A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

Strong in Him

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Do saved people who today are taught and believe they are saved by works, understand God?

Does ANYONE understand God? Isaiah 55:8-9.
If we could understand an infinite God with our tiny, finite minds, and figure him out; how would he be God?
He would be someone we had reduced to our level.

The god they have been told to believe and they accepted is not God. Though saved by grace. They are not worshiping God. Out of misplaced desire they worship a different Jesus.

There is only one God and only one Jesus.
There is so much to know and discover about God that we'll all still be learning about him in our 90's, if we live that long. I know lots more about God now than I did as a teenager - that doesn't mean I worshipped a different God as a teenager, just that I didn't know him that well.
When you were a few months old, you began to understand that your mum was someone who would feed you and keep you warm, dry and safe. When you got a bit older, you began to understand that your mum would sometimes get angry with you if you wanted to do things that weren't safe, or disobeyed and wouldn't do as you were told. The first time it happened may have been a shock; you hadn't seen her angry before. That doesn't mean that you had two mothers, or a mother with a split personality. It was you who changed and grew in understanding; your mother was the same person and had the same desire to protect that she'd always had.

We are all saved by the same God when we believed in Jesus. Correct? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" applies to all who do so. But, not all worship the God after they are saved.
As there is only one God, that would be a bit difficult.

For example! Jewish believers in Jerusalem (who were saved) were returning to the Temple sacrifices for their sins. (Heb 6:4-6).

No they weren't. Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn't say anything at all about animal sacrifices.

Any wrong concept that denominations erect denies the ability to worship God!

Define "wrong concept".
I belong to a church which is a Methodist/URC partnership - some of our congregation, and preachers, are Methodists, some are URC members and preachers and some (most actually) belong to both. We all worship the same God, read the same Bible, have received the same Holy Spirit, and so on. There is a church in our circuit which is an Anglican/Methodist URC partnership, and another one which is a Methodist/Baptist partnership - same thing applies; we all worship the same God, pray together, have Bible studies together etc.

It must be done in Spirit and in TRUTH!

God is truth.
Truth doesn't change; our understanding of it may well change.
And I understand ore about God than I did 20 years ago - it's called growth; that doesn't mean that 20 years ago my worship was meaningless to God.
 
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NBB

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A visitor walked into a German graveyard and heard Beethoven's 5th Symphony being played backwards. He discovered a grave right in the back corner where the music was coming the loudest. Reading the tombstone, he realised that it was Beethoven decomposing!

I don't get that one.
 
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setst777

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You are missing a blessing if you think being filled is that, being filled with the Holy spirit, is actually the person of the Holy spirit entering a space in your inner being and filling that, and various things can happen after that, all good, and all believers should have this, its in line with what the bible says, that already believers were not filled until someone prayed or something happened to them, or asked...

You would not be saying that if you really read the Scriptures. I already alerted you to please read Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Ephesians 5:15-20 (NIV)
15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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NBB

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You would not be saying that if you really read the Scriptures. I already alerted you to please read Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Ephesians 5:15-20 (NIV)
15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is wrong? yes be filled with the Holy spirit is alright, biblical, and no like in the bible it does not happen when believing sometimes you have to seek it.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Sadly miracles and even the presence of the very God, because some wackos are doing strange stuff is regarded as emotions, not walking in faith, 'feelings', dangerous, and something we should not seek? i don't know.
It is quite true that there is wacky stuff going on in some areas of main-stream Charismatic movement. Dave Hunt has described it admirably in his book:
Occult Invasion: The Subtle Seduction of the World and Church (Dave Hunt Classic) Paperback – Facsimile, December 31, 2010
by Dave Hunt (Author)
After 50 years of having a Pentecostal theology and accepting a lot of the wacky stuff, that book turned my theology on its head and made me see that most if not all the wacky stuff is found nowhere in the New Testament.

All the gifts of the Spirit can be manifested for the encouragement, comfort, edification and exhortation of believers and for evangelism, without all the falling down, jerking, shaking, misuse of public tongues, Old Testament style judgmental prophecies "for the nation", riotous and out of control behaviour we see in some meetings and conferences.
 
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setst777

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What is wrong? yes be filled with the Holy spirit is alright, biblical, and no like in the bible it does not happen when believing sometimes you have to seek it.

According to the Bible, are you filled with the Spirit by seeking it, OR by diligently walking and living in the Spirit God gave you when you first repented and believed in Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
 
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NBB

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According to the Bible, are you filled with the Spirit by seeking it, OR by diligently walking and living in the Spirit God gave you when you first repented and believed in Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the Samaritans had accepted God’s word, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 Peter and John went to Samaria and prayed that the Samaritans would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (Before this the Holy Spirit had not come to any of the Samaritans. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit.

