving of hell, with a great debt to pay to God; but Jesus came and paid that debt, setting us free from the guilt, penalty and condemnation of sin. But we still have the presence of sin with us and we must always be aware that we maintain our faith solely in Christ unless we become castaways.

Oscarr said:

Two men went to the Temple to pray. The first one said to God, "I pray every day, attend church three times a week, pay my tithes, study my Bible, live a pure, moral life; and I am really thankful I am not like these idol worshiping, dumb, Charismatic wolves in sheep's clothing, and that I subscribe to sound doctrine. And I am glad I'm not like that guy over there. I'll bet he's a deluded Pentecostal, pretty unsophisticated and uneducated!"
The second man could not lift his eyes to heaven, but got on his knees and prayed, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner."
Jesus said, "Which one went away justified?"
(My modernised paraphrase!)

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That's not how I would see it. My prayer would be quite different.. Because, I know it is.

"Father in Jesus name... I am not sufficient for the task in my humanity for such a task. I ask you for grace and wisdom to expose this error, so that those who are searching for answers to this apostasy, may find the truth to make them feel free to break away and remove themselves from the dogmatism and zeal that this teaching imposes on those who find themselves under it. "

Oscarr said:

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. The Scripture says that we should not think of ourselves more than we aught to think. In ourselves, we are vile sinners, deserving of hell, with a great debt to pay to God; but Jesus came and paid that debt, setting us free from the guilt, penalty and condemnation of sin. But we still have the presence of sin with us and we must always be aware that we maintain our faith solely in Christ unless we become castaways.

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If you are still a vile sinner, if that is still how you see yourself, after learning of God's great love and promises to us in Christ Jesus, then you are not saved at all.

I can back up everything that I wrote in my message to you of the precious and great salvation we now possess in Christ Jesus. But you seem to choose to reject this great salvation for yourself, because you think that would be proud of you.

The real pride is saying to God that He is wrong about you, that you are still a vile sinner after God saved you from that life... And to say you are not holy, that you are not a child of God, an heir of the Kingdom of God, a priest of God indwelt with His Spirit. To deny what God has done for you is the real pride.

The struggle for every Christian throughout their lives is the struggle we have between the carnal mind and the Spirit. However, a Christian - one who lives by faith in God - has victory over the carnal mind, the Spirit giving our faith victory. A true Christian no longer lives in sin, is no longer a slave of sin. However, if we should sin in weakness, then if we repent, God is faithful to forgive us and set us right on the path again. That is the Love of God for those who have a living faith in Christ Jesus.

Those who endure to the end will be eternally saved.

1 Peter 1 (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade.

This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who, through faith, are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Be Holy
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written:
“Be holy, because I am holy.”

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

And this is the word that was preached to you.

setst777 said:

If you are still a vile sinner, if that is still how you see yourself, after learning of God's great love and promises to us in Christ Jesus, then you are not saved at all.

I can back up everything that I wrote in my message to you of the precious and great salvation we now possess in Christ Jesus. But you seem to choose to reject this great salvation for yourself, because you think that would be proud of you.

The real pride is saying to God that He is wrong about you, that you are still a vile sinner after God saved you from that life... And to say you are not holy, that you are not a child of God, an heir of the Kingdom of God, a priest of God indwelt with His Spirit. To deny what God has done for you is the real pride.

The struggle for every Christian throughout their lives is the struggle we have between the carnal mind and the Spirit. However, a Christian - one who lives by faith in God - has victory over the carnal mind, the Spirit giving our faith victory. A true Christian no longer lives in sin, is no longer a slave of sin. However, if we should sin in weakness, then if we repent, God is faithful to forgive us and set us right on the path again. That is the Love of God for those who have a living faith in Christ Jesus.

Those who endure to the end will be eternally saved.

1 Peter 1 (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade.

This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who, through faith, are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Be Holy
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written:
“Be holy, because I am holy.”

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

And this is the word that was preached to you.

Click to expand...

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me." That is where I stand with God.

At the same time, I agree with Paul when he said, "There is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh." That is what I mean when I say that I am just a poor sinner and nothing at all. My own righteousness is still as filthy rags before God. That is why the righteousness of Christ, bestowed on me as a free gift, covers my own shortcomings, imperfections and faults.

