Hearing Mass

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

I just came from the Christian Advice forum. A person there gave a complaint I don't get. It basically boils down to the fact that she got more out of reading her Bible than going to Mass and that she will never go to Mass again. The Mass IS the Bible. I mean, granted, we sing it, chant it and read it. We don't expound on it much. Our homilies are short. Something I appreciate. Since the focal point of the Liturgy of the Word should be the actual Word and not an hr+ long sermon on what it all means and how to apply it to our life. I'm not trying to be critical of this person. Obviously she wasn't getting what she needed and so I'm very glad and grateful to God that she is now. I just found the comment super strange. A Lutheran Pastor friend once told me, that the reason the Liturgy is so important --The reason we don't change, is because even if the guy in the pulpit is a heretic spouting the worse, God's people still hear God's Word.

“Paisios” · Nov 22, 2019

Beloved2018 said:
A Lutheran Pastor friend once told me, that the reason the Liturgy is so important --The reason we don't change, is because even if the guy in the pulpit is a heretic spouting the worse, God's people still hear God's Word.

*Asking in fellowship and for my clarification and not wanting to derail the main discussion*

Isn’t the focus of the Mass, and its importance, related to the real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine, and thus, the reading of Scripture, while important, is secondary to that? The Eucharist central, the Liturgy of the Word secondary?

Gnarwhal · Nov 22, 2019

Beloved2018 said:
I just came from the Christian Advice forum. A person there gave a complaint I don't get. It basically boils down to the fact that she got more out of reading her Bible than going to Mass and that she will never go to Mass again. The Mass IS the Bible. I mean, granted, we sing it, chant it and read it. We don't expound on it much. Our homilies are short. Something I appreciate. Since the focal point of the Liturgy of the Word should be the actual Word and not an hr+ long sermon on what it all means and how to apply it to our life. I'm not trying to be critical of this person. Obviously she wasn't getting what she needed and so I'm very glad and grateful to God that she is now. I just found the comment super strange. A Lutheran Pastor friend once told me, that the reason the Liturgy is so important --The reason we don't change, is because even if the guy in the pulpit is a heretic spouting the worse, God's people still hear God's Word.

If I've learned anything after being born and raised an evangelical protestant, and now living as a confirmed Catholic for a couple years, it's that there's no legitimately good reason to leave the Church, and whatever the protestants think they have against the Church is unfounded, without reason, illogical, and ignorant.

You're right, the Mass exudes Sacred Scripture. I adamantly contend that we Catholics hold it in higher regard than even the most fundamental of Baptists. We don't cherry pick to prove a weak point and we don't wield it like a cudgel. The Church shows us how the entire canon is woven together in the tapestry of salvation history.

One of the things I've really enjoyed about the interaction with Scripture in the Catholic Church is that the passages that are read in Mass or in studies or in any other context are almost always much longer than the excerpts I would see in protestant/evangelical sermons. I'm convinced that's because the Church has the authority and truth of Scripture on her side, and so there's no "risk" of the Scriptures shooting holes in the theology that's taught. Whereas with every protestant pastor I had heard up until I converted has to keep their scripture references short and concise because if they keep going the passage is going to contradict them.

“Paisios” said:
*Asking in fellowship and for my clarification and not wanting to derail the main discussion*

Isn’t the focus of the Mass, and its importance, related to the real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine, and thus, the reading of Scripture, while important, is secondary to that? The Eucharist central, the Liturgy of the Word secondary?

Yes the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and the culmination of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I imagine @Beloved2018's point (or at least mine is anyway) that even at that, Sacred Scripture permeates the Mass. Not just the readings but the prayers, the responses, etc. The Mass is so scriptural.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Nov 22, 2019

“Paisios” said:
*Asking in fellowship and for my clarification and not wanting to derail the main discussion*

Isn’t the focus of the Mass, and its importance, related to the real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine, and thus, the reading of Scripture, while important, is secondary to that? The Eucharist central, the Liturgy of the Word secondary?

Yes, that's correct.

“Paisios” · Nov 22, 2019

Stabat said:
Yes, that's correct.

Thank you. Just wanted to clarify.

AvilaSurfer · Nov 22, 2019

I hear this about mass, and other things. People refer to what they “get out of it.” So one person “got more” out of reading her bible, or another quit going to the Adoration chapel because they weren’t “getting anything” out of it.
I SMH. That’s just not the point of either thing. We’re not there to get something out of it. We’re there to give. Give praise, adoration, love to God. Unfortunately lots of people have it backwards.

“Paisios” · Nov 22, 2019

Fenwick said:
If I've learned anything after being born and raised an evangelical protestant, and now living as a confirmed Catholic for a couple years, it's that there's no legitimately good reason to leave the Church, and whatever the protestants think they have against the Church is unfounded, without reason, illogical, and ignorant.

You're right, the Mass exudes Sacred Scripture. I adamantly contend that we Catholics hold it in higher regard than even the most fundamental of Baptists. We don't cherry pick to prove a weak point and we don't wield it like a cudgel. The Church shows us how the entire canon is woven together in the tapestry of salvation history.

One of the things I've really enjoyed about the interaction with Scripture in the Catholic Church is that the passages that are read in Mass or in studies or in any other context are almost always much longer than the excerpts I would see in protestant/evangelical sermons. I'm convinced that's because the Church has the authority and truth of Scripture on her side, and so there's no "risk" of the Scriptures shooting holes in the theology that's taught. Whereas with every protestant pastor I had heard up until I converted has to keep their scripture references short and concise because if they keep going the passage is going to contradict them.

