LDS The Mormon Angels That Were Resurrected....

He is the way · Nov 22, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
As usual, you avoid answering the question. And you haven't dealt with the fact that John wasn't a priest. How could he be? After all, he was in the desert for a number of years and there's no evidence to support he went through the training required to be a priest.

John is a great example of how the lds "priesthood authority" concept is nothing more than made up theology from the mind of Joseph Smith.

People assume that everything is included in the Bible. Is it mentioned in the Bible where and when Paul received the priesthood? We know that Jesus Christ is a high priest. Where and when did Jesus become a high priest? I know that John the Baptist had the priesthood. Where exactly does the Bible say otherwise?

He is the way · Nov 22, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Unbaptized males of any age are not ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood. And they claim that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were ordained to the priesthood before they baptized each other!

When did Jesus receive the priesthood, before or after He was baptized?

Rescued One · Nov 22, 2019

I brought up the Mormon teaching that worthy baptized males are ordained to the Aaronic priedthood. Jesus was never an Aaronic priest nor did He need a ceremony to endow Him with authority.

Matthew 1
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

(False gods have no authority.)

Matthew 24
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and fscribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And thou Beth-lehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Matthew 7
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matthew 8
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. 33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils. 34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

(God doesn't need a ceremony or an annointing to use His authority.)

Matthew 9
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. 4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

mmksparbud · Nov 22, 2019

He is the way said:
People assume that everything is included in the Bible. Is it mentioned in the Bible where and when Paul received the priesthood? We know that Jesus Christ is a high priest. Where and when did Jesus become a high priest? I know that John the Baptist had the priesthood. Where exactly does the Bible say otherwise?

The bible says He is our High Priest. Nothing in the bible calls Paul a priest---or any other apostle or disciple. Nothing in the bible says John was a priest. He was eligible to be a priest, but nothing says he ever took the training. He is never called John the Priest, he spend his time in the wilderness, not the temple. You are the only one that "knows" he was a priest---nothing in the bible says he was. His father was. It states that. JOHN WAS NOT A PRIEST
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

He came in the spirit of Elias---Elijah. And Elijah was not a priest either.

ViaCrucis · Nov 23, 2019

He is the way said:
People assume that everything is included in the Bible. Is it mentioned in the Bible where and when Paul received the priesthood?

St. Paul never received a priesthood.

We know that Jesus Christ is a high priest. Where and when did Jesus become a high priest?

Read the Epistle to the Hebrews, that'll answer your question pretty well.

I know that John the Baptist had the priesthood. Where exactly does the Bible say otherwise?

Where does the Bible say that John the Baptist wasn't a cowboy with a trusty horse named Skip? That's not how this works.

And it's not about "everything is included in the Bible", because we can of course look to what the early Christians said, the writings of the fathers are pretty readily available for literally anyone to read for themselves.

So Scripture doesn't say this.
The fathers never said this.
The traditions and teachings of Christianity over the last two millennia don't say this.
Literally nothing says this.

I can only conclude that something so important should be mentioned somewhere by someone--anyone. But it's not. That's not mere argument from silence, rather it is a deafening (and quite frankly, damning) silence.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Nov 23, 2019

He is the way said:
When did Jesus receive the priesthood, before or after He was baptized?

Jesus didn't receive a "priesthood". He is the Great High Priest because He offered Himself as sacrifice for the sins of the world, and on account of His work and Person is our intercessor and mediator between us and God.

Again, read the Epistle to the Hebrews, this is in there.

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way · Nov 23, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I brought up the Mormon teaching that worthy baptized males are ordained to the Aaronic priedthood. Jesus was never an Aaronic priest nor did He need a ceremony to endow Him with authority.

Matthew 1
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

(False gods have no authority.)

Matthew 24
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and fscribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And thou Beth-lehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Matthew 7
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matthew 8
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. 33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils. 34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

(God doesn't need a ceremony or an annointing to use His authority.)

Matthew 9
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. 4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

If Jesus Christ became a high priest before His baptism, why criticize Joseph Smith for doing the same thing?

He is the way · Nov 23, 2019

mmksparbud said:
The bible says He is our High Priest. Nothing in the bible calls Paul a priest---or any other apostle or disciple. Nothing in the bible says John was a priest. He was eligible to be a priest, but nothing says he ever took the training. He is never called John the Priest, he spend his time in the wilderness, not the temple. You are the only one that "knows" he was a priest---nothing in the bible says he was. His father was. It states that. JOHN WAS NOT A PRIEST
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

He came in the spirit of Elias---Elijah. And Elijah was not a priest either.

Elias demonstrated priesthood power. Jesus said that he would come to restore all things:

(New Testament | Matthew 17:10 - 13)

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

He is the way · Nov 23, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
St. Paul never received a priesthood.

Read the Epistle to the Hebrews, that'll answer your question pretty well.

Where does the Bible say that John the Baptist wasn't a cowboy with a trusty horse named Skip? That's not how this works.

And it's not about "everything is included in the Bible", because we can of course look to what the early Christians said, the writings of the fathers are pretty readily available for literally anyone to read for themselves.

So Scripture doesn't say this.
The fathers never said this.
The traditions and teachings of Christianity over the last two millennia don't say this.
Literally nothing says this.

I can only conclude that something so important should be mentioned somewhere by someone--anyone. But it's not. That's not mere argument from silence, rather it is a deafening (and quite frankly, damning) silence.