Oscarr said:

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me." That is where I stand with God.

At the same time, I agree with Paul when he said, "There is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh." That is what I mean when I say that I am just a poor sinner and nothing at all. My own righteousness is still as filthy rags before God. That is why the righteousness of Christ, bestowed on me as a free gift, covers my own shortcomings, imperfections and faults.

Click to expand...

There is nothing good in your flesh. And that is why you were crucified to the flesh when you believed in Jesus.

Christians are no longer controlled by the flesh, for they died to the flesh as their master so they may now belong to another - our rightful Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.

Romans 6

When we obey Christ Jesus through faith, we are walking by His Spirit, His Spirit giving us the victory over sin and Spiritual death...

Romans 8

You still are stubbornly claiming your reality of life as the carnal flesh - the old man of sin is still your Master.

Those who are true Christians have died to the old man of sin, and gave become servants of Jesus, of righteousness, and God's holy children.

Romans 6 (NIV)
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!

22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Oscarr said:

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me." That is where I stand with God.

At the same time, I agree with Paul when he said, "There is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh." That is what I mean when I say that I am just a poor sinner and nothing at all. My own righteousness is still as filthy rags before God. That is why the righteousness of Christ, bestowed on me as a free gift, covers my own shortcomings, imperfections and faults.

Click to expand...

We all make mistakes along the way. Even Paul did. By default, recognizing one is a sinner does not mean he is standing right with God. It only means he knows at least that much truth. I know a certain denomination that teaches were are sinners by nature, yet teaches some of the most absurd false doctrines as well.. In itself? Its an excellent beginning.

Recognizing that nothing good dwells in my flesh should also send me a red light warning.. That if at any point I become subjective? Ending in what I accept to believe? It will cause me to lose the filling of the Spirit because of that sin. Another spirit may be inducing good emotions (seen it happen with hypnotists and an audience) and confuse those nice emotions as being the peace from God. Peace from God could be having someone shooting at you and having no fear. Not, good emotions.

Here is a problem Paul saw concerning believers emotions running their lives. Paul taught about it while weeping over them.

There is a principle mentioned by Paul that often times gets translated literally, when in fact, its an idiomatic expression that was commonly used in the ancient world. The word "belly/stomach" to the ancients was a word used to describe what we today call the emotions.


Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters,
and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those
who live as we do. For, as I have often told you before and
now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies
of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god
is their stomach [EMOTIONS], and their glory is in their
shame. Their mind is set on earthly things." Phlp 3:17-16

I have found that the members of Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations to be strongly motivated by their emotions.

I have learned and witnessed to first hand the following.. Hypnotists tap into an aspect concerning certain souls who can be effected .... For, one professional hypnotist taught us that not everyone is able to be hypnotized. Only certain people can be. Likewise, not every believer will be finding an affinity for what the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches offer.

The body of Christ consists of all kinds of people. One believer's strength is there to protect another without it. And, visa versa.

It all boils down the the objective Word of God. Its what can save us from our subjective zeal. God requires that we be willing to accept what it says when its clarified.. Not to resist as some do, and fought over with rationalizations and subjectivity.

That is the reason why Jesus said if anyone wants to be His disciple? That we will be required to take up our own cross and to deny self. Why? For the Word has something for everybody. Some truth that they will hate to admit it were true. Something that will make us uncomfortable to accept and to live by... God tests our minds and emotions. His Word will test us.

setst777 said:

There is nothing good in your flesh. And that is why you were crucified to the flesh when you believed in Jesus.

Christians are no longer controlled by the flesh, for they died to the flesh as their master so they may now belong to another - our rightful Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

No problem there.

When we obey Christ Jesus through faith, we are walking by His Spirit, His Spirit giving us the victory over sin and Spiritual death...

Click to expand...

Agreed in principle. Just a thought. In Galatians 5 Paul says that seeing that we are living in the Spirit, we should walk in the Spirit. Why would he give that instruction that we have to walk in the Spirit if walking in the Spirit was automatic?

You still are stubbornly claiming your reality of life as the carnal flesh - the old man of sin is still your Master.

Click to expand...

