A self proclaimed "Saved Calvinist" commits murder in the morning...

Bible Highlighter said:

I have no problem understanding that forgiveness and salvation goes hand in hand. It is taught in the Bible. The majority of others somehow have no problem rejecting this truth expressed in Scripture, though.

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But that is not an answer to your own question. Your question was a mindset question.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, why would David bother to confess of his sins if he knew he was saved?

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I would start with Psalm 51 to start exploring the "why" in your own question. It sure does make a lot of what you post understandable now and I'm glad for that as it will lead to more productive dialogue.

redleghunter said:

First I said if we are going to presume David "lost his salvation" we should ask that question within the context of God's relationship with David. God made an everlasting covenant with David which we now know is fulfilled through Jesus Christ. God made no such covenant with Saul.

When we look at the covenant God made with David we see even after his death God use this covenant as an example of something that would come to pass and never be broken. Noticeably, in this passage God is declaring the new covenant He will have with His people:

Jeremiah 33: NASB

14‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 15‘In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth. 16‘In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD is our righteousness.’ 17“For thus says the LORD, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’”

19The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20“Thus says the LORD, ‘If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time, 21then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. 22‘As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’”

23And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24“Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the LORD chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. 25“Thus says the LORD, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, 26then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’”

Now in dealing with the hypothetical "David lost his salvation when he sinned" we know for a fact God sent his prophet Nathan to confront David and David repented. David and Bathsheba suffered temporal consequences (chastisement) for their sins, but the covenant with David was not broken (see verses 17-18; 20-21 and 25-26 above). What's relevant to this passage from Jeremiah 33? It involves God's promise with Israel and Judah for a new covenant He would make with them. We who are in the New Covenant in Christ's own precious Blood have these promises from God as well. Meaning, if we are in Christ, God is faithful and true to us as He was with David.

Now another valid question on your hypothetical of "David lost his salvation" is what did David think about his covenant aka salvation when he sinned? We have this answer from his prayer to God in Psalm 51. It seems David did not think he lost his salvation but asked for the joy of his salvation be restored. He also cried out for God not to take the Holy Spirit from him. Which means the Holy Spirit did not depart him.

Psalm 51: NASB

For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

1Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.

3For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.

4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

6Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.

9Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

15O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

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David is asking to be cleansed of sin. You cannot be cleansed of sin if you are saved and forgiven of sin. It is a contradiction. "Joy of salvation" is no different than having salvation. If one has salvation they have joy. Jesus says, "repent or perish" (See: Luke 13:3). "Repentance" is seeking forgiveness with the Lord.

The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

Bible Highlighter said:

David is asking to be cleansed of sin. You cannot be cleansed of sin if you are saved and forgiven of sin. It is a contradiction.

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No it is not a contradiction.

Our eternal status as saved and forgiven stands, but we sin daily having not yet been perfected. So the cleansing David asks for will restore his communion with the Father and that is what he longs for. The heart agonises when we drift away from Him.

If you don't experience the agony of drifting away from His best, then make this a prayer priority.

Carl Emerson said:

No it is not a contradiction.

Our eternal status as saved and forgiven stands, but we sin daily having not yet been perfected. So the cleansing David asks for will restore his communion with the Father and that is what he longs for. The heart agonises when we drift away from Him.

If you don't experience the agony of drifting away from His best, then make this a prayer priority.

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Well, you are not quoting any actual Scripture verse to support the idea that one can sin and still be saved. Also, David did not say that he was saved while he was seeking forgiveness in Psalms 51. Furthermore, there are many verses in Scripture that warn against how sin can condemn our souls (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 22:14-15). Believers do not have diplomatic immunity.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, you are not quoting any actual Scripture verse to support the idea that one can sin and still be saved. Also, David did not say that he was saved while he was seeking forgiveness in Psalms 51. Furthermore, there are many verses in Scripture that warn against how sin can condemn our souls (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 22:14-15). Believers do not have diplomatic immunity.