We can receive this the same as them. They already were belevers, and they were already baptized in water, Is the person of the Holy spirit filling you. And brings a better christian life, and a closer relationship with the most kindest of persons, this should be the same as pentecost, it says they were filled there too.
 
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setst777

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14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the Samaritans had accepted God’s word, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 Peter and John went to Samaria and prayed that the Samaritans would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (Before this the Holy Spirit had not come to any of the Samaritans. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit.

We can receive this the same as them. They already were believers, and they were already baptized in water, Is the person of the Holy spirit filling you. And brings a better christian life, and a closer relationship with the most kindest of persons, this should be the same as pentecost, it says they were filled there too.

The first time the Spirit was poured out on believers was at Pentecost after Jesus was glorified.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine…
37 “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!
38 He who believes in me,
as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The Spirit was poured out on them, just as prophesied. They were filled with the Spirit because they repented, and they believed in Jesus, obeying His commands.

For we only receive the Spirit by an obedient faith:

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) Bolding mine… 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Acts 2 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Except for the
  • Day of Pentecost,
  • the Gentiles,
  • the Samaritans,
  • those disciples of John (who taught and baptized by John),
everyone else in the Book of Acts was saved (receiving the Spirit) by faith without an outward sign.

Why is that?


Pentecost
The "tongues of fire" was a sign of the coming Holy Spirit only on the Day of Pentecost to show the Spirit had now been poured out on believers as prophesied.

Gentile Believers
The Jews thought this salvation was only for the Jews. God gave a special vision to Peter to show that even Gentiles were to be saved, and God proved it by giving a sign when the Gentiles believed in Jesus had the hearing of the Gospel - they praised God and spoke in Tongues - although they did not have tongues of fire above their heads as at Pentecost. The Jews conceded and marveled that God also grants Gentiles to repent and believe.

Samaratin Believers
Likewise, the Jews refused to believe the Samaratins could be saved until they saw the sign that they also received the Spirit by the Apostles laying on of hands. Notice that on the Day of Pentecost, and with the Gentile believers, laying on of hands to receive the Spirit was not a requirement to receive the Spirit. This step was taken by the Apostles to show that even Samaratins were accepted for salvation by God. For as Jesus said, "Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven."

Disciples of John only
It was not sufficient to be just a disciple of John and receive John's baptism to be saved. One had to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior - to be a disciple of Jesus. The disciples of John had not even hear of such a thing as the Spirit of God. To prove that only by faith in Jesus, and only by His baptism is one saved, God confirmed through Paul the receiving of the Spirit through a sign similar to the others.

In every other instance throughout the NT Scriptures, the teaching is that whosoever repents and believes in Jesus, vowing to be Jesus' disciple, to listen to and follow Him all receive the Holy Spirit by that faith. That is the teaching of the Scriptures throughout.

The Spirit of God is one. Everyone who repents and believes in Jesus as their Lord and Savior receive the Spirit of God - All Christians have that one same Spirit that is from God, and which Lord Jesus also had. We all share in the one Spirit.

You can't get more of the Spirit then you already have by faith. However, to be filled with the Spirit, and to have the Power and Life in the Spirit manifested in and through your life, you must be diligent to walk and live by the Spirit of God, just as Romans 6 and Romans 8 teaches.

Also see:

Romans 12:9-11 (NIV)
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:1 (NIV)
3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

Ephesians 4:30-32 (NIV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
 
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solid_core

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Granted. He obvious knew what Jesus would have said about the Temple. But he didn't know exactly when.
He knew that it will be soon, in his generation. It does not matter that he did not know the exact day.

The truth about the kingdom of God is a matter of "right now" and "not yet". The kingdom of God in Christ became a reality for Christian believers the moment the curtain of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom. That signalled the end of Judaism. The coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost confirmed it. In fact, before His death, Jesus told His disciples that the kingdom of God was within them, and He breathed the Holy Spirit into each of them to show that this is so.

And the "not yet" part of it is because the total fulfillment of the kingdom of God will happen when all is settled and we are in glory with the Lord.

This is basic theology 101 that would be taught in a new Christians class.

So, the notion that the kingdom of God was instituted when the Temple was destroyed in 70AD, seems to be a wacky doctrine to me. I've never seen any reference to it anywhere, unless it was a Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland "new revelation" that some disembodied voice spoke to them in a dream.

If you have a sound theological reference to it, I would be interested in seeing it.

