Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

jgr · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
Personally, I believe you can be unsaved on an individual level - while belonging to a saved group.

Sure.

Notice what John labels them.

Do you think they were individually saved then?

Do you think they are individually saved now?

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

thomas_t · Nov 22, 2019

Hi Parousia,

parousia70 said:
But thomas, You don't seem to require any evidence before you say to someone who says "I am Biblical Israel", you immediately say "yes I agree you are Israel, you must be, for you say so"

no I don't say anything if I were in this situation. I can't look into their hearts.

parousia70 said:
If Christians can't be meant in this verse, how is it you can assert that ANY person today who has no verifiable genetic link to any pre-desolation Hebrew person, CAN be meant?

I didn't say that. It's the inward Jew that makes a Jew - Romans 2:29. But I can't look inwardly into other people's inward beings. I'm not a prophet who can do these sorts of things.

parousia70 said:
(Except of course those people who have pledged their Fidelity and allegiance to, and have become loyal subjects of Israel's King, Jesus Christ, then you say "NO! You loyal subjects of the King of Israel are NOT Israel, it's only those who REJECT the King of Israel who must be counted as Israel")

No I didn't say that. I referred to Israel on a group level, knowing that some are there who still believe Jesus.

parousia70 said:
You have a very bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).
YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

No I didn't do that (your passage in red). So you happened to misquote me three times, please allow me not to read the rest of your first post. It's for reasons of time. Thank you.
---
Hi Gal,

mkgal1 said:
Look at Romans 11:19-21 (which seems to suggest otherwise):

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

ah, you made an interesting point. It's my theology that the olive (this is what your passage refers to)... is not equal to Israel. It's the olive. Prove me wrong in case I missed any scripture on this.
---
Hi J,

jgr said:
Hi T,

So what are the scriptural characteristics that differentiate those individuals who are not "all Jews", from those individuals who are "all Jews"?

Please note I was saying all Israel is saved - as opposed to all Jews.
As concerning your other question - with regard to who is and who is not saved individually... I have no idea. Note I'm not a teacher or anything like that.

Thomas

mkgal1 · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
ah, you made an interesting point. It's my theology that the olive (this is what your passage refers to)... is not equal to Israel. It's the olive. Prove me wrong in case I missed any scripture on this.

Then we probably need a clarification from you on that, then. Where's the distinction made in Scripture?

parousia70 · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Parousia,

no I don't say anything if I were in this situation. I can't look into their hearts.

Well, if you admittedly can't identify who IS Biblical Israel, How is it you can be so sure who ISN'T? (ie; the Church... made up of the Loyal Subjects and true followers of Israel's reigning King, Jesus Christ)

thomas_t said:
No I didn't say that. I referred to Israel on a group level, knowing that some are there who still believe Jesus.

At what point does the Inward Jew who believes and obeys Jesus CEASE being part of the "saved group Israel"? And what scripture teaches that this removal from the saved group Israel happens to these people who choose to follow and Obey Israel's King??

The Notion that in order to be counted among the saved group Israel, one has to, inwardly, reject the Son of God, reigning King of Israel, is again, polar opposite to Apostolic teaching (and common sense).

For scripture teaches, ANYONE who does not have the Son, does not have the Father either. (1 John 2:23)

mkgal1 · Nov 22, 2019

This is the beginning of Romans 11:

The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” ?
4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

......and then beginning in verse 11 - the believing Gentiles are mentioned as the "ingrafted branches"

Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

......and Paul continues to describe the olive tree root and branches:

Romans 11:16-21 ~
If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Where do you see indication of a change of subject, @thomas_t ? ISTM that all the above has to do with the end of Romans, chapter 11 - this passage in v 26-27:

Romans 11:26-27 ~ And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

mkgal1 · Nov 22, 2019

This is the Greek Orthodox icon for the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptizer. Notice the olive tree in the lower left corner - and the ax laid there? This icon is read as relating to Matthew 3:8-10:

The Mission of John the Baptist
Matthew 3:8-10 ~ Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance. And do not presume to say within yourselves, 'We have Abraham as father.' For I say to you that out of these stones God is able to raise up children unto Abraham. The ax lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

jgr · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
As concerning your other question - with regard to who is and who is not saved individually... I have no idea.

Scripture does.

Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

That excludes practising Jews both individually and as a group.

Because sadly, the practising Jew rejects the Lord Jesus.

It excludes anyone who refuses to place their faith in the Lord Jesus, and to obey Him.

Faith and obedience. The exclusive identifiers of the true believer.

Only and always.