Who told you that?

Those who are true Christians have died to the old man of sin, and gave become servants of Jesus, of righteousness, and God's holy children.

Click to expand...

Although true, but I suspect, from your last comment, that there is an underlying implication in what you are saying about "true" Christians. Here is how I read what you are saying:
"ou still are stubbornly claiming your reality of life as the carnal flesh - the old man of sin is still your Master, but those who are "true" Christians [which you are not] have died to the old man and have become servants of Jesus, of righteousness, and God's holy Children."
So, the implication that I am reading is:
I am stubborn
The old man is still my master
I am not a true Christian
I have not died to the old man
I am not a servant of Jesus
I am not righteous
and I am not one of God's holy children.

I am merely employing comprehension 101 to your comment, so, is that what you are really implying?

genez said:

We all make mistakes along the way. Even Paul did. By default, recognizing one is a sinner does not mean he is standing right with God. It only means he knows at least that much truth. I know a certain denomination that teaches were are sinners by nature, yet teaches some of the most absurd false doctrines as well.. In itself? Its an excellent beginning.

Recognizing that nothing good dwells in my flesh should also send me a red light warning.. That if at any point I become subjective? Ending in what I accept to believe? It will cause me to lose the filling of the Spirit because of that sin. Another spirit may be inducing good emotions (seen it happen with hypnotists and an audience) and confuse those nice emotions as being the peace from God. Peace from God could be having someone shooting at you and having no fear. Not, good emotions.

Here is a problem Paul saw concerning believers emotions running their lives. Paul taught about it while weeping over them.

There is a principle mentioned by Paul that often times gets translated literally, when in fact, its an idiomatic expression that was commonly used in the ancient world. The word "belly/stomach" to the ancients was a word used to describe what we today call the emotions.


Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters,
and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those
who live as we do. For, as I have often told you before and
now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies
of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god
is their stomach [EMOTIONS], and their glory is in their
shame. Their mind is set on earthly things." Phlp 3:17-16

I have found that the members of Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations to be strongly motivated by their emotions.

I have learned and witnessed to first hand the following.. Hypnotists tap into an aspect concerning certain souls who can be effected .... For, one professional hypnotist taught us that not everyone is able to be hypnotized. Only certain people can be. Likewise, not every believer will be finding an affinity for what the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches offer.

The body of Christ consists of all kinds of people. One believer's strength is there to protect other's without it. And, visa versa.

It all boils down the the objective Word of God and be willing to accept what it says when its clarified.. Not to be resisted and fought over with rationalizations and subjectivity, unless someone is distorting the Word while a passage is yet to be understood. That is why Jesus said if anyone wants to be His disciple? That we will be required to take up our own cross and to deny self. Why? For the Word has something for everybody that they will hate to admit it were true. Something that will make us uncomfortable to accept and live by...

Click to expand...

I don't think that you can tar and feather all Pentecostals and Charismatics with the same brush.
It would be the same as me saying that all Presbyterians are liberals who don't believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection of Christ and that most of their ministers are gay, just because some are like that. Or that all Catholic priests are child sexual abusers, when it is a small minority who actually are. Or it is like the police in some states of Southern United States viewing all African Americans as potential criminals, persecuting and abusing innocent people as though they are already criminals.

That's what generalisation does.

Oscarr said:

No problem there.

Click to expand...

setst777 said: ↑
There is nothing good in your flesh. And that is why you were crucified to the flesh when you believed in Jesus.

Christians are no longer controlled by the flesh, for they died to the flesh as their master so they may now belong to another - our rightful Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.

Oscarr said:

No problem there.

Click to expand...

Setst RE: There was a problem before. Here is what you quoted and stated:

Oscarr said:

"There are no good Christians; only vile sinners saved by the grace of God" (D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones).

"I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all" (quoted by Charles Spurgeon).

Click to expand...

Setst RE: Presently you confess that you are still a vile sinner, a poor sinner, and nothing at all.

Where in Scripture is a Christian still a vile sinner?

If you presently still identify yourself as a vile, poor sinner, and nothing at all AFTER all God did to save you when you repented and believed in Jesus, then what were you saved from?