-CryptoLutheran

You said: "Where does the Bible say that John the Baptist wasn't a cowboy with a trusty horse named Skip? That's not how this works."

Neither does it work by the method that if the Bible does not say it happened, then it didn't happen. Many things happened that were not written in the Bible.

He is the way · Nov 23, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Jesus didn't receive a "priesthood". He is the Great High Priest because He offered Himself as sacrifice for the sins of the world, and on account of His work and Person is our intercessor and mediator between us and God.

Again, read the Epistle to the Hebrews, this is in there.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes Jesus did receive the priesthood, He was a high priest.

mmksparbud · Nov 23, 2019

He is the way said:
Elias demonstrated priesthood power. Jesus said that he would come to restore all things:

(New Testament | Matthew 17:10 - 13)

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Elijah did no such thing---the High Priest had no "powers"---it was the prophets that did the miracles, not the priests. The priest job was to preside over the sacrificial ceremonies. With the Urim and Thummim God answered questions. Elijah had no priestly powers for priests had none. Prophets did. Elijah was no priest and neither was John the Baptist. He was never called John the priest.

mmksparbud · Nov 23, 2019

He is the way said:
Yes Jesus did receive the priesthood, He was a high priest.

No, Jesus was not a High Priest----After His ascension He became and still is our High Priest. While on earth, He was subject to and obeyed the High Priest's rules. Even as a child He was circumcised and obeyed the feast days. He was never an earthly priest.

ViaCrucis · Nov 24, 2019

He is the way said:
Yes Jesus did receive the priesthood, He was a high priest.

Not a high priest. The great high priest, because He offered Himself once and for all for the sins of the world. Again, read the Epistle to the Hebrews.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Nov 24, 2019

He is the way said:
Elias demonstrated priesthood power. Jesus said that he would come to restore all things:

(New Testament | Matthew 17:10 - 13)

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Elijah wasn't a priest either. But was a prophet of God. And St. John the Baptist fulfills the promise of Elijah's return "before the great and dreadful day of the LORD", for he would turn the hearts of the children to their fathers and the hearts of the fathers to their children. To be the voice crying in the wilderness "Prepare the way of the LORD". And so St. John the Baptist came "in the spirit and power of Elijah" to fulfill this promise.

But neither the actual Elijah who faced the false prophets of Baal, nor the Blessed Forerunner were priests in any sense or in any capacity. But they were both prophets.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Nov 24, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "Where does the Bible say that John the Baptist wasn't a cowboy with a trusty horse named Skip? That's not how this works."

Neither does it work by the method that if the Bible does not say it happened, then it didn't happen. Many things happened that were not written in the Bible.

So do you believe it is acceptable to make something up simply because the Bible doesn't say yes or no? Can I say that St. Thomas had a pet cat named Mittens? I mean, the Bible doesn't say Thomas didn't have a cat named Mittens.

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way · Nov 24, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Elijah did no such thing---the High Priest had no "powers"---it was the prophets that did the miracles, not the priests. The priest job was to preside over the sacrificial ceremonies. With the Urim and Thummim God answered questions. Elijah had no priestly powers for priests had none. Prophets did. Elijah was no priest and neither was John the Baptist. He was never called John the priest.

The high priests did have power from God:

(New Testament | John 11:51)

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

He is the way · Nov 24, 2019

mmksparbud said:
No, Jesus was not a High Priest----After His ascension He became and still is our High Priest. While on earth, He was subject to and obeyed the High Priest's rules. Even as a child He was circumcised and obeyed the feast days. He was never an earthly priest.

I believe that Jesus was a high priest before His ascension:

(New Testament | Luke 4:16 - 21)

16 ¶ And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

He is the way · Nov 24, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
So do you believe it is acceptable to make something up simply because the Bible doesn't say yes or no? Can I say that St. Thomas had a pet cat named Mittens? I mean, the Bible doesn't say Thomas didn't have a cat named Mittens.

-CryptoLutheran

The gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth as taught in the scriptures:

(New Testament | Matthew 17:10 - 13)

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

ViaCrucis · Nov 24, 2019

He is the way said:
The gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth as taught in the scriptures:

(New Testament | Matthew 17:10 - 13)

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Notice verse 12? "Elijah has come already" because He was speaking about John the Baptist. How did John the Baptist "restore all things"? It certainly can't be some restoration of the Gospel, as the proclamation of the Gospel didn't begin until after John was arrested,

"Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the good news.'" - Mark 1:14-15

But what did John do?

"Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared." - Luke 1:13-17

This, as it was written:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction." - Malachi 4:5-6

"A voice cries:
'In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
and the rough places a plain.
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all flesh shall see it together,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.'" - Isaiah 40:3-5

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, 'I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?' But Jesus answered him, 'Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'" - Matthew 3:13-17

With this has been fulfilled all which was hoped for and promised, the Messiah has come. And so the work of the Forerunner was accomplished, as he himself says,

"John answered, 'A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, "I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him." The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease.'" - John 3:27-30

In this way Elijah came and restored all things, even as the ancient prophets had foretold.

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Nov 24, 2019

He is the way said:
I believe that Jesus was a high priest before His ascension:

(New Testament | Luke 4:16 - 21)

16 ¶ And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Being anointed to preach is not the same as being anointed as the One and only High Priest. Jesus could only attain to His Priesthood upon His death. He was the sacrificial Lamb as well and it is His shed blood that He, as High Priest in the temple of heaven, offers for forgiveness of sins. He could not do that until His death and His ascension into the heavenly sanctuary.

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