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Jesus was perfect - Jesus did not sin.

We have His imputed righteousness but we are not perfect so we still sin.

1 Jn 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Anyone with some revelation about the Holiness and perfection of Christ would consider it absurd to claim that we have His perfection - this is the height of arrogance.

Bible Highlighter said:

David is asking to be cleansed of sin. You cannot be cleansed of sin if you are saved and forgiven of sin. It is a contradiction. "Joy of salvation" is no different than having salvation. If one has salvation they have joy. Jesus says, "repent or perish" (See: Luke 13:3). "Repentance" is seeking forgiveness with the Lord.

The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

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Again it’s your hypothetical and now you have revealed the “sunk” mindset.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, you are not quoting any actual Scripture verse to support the idea that one can sin and still be saved. Also, David did not say that he was saved while he was seeking forgiveness in Psalms 51. Furthermore, there are many verses in Scripture that warn against how sin can condemn our souls (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 22:14-15). Believers do not have diplomatic immunity.

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I already pointed out David in Psalm 51 (which is keeping on topic) asks God to restore the joy of salvation. He does not say re-establish salvation.

redleghunter said:

I already pointed out David in Psalm 51 (which is keeping on topic) asks God to restore the joy of salvation. He does not say re-establish salvation.

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It doesn’t have to. The Bible practically hits a person over the head repeatedly to make it obvious that sin can destroy any person’s soul (regardless if they are a believer or not). In fact, at the Judgment: Those believers who offend (cause others to sin), and who work iniquity will be gathered out of Christ’s kingdom by his angels and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:41-42).

Also, the Bible does teach that a believer can lose salvation and then re-establish salvation again (Read again Luke 15:11-32 and pay extra special attention to verses 24 and 32; And see James 5:19-20).

Bible Highlighter said:

It doesn’t have to. The Bible practically hits a person over the head repeatedly to make it obvious that sin can destroy any person’s soul (regardless if they are a believer or not). In fact, at the Judgment: Those believers who offend (cause others to sin), and who work iniquity will be gathered out of Christ’s kingdom by his angels and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:41-42).

Also, the Bible does teach that a believer can lose salvation and then re-establish salvation again (Read again Luke 15:11-32 and pay extra special attention to verses 24 and 32; And see James 5:19-20).

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Are you suggesting one can be born again twice?

Carl Emerson said:

Are you suggesting one can be born again twice?

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While a person cannot be born again twice, they can die, and come back to life again. People's heart beats have stopped for very long periods of time, and then they come back to life again. A recent Christian movie (based on a true story) called "Breakthrough" expresses this truth.


You can rent it through Amazon Prime:
https://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Roxann-Dawson/dp/B07QMG21JX/

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son:
When the son came home back to the father, and he sought forgiveness with him, the father said that his son was "dead" and he is now "alive again." (Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). He was said to be "lost" and now he is "found." When Christians speak of "the lost," they are talking about the unsaved. The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. When the son was living a prodigal life involving prostitutes, he was was "dead spiritually," and when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father, he became "alive again" spiritually. We see this in other places in Scripture. James 5:19-20 talks about how a faithful brother can bring back another believer who has strayed away from the truth by backsliding into a life of sin, and when they convert them back to following Jesus again, they should know that they have helped to save their soul from spiritual death, and they helped them to be forgiven by the Lord. Also, in Jude, there are those who are twice dead and plucked up by their roots (Jude 1:12). This means that they were dead spiritually before they came to Christ, and they died again spiritually again by going back into some form of sin again. The being plucked up by the roots means they did not let the foundational teachings of God's Word to remain in their heart. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:13).

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, the Bible does teach that a believer can lose salvation and then re-establish salvation again (Read again Luke 15:11-32 and pay extra special attention to verses 24 and 32; And see James 5:19-20).

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Read Hebrews 6:4-6 as we cannot lose our salvation and get it back. That would be crucifying Christ again.

Once again this poses a problem for your theology.