Here is another of your quotes showing the same problem…

Oscarr said:

At the same time, I agree with Paul when he said, "There is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh." That is what I mean when I say that I am just a poor sinner and nothing at all. My own righteousness is still as filthy rags before God. That is why the righteousness of Christ, bestowed on me as a free gift, covers my own shortcomings, imperfections and faults.

Click to expand...

Setst RE: We all agree that we still exist in the flesh (carnal body and mind), and that there is nothing good in our flesh. However, you are still professing to be that vile poor sinner, and nothing at all, while still claiming to be saved.

Question: What were you saved from if you are still a professing vile sinner, and nothing at all?

Question: How can you still confess to be a vile poor sinner, and nothing at all, if you were actually crucified (died to) to the flesh – the old man’s carnal control over you?

How can, if you are still a vile poor sinner, be living a New Life – a victorious life as a servant of righteousness?

You can only have one master – either you are still a slave to your vile sin nature, OR you are now saved from a sinful life to follow another – Christ Jesus.

So, I don’t understand what you are saying. I want to make perfectly clear to all who claim Christ, that they are no living in defeat. They are no longer vial sinners in Christ Jesus. We are overcomers in Christ.

We as Christians are no longer living in defeat under the control of the Old Carnal Man. Christ set us free.

How can you still claim defeat, when Scripture is claiming victory for Christians – a New Life of righteousness in Christ through faith leading to holiness and resulting in eternal life? Isn’t that the Gospel… the reason Christ died for us – to save us from sin and death? Yet you say you are still a poor vile sinner.

I don't want new Christians visiting this board to be mislead in their walk with Christ.

setst777 said: ↑
When we obey Christ Jesus through faith, we are walking by His Spirit, His Spirit giving us the victory over sin and Spiritual death...

Oscarr said:

Agreed in principle. Just a thought. In Galatians 5 Paul says that seeing that we are living in the Spirit, we should walk in the Spirit. Why would he give that instruction that we have to walk in the Spirit if walking in the Spirit was automatic?

Click to expand...

Setst RE: Walking in the Spirit is never automatic.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB)
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

setst777 said: ↑
You still are stubbornly claiming your reality of life as the carnal flesh - the old man of sin is still your Master.

Oscarr said:

Who told you that?

Click to expand...

Setst RE: You did. You are still claiming to be a poor vile sinner. Under Christ Jesus, you cannot still be a poor vile sinner. That would mean you are still sold under slavery to sin.

setst777 said: ↑
Those who are true Christians have died to the old man of sin, and gave become servants of Jesus, of righteousness, and God's holy children.

Oscarr said:

Although true, but I suspect, from your last comment, that there is an underlying implication in what you are saying about "true" Christians. Here is how I read what you are saying:
"ou still are stubbornly claiming your reality of life as the carnal flesh - the old man of sin is still your Master, but those who are "true" Christians [which you are not] have died to the old man and have become servants of Jesus, of righteousness, and God's holy Children."
So, the implication that I am reading is:
I am stubborn
The old man is still my master
I am not a true Christian
I have not died to the old man
I am not a servant of Jesus
I am not righteous
and I am not one of God's holy children.

I am merely employing comprehension 101 to your comment, so, is that what you are really implying?

Click to expand...

Setst RE: That is what I am understanding from you. This is what you were implying, not me.

If you claim you are still a poor vile sinner, you are admitting that you are still a slave under sin. For no one who is saved can at the same time still be a poor vile sinner.

So, if you are still a poor vile sinner, and nothing at all, then I can only deduce, from comprehension 101, that

You are stubbornly refusing all the blessing God has for you in Christ Jesus because you say you are nothing and still a vile sinner, and to say otherwise would be pride. What does that say about God and His promises when you say that?

• The old man is still your master because you claim you are still a vile sinner.
• No true Christian remains a vile sinner.
• You have not died to the old man because you still profess to be a vial sinner.
• You cannot possibly be a servant of Jesus if you are still a vile sinner - still a slave to sin.
• You cannot be righteous if you refuse to die to sin, and if you refuse to live in obedience to Christ by faith – you claim you are a vile sinner.
• How can you be one of God's holy children if you are still living an unholy life – still a vile sinner?