In hellenistic thought, every huge shift was a process. The kingdom of God and the end of old judaistic era began with John the Baptist, with the service of Jesus Christ, it progressed with His death and resurrction and it progressed even more with the giving of the Holy Spirit and establishing the church and it was completed in 70 AD, when the temple and Jewish nation were destroyed as Jesus came in His judgement. It was the end of the old "heaven and earth".

The point is that for us its done and there is no need for tongues or prophecies to continue.
 
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NBB

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Thanks for the post... and i agree that to remain filled with the Holy spirit you need to walk accordingly but i disagree that everyone who believes is filled with the Holy spirit, you have your interpretation.
But i actually think this kind of interpretation, and saying you are filled at believing is harmful because is depriving a lot of people of receiving being filled with the Holy spirit.

You contradict a bit there? saying you can't get more of the spirit, but be filled with the Spirit and the same time.

Being filled with the Holy spirit is being filled in yourself with the Holy spirit like if you are a vessel and the Holy spirit what fills, and you need to seek to be refilled because life or sins can 'erode' that filling SEE, in the bible there were believers who were 'refilled' and this happened to already believers:

After they had prayed, their meeting place was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

See there? no new converts, they were already believers... and they were refilled again.

I agree we need to walk accordingly to the call that is all fine,
But that teaching you are writing is actually harmful for the gospel. I mean saying when you believe you can get filled at the same time, i mean it can happen but its not always like that, and people should seek this.
 
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GenemZ

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Being filled with the Holy spirit as something that can happen after converting is very biblical, you actually are the one who believes that when believing you always receive all the holy spirit you can get. That is not biblical.

If you were handed a tract while walking down the main hall on a college campus? And, while walking to class, you accepted faith in Jesus Christ?

Having no understanding of Christian doctrine, this person simply went about his business. He did not grow up in a Christian home and never attended any church.

Then, shortly after, this same person began to have intense dreams and visions of his future. In one dream he was shown a place he was to go to. That place happens ten years later, and turns out to be a Bible college. When he was given the dream? That same place was a military school for boys, not a Bible college. And, the list goes on with many other unusual insights... one showing him being a man of God with a gift to teach, but not having been a Christian, was puzzled as to what he was shown.

Would you say that person had received the Holy Spirit?
 
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KateforChrist

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Does ANYONE understand God? Isaiah 55:8-9.
If we could understand an infinite God with our tiny, finite minds, and figure him out; how would he be God?
He would be someone we had reduced to our level.

Or the opposite, us becoming God.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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He knew that it will be soon, in his generation. It does not matter that he did not know the exact day.

In hellenistic thought, every huge shift was a process. The kingdom of God and the end of old judaistic era began with John the Baptist, with the service of Jesus Christ, it progressed with His death and resurrction and it progressed even more with the giving of the Holy Spirit and establishing the church and it was completed in 70 AD, when the temple and Jewish nation were destroyed as Jesus came in His judgement. It was the end of the old "heaven and earth".

The point is that for us its done and there is no need for tongues or prophecies to continue.

There were the same guys in the Thessalonian church who taught the same as you do - that Jesus has returned already. Read what Paul says about them.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I don't get that one.
Hahahaha! If English is your second language, I can understand that. Look up "decomposing" in the English dictionary. Then look up "composing" to do with writing music. Then use your logical thinking to work out what the joke means by either "decomposing" or "de-composing".

A good joke goes down in flames like the German zeppelin Hindenberg when one has to explain it! :)
 
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GenemZ

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Does ANYONE understand God? Isaiah 55:8-9.
If we could understand an infinite God with our tiny, finite minds, and figure him out; how would he be God?
He would be someone we had reduced to our level.
If there were no Bible? How much would any of us know about God?

Isaiah 55:8-9 was written to Jews who did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They could not know what a Spirit filled believer having a richness of sound doctrine can not know. We now can know His ways intended for His people. Before? Without the indwelling Holy Spirit? Men needed to be placed under Law, not grace.. to keep them from where they should not go in this world.

On the other hand? We are a new creation in Jesus Christ. We can know the thoughts and ways of God (potentially)...

God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit...

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature,
but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that
has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they
had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However,
as it is written:


“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love him—


10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

11
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God
except the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:6-11

Some need to catch up? We are not like Jews that were alive when Isaiah was prophesying. We have become a new spiritual species in Christ!

We have an advantage.. A great one! We now can know the mind (thinking) of Christ. His ways? They are to become our ways! His thoughts are to become our thoughts!


So be it.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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That's what Lucifer sold to the angels that followed him in his rebellion.
True. So that shows where these three "men of God" are in the spectrum.
 
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