William Lefranc · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi William,

Yes I do. Germany as a country does not proclaim Christ as savior, either. However, unlike Germany Israel has rockets exploding among them every day fired from Gaza or Lebanon. They listen to anti-semitic rantings from all over the world every day. Do you know a place where Israel is NOT hated?
---

Sorry, Thomas, I was talking about the word of God, not politics. Israel is nothing but an illusion and a deception because Jesus finished redemption for the whole world at the cross. In other words, Jesus is God's last word to the world. So either we believe in Him or we perish eternally. This includes false Israel.

God's people are only those who are born again and who have the seal of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3,7; Eph. 1:13-14).

thomas_t · Nov 22, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Then we probably need a clarification from you on that, then. Where's the distinction made in Scripture?

Wouldn't you agree that the onus is on you? You've implicitely claimed that the olive is Israel. That's a positive claim.
Since you are asking me... I didn't see any change of subject in Romans 11,
Thomas
---

parousia70 said:
Well, if you admittedly can't identify who IS Biblical Israel, How is it you can be so sure who ISN'T? (ie; the Church... made up of the Loyal Subjects and true followers of Israel's reigning King, Jesus Christ)

While it is true that I can't determine single cases, saying who is and who is not a Jew... I can identify Israel as being the entirety of inward Jews in accordance with Romans 2:29. The very inward Jews I can't recognise from the outside... they make up Israel. Bible tells they exist and by them Israel is Jewish - not Christian.
The church in contrast consists of Christians, not Jews (left apart the few Messianic Jews in the world)...
In short: I do have a concise opinion on who is Israel on the macro level. However, on the micro scale, I can't say who exactly takes part in Israel, since I don't know the inward lives of people.

parousia70 said:
At what point does the Inward Jew who believes and obeys Jesus CEASE being part of the "saved group Israel"?

I didn't say this! Communicating with you, at the moment, is horrible.

parousia70 said:
The Notion that in order to be counted among the saved group Israel, one has to, inwardly, reject the Son of God, reigning King of Israel, is again, polar opposite to Apostolic teaching (and common sense).

Are you saying I said so?
I didn't say this, either. Please stay correct in quoting me.
---

jgr said:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

That excludes practising Jews both individually and as a group.

That's not true, in my opinion, the passage adresses individuals - "thou". Groups, in contrast, don't have a heart this passage is speaking of.

keras · Nov 22, 2019

The current inhabitants of Israel and in all of the holy Land, face Judgment and punishment in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

Jeremiah chapter 13:1-10 Jeremiah is instructed to buy a loincloth. He is then told to hide it near a river. After a long time, he retrieved it, but it was ruined.

Jeremiah 13:11-27 Thus, I shall ruin the enormous pride of Judah, these people with stubborn hearts, who worship other gods – they will become like that cloth, no good for anything. Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 8:5-12

......I bound all Israel and all Judah to Me, so that they should become a source of renown and praise to Me, but they did not listen. Isaiah 31:6-7
....I shall make all who live in Jerusalem drunk..... I shall show no compassion nor refrain from destroying them. Obadiah 12-16

Pay heed, be not too proud to listen, for it is the Lord who speaks.
Give glory to God, before the light that you look for turns to darkness.
If in the depths you will not listen, then weep bitterly for the Lords people are carried off into captivity. [Judah conquered by Babylon and again in AD70] Ezekiel 21:14

Say to the King and the Queen mother; take a humble seat, for your crowns have fallen. Ezekiel 21:25-27

The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.
This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, +

Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North.
The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the Land. Isaiah 41:8-10

Where is the flock that you were so proud of?
God’s people scattered among the nations.

What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins. Isaiah 3:1-3

Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9

I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind. Jeremiah 33:14
This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see. Isaiah 3:16-26

For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean? Nahum 1:12-15

This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.

Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.

parousia70 · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
Wouldn't you agree that the onus is on you? You've implicitely claimed that the olive is Israel. That's a positive claim.

It is (Jeremiah 11:16-17). Unbelieving jews were cut off from the people of God, and believing gentiles were added to God's people (Eph 2:12-14). Believing Jews stayed put as true Israel.

Unbelieving natural branches were cut off from among the people. Believing natural branches stayed put as the people of God (the apostles, John, Joseph and Mary, Elizabeth, the 70, the three thousand at Pentecost, etc). Wild olive branches were added in to the people of God. That is true Israel.

Since you are asking me... I didn't see any change of subject in Romans 11,

The "remnant" was the true believing Israel, and the olive tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of that Israel. Unbelieving jews were cut off (Acts 3:22-24), and believing gentiles joined into believing jewish Israel (John, Mary and Joseph, the apostles, the jewish church, etc.). All the elect of Israel are saved, and that Israel corresponds to the now jewish/gentile Church of Jesus the Messiah.