The only logical outcome for the “lose salvation” theology is we get one chance and if we blow it, there’s no going back.

redleghunter said:

Read Hebrews 6:4-6 as we cannot lose our salvation and get it back. That would be crucifying Christ again.

Once again this poses a problem for your theology.

The only logical outcome for the “lose salvation” theology is we get one chance and if we blow it, there’s no going back.

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Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy or the rejection of Christ (Which is unforgivable). This does not contradict backsliding into sin with a loss of salvation (if one does not deny Christ) because the prodigal son died and was made alive again.

Bible Highlighter said:

Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy or the rejection of Christ (Which is unforgivable). This does not contradict backsliding into sin with a loss of salvation (if one does not deny Christ) because the prodigal son died and was made alive again.

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Define backsliding as equivalent with loss of salvation. Only Hebrews 6 gives language close enough to your definition of loss of salvation.

You also have not addressed the statement you made earlier:

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, why would David bother to confess of his sins if he knew he was saved?

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Would you like to answer your own question?

Bible Highlighter said:

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

In other words, there are so many red flags in the Bible that says that we can potentially fall away from the faith, it would make one think that they were in a Russian airport. But of course, people see what they want to see.

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Hello BH,
I would first like to commend you for offering several fine scriptures to give support to your current understanding.
I can see what you are thinking and can follow why you think these verses suggest that.
There are several reasons I cannot follow you in the direction you are going. I will give you some reasons why...

you said;

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

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The bible does not declare any of these professing believers, had salvation. If they did not have it, how could they forfeit it?
People turn from the truth in real-time as we are told this;
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Then you have the warning passages which are given to the sheep as a means of grace and perseverance.

1689 LBC: Chapter 17: "Of The Perseverance of the Saints"

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

S.ilvio said:

A self proclaimed "Saved Calvinist" commits murder in the morning...He remains unrepentant until Judgement Day. Is Salvation guaranteed for him..?

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Hello S.ilvio, people can "claim" anything they want to claim, but claiming something doesn't necessarily make it true. As singer Keith Green used to say, going to church and claiming that you're a Christian doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's and claiming that you're a hamburger makes you a hamburger.

One of the principal marks of a ~true~ believer is that they do NOT remain unrepentant of their sins, certainly not at the end of their lives anyway, because the Lord sees that we don't/preserves all of us who are His in the faith and sees us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25.

The Lord tells us that no one can come to Him and be saved unless he/she is first drawn by His Father. He also told us that, of all of us who are drawn and given to Him by His Father, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day .. John 6:37-40, 44, 65, cf 10:27-28.

So that's what the Bible teaches us, and here's what Calvinism teaches concerning perseverance and the Christian life (in short):

So your OP title speaks of someone who is 1. a SELF-PROCLAIMED Christian and 2. a SELF-PROCLAIMED Calvinist when .. in reality .. he is neither (a principal piece of the proof of which is found in the fact that he remained unrepentant of his sins until he died).

--David

Bible Highlighter said:

they can die, and come back to life again. People's heart beats have stopped for very long periods of time, and then they come back to life again.

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You respond to my question about spiritual death and the need to be born again by referring to physical death.

This is a false equivalency.

Hebrews is clear that to be born again twice (if it were possible) would be to render the first atonement of His blood void. This is blasphemous.

Your theology then cannot offer hope for those who slip away from Him and become spiritually dead.

You suggest that the prodigal son was in this condition of spiritual death but forget that he never lost his sonship.

I have walked a similar road and noticed that folks with your theology could offer me no hope.

My return to the fold was by means of Him drawing me back and His direct confrontation.

We can play the 'verses game' but at the end of the day He moves in ways beyond our understanding and theology, and will go out after the one and leave the 99.
Repentance (which is a gift) follows divine encounter - Love is the real reason any of us are saved - it is not about ticking boxes.

While I was in rebellion I was missing the blessings of the Kingdom but never lost my Sonship.