I didn't say this! Communicating with you, at the moment, is horrible.
Are you saying I said so?
I didn't say this, either. Please stay correct in quoting me.

I'm merely stating the logical conclusions of your position as I see them.
I urge you to demonstrate why those conclusions are not true.

Here's what the Bible teaches:

The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Romans 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Romans 4:16/Galatians 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Galatians 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Ephesians 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Peter 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Philippians 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Revelation 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 John 2:23)

The Church has never REPLACED Israel, it always WAS, and Remains Israel...

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the 7000 Faithful of Israel who refused to Bow their Knee to Baal also "Replaced" Israel (1 Kings 19:1-18; Romans 11:2-36)

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying The Faithful "Church" of the nation in the Wilderness "Replaced" Israel when they entered the Promised Land (Numbers 14:26-45; Numbers 21:5-9; Numbers 16:1-50, Acts 7:38-45)

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the small but faithful remnant In Isaiah's day "Replaced" Israel. (Isaiah 10:22-23; Isaiah 1:7-9; Romans 9:27-29)

The Church NEVER Replaced Israel, the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel, and indeed is the only entity through which the continuation of the NATION of Israel itself MUST be counted, for the rest were cut off forever (Acts 3:22-24)

jgr · Nov 22, 2019

thomas_t said:
That's not true, in my opinion, the passage adresses individuals - "thou". Groups, in contrast, don't have a heart this passage is speaking of.

A group does not exist apart from its individuals.

From Merriam-Webster:

group
noun, often attributive
\ ˈgrüp \
Definition of group
(Entry 1 of 2)
1: two or more figures forming a complete unit in a compositionwent there as a group
2a: a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship

thomas_t · Nov 23, 2019

Hi Parousia,
oh, you didn't misquote me this time? Thanks.
I've admitted that Messianic Jews belong to Israel. However, they can't transform it into a Christian country.

parousia70 said:
The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Romans 2:27-29)

That's not true. This passage is about being inwardly Jewish. That's all. They don't say I am a Jew in this passage.

parousia70 said:
say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Galatians 6:15-16)

no, noone makes a claim to be the Israel of God, at least in the Bible I'm reading I don't read of any such claims.

parousia70 said:
Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it.

no, they merely show similarities between the two groups. That comes with the territory. Jesus was a Jew, the Apostles were, the first churches were... so why shouldn't Christians be strongly influenced by this society? Of course they are.

parousia70 said:
The Church [...] always WAS, and Remains Israel...

I don't agree. The church didn't begin until Christ was there. All else would be anachronistic, in my opinion.

parousia70 said:
the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel,

Faithful remnants have never been labelled church (ekklesia in Greek). It's your invention, I guess.
Note that Acts 3:23 doesn't read "ekklesia" (church)... but people.

parousia70 said:
the rest were cut off forever (Acts 3:22-24)

Verse 23 is in future tense. You're implying that this happened already, and normal Jews don't belong to Israel as of today. I don't agree.

When you say the church is Israel in the New Covenant... you always replace Israel, because it was Israel that used to be Israel before.
Thomas
---
Hi Keras,

keras said:
forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

Jeremiah chapter 13:1-10

Jeremiah is way back in the past. I take his prophecies as being fulfilled by the destrucion of Jerusalem by Babylon.

keras said:
he Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the Land. Isaiah 41:8-10

Isaiah 41:8-10 does not mention Christians. It's a misrepresentation.

keras said:
This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again,

in ancient times or again? One prophecy - one point of
time please. If punishment is done, it's done.

keras said:
Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.

This is where it get's really aggressive.
Isaiah 49:12 "these" refers to Israelites mentioned beforehand (verse 7).
Thomas

mkgal1 · Nov 23, 2019

thomas_t said:
As concerning your other question - with regard to who is and who is not saved individually... I have no idea.

jgr said:
Scripture does.

Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

That excludes practising Jews both individually and as a group.

Because sadly, the practising Jew rejects the Lord Jesus.

It excludes anyone who refuses to place their faith in the Lord Jesus, and to obey Him.

Faith and obedience. The exclusive identifiers of the true believer.

Only and always.

thomas_t said:
That's not true, in my opinion, the passage adresses individuals - "thou". Groups, in contrast, don't have a heart this passage is speaking of.

The group that's being identified is "those who are saved". It's the shared qualification of being saved that causes them to be in a group together. Their common loyalty is to Christ Jesus as the promised Messiah.

It's like grouping people together by hair color. If you're pointing out the "red hair" group, then all those in that group would have that red hair color in common. It's a trait that's individual to them - but common to all those in the group that's identified by hair color.

mkgal1 · Nov 23, 2019

thomas_t said:
The church didn't begin until Christ was there.

Christ has ALWAYS been there - and His plan was from before the foundation of the earth. His "church" began with Adam & Eve.

Ephesians 1:4 - Even before He made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in His eyes.

keras · Nov 23, 2019

thomas_t said:
Jeremiah is way back in the past. I take his prophecies as being fulfilled by the destrucion of Jerusalem by Babylon.

But the prophesies of Jeremiah are obviously not all fulfilled.
If you think so, then you have failed to read them properly or checked the historical record.

thomas_t said:
Isaiah 41:8-10 does not mention Christians. It's a misrepresentation.

in ancient times or again? One prophecy - one point of
time please. If punishment is done, it's done.
Thomas

Isaiah 41:9 talks about a people summoned from the ends of the earth, The Lord's servants and His chosen ones. Who are they today?

Judah has been punished twice already; Babylon and Rome. But Ezekiel 21:14 tells us that the Sword of slaughter will swing against them three times.
The Jews today still reject Jesus and many prophesies tell of their virtual demise and that only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

thomas_t · Nov 24, 2019

Hi Gal,
red hair group is not a group in a sense that they have no interaction among each other. All Israel in contrast does.

mkgal1 said:
Christ has ALWAYS been there - and His plan was from before the foundation of the earth. His "church" began with Adam & Eve.

Christ was always there indeed. But he was not crucified until some 2000 years ago. That was the beginning of the church. Baptism lets people enter it, but baptism hasn't been installed until Jesus was crucified. There was no church before that day.
Ironically, you even cite Romans 10:9 "believe that God raised him from the dead". But how could people do so before Jesus died on the cross?
---
Hi Keras

keras said:
the prophesies of Jeremiah are obviously not all fulfilled.

The ones you've cited are.

keras said:
Isaiah 41:9 talks about a people summoned from the ends of the earth, The Lord's servants and His chosen ones. Who are they today?

it talks about Israelites.

keras said:
Judah has been punished twice already; Babylon and Rome.

I count three times. Babylon, Rome and Hitler. I'm not talking about punishment though. I'm saying they have been struck three times.
Regards,
Thomas

mkgal1 · Nov 24, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The group that's being identified is "those who are saved". It's the shared qualification of being saved that causes them to be in a group together. Their common loyalty is to Christ Jesus as the promised Messiah.

thomas_t said:
Hi Gal,
red hair group is not a group in a sense that they have no interaction among each other. All Israel in contrast does.

You're overlooking my point about groups having shared qualifications of individuals. We weren't discussing "interaction". That has nothing to do with the point. You'd first said (in response to how people are classified as "saved"):

ThomasT said:
That's not true, in my opinion, the passage adresses individuals - "thou". Groups, in contrast, don't have a heart this passage is speaking of.

Maybe 1 Kings 18 & 19 would be another passage worth exploring? There we can see (I can, anyway) how there's a distinction between two groups - divided by their shared characteristic of their "hearts" or loyalties. One group was prophets of Baal - and the other group was the prophets of the One True God.

An example of an outward shared individual qualification within the group of Israelite men was their circumcision. If they weren't circumcised - they were considered to have broken the covenant and were excluded and no longer part of the group (Genesis 17:14).

mkgal1 · Nov 24, 2019

thomas_t said:
did I say that current Israel pleasaes God? no.
Ironically, you even cite Ephesians 2:14. Two groups are mentioned: Israel (Eph. 2:12) AND the faithful gentiles (Eph 2:11). So these groups can't overlap. If they did they weren't two (different) groups. Very simple, isn't it?

There *were* two groups being spoken of there - but it's important to recognize (I believe) that Christ tore down the wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile. The other groups mentioned in Eph 2 were those "alive in Christ" and those who worshipped idols in Ephesus. Jews and Gentiles alike had the opportunity to be "made alive in Christ".

The passage states that Christ made the two groups one (so they more than overlap). ISTM - based on several mentions of God not wishing for anyone to be excluded from worshipping Him that desires to - that "wall" of division was based on human-formed bias.

Ephesians 2:14 - For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility.

mkgal1 · Nov 24, 2019

jgr said:
Which rules in Romans 11 apply to a group, but not to all of the individuals in that group?

jgr said:
Hi T,

So what are the scriptural characteristics that differentiate those individuals who are not "all Jews", from those individuals who are "all Jews"?

I think these questions may have been missed.

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

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Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Blessings Collector

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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