Yes the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and the culmination of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I imagine @Beloved2018's point (or at least mine is anyway) that even at that, Sacred Scripture permeates the Mass. Not just the readings but the prayers, the responses, etc. The Mass is so scriptural.

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification, and agree that (as far as I have seen) that “Sacred Scripture permeates the Mass”.

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

The Eucharist is the summit-yes. But the Eucharistic Liturgy is Scripture too. The whole Liturgical act, is Biblical. There's not a whole lot of room for innovation in Lutheranism, except in the pulpit, if one follows the Divine Liturgy (their term for Mass). That was the point my friend was getting at. He wasn't limiting it to just the L.of W. I apologize for my clumsiness.

“Paisios” said:
*Asking in fellowship and for my clarification and not wanting to derail the main discussion*

Isn’t the focus of the Mass, and its importance, related to the real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine, and thus, the reading of Scripture, while important, is secondary to that? The Eucharist central, the Liturgy of the Word secondary?

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

I disagree. It's a synergy. We're there to receive grace. The problem arises I think when people confuse grace with a certain kind of feeling they expect to have.

AvilaSurfer said:
I hear this about mass, and other things. People refer to what they “get out of it.” So one person “got more” out of reading her bible, or another quit going to the Adoration chapel because they weren’t “getting anything” out of it.
I SMH. That’s just not the point of either thing. We’re not there to get something out of it. We’re there to give. Give praise, adoration, love to God. Unfortunately lots of people have it backwards.

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

Yes. Thank you Fenwick. I didn't do a very good job. And I agree!

Fenwick said:
If I've learned anything after being born and raised an evangelical protestant, and now living as a confirmed Catholic for a couple years, it's that there's no legitimately good reason to leave the Church, and whatever the protestants think they have against the Church is unfounded, without reason, illogical, and ignorant.

You're right, the Mass exudes Sacred Scripture. I adamantly contend that we Catholics hold it in higher regard than even the most fundamental of Baptists. We don't cherry pick to prove a weak point and we don't wield it like a cudgel. The Church shows us how the entire canon is woven together in the tapestry of salvation history.

One of the things I've really enjoyed about the interaction with Scripture in the Catholic Church is that the passages that are read in Mass or in studies or in any other context are almost always much longer than the excerpts I would see in protestant/evangelical sermons. I'm convinced that's because the Church has the authority and truth of Scripture on her side, and so there's no "risk" of the Scriptures shooting holes in the theology that's taught. Whereas with every protestant pastor I had heard up until I converted has to keep their scripture references short and concise because if they keep going the passage is going to contradict them.

Yes the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and the culmination of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I imagine @Beloved2018's point (or at least mine is anyway) that even at that, Sacred Scripture permeates the Mass. Not just the readings but the prayers, the responses, etc. The Mass is so scriptural.

AvilaSurfer · Nov 22, 2019

We are there to adore Christ. Period. If you don’t think you get anything out of mass or adoration, that’s a you problem, not a Church problem, not a parish or priest or music or fellowship problem. You.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Nov 22, 2019

AvilaSurfer said:
I hear this about mass, and other things. People refer to what they “get out of it.” So one person “got more” out of reading her bible, or another quit going to the Adoration chapel because they weren’t “getting anything” out of it.
I SMH. That’s just not the point of either thing. We’re not there to get something out of it. We’re there to give. Give praise, adoration, love to God. Unfortunately lots of people have it backwards.

I believe it should be a combination of the two. Prior to the reformation we typically prayed and adored Christ, by standing and walking around in the church during mass.
People could pray the rosary and kneel down at the sidealtars while the priest said mass rather quietly.

This shift to sitting in benches, like in class came later, probably around the 17th and 18th century. This was clearly inspired by the protestant fashion of the time.

I believe this lecturing style made peoples less focused on prayer and Christ. This made them passive where they'd been active in the past.
Boredom comes with passivity.

This has to be read into the counter-reformatory spirit of the Council of Trent. This wasnt all bad, of course not, but what the people experienced at mass changed dramatically.

This affects us today aswell. I'm sure a more active mass and Sunday worship would stimulate more affection amongst the laity. Perhaps we could go back to the older form of the mass (not just latin, but also participating standing and praying as we did and regain some more enthusiasm.

I dont know and I certainly dont have the answers, but this radical change could be seen as a factor for our sense of boredom. I'm sure everyone has felt boredom at mass once in awhile.

I feel that the lack of prayers by laity in the mass makes it more of a "just come and receive the host" kind of thing than a spiritual meeting with God and the saints.

Others may fancy sitting down Iike a class like we do so I'm sure it's not a one sided picture.

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Next time I fall asleep or laugh at a Novus Ordo, I'll come running back here and tell you all about it.

AvilaSurfer said:
We are there to adore Christ. Period. If you don’t think you get anything out of mass or adoration, that’s a you problem, not a Church problem, not a parish or priest or music or fellowship problem. You.

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

I agree. Maybe after the storm has passed, we could return to an even older pre-Trentine form. The Pastor friend I spoke of earlier said that in the early days of Lutheranism, Mass began Saturday afternoon! Wow! Just wow! I would love that. I wonder if Catholicism was like that. I'm developing an interest in the Liturgy and prayer life of the Medieval period. I've only just scratched the surface. But boy, our ancestors make us look like heathens.

Stabat said:
I believe it should be a combination of the two. Prior to the reformation we typically prayed and adored Christ, by standing and walking around in the church during mass.
People could pray the rosary and kneel down at the sidealtars while the priest said mass rather quietly.

This shift to sitting in benches, like in class came later, probably around the 17th and 18th century. This was clearly inspired by the protestant fashion of the time.

I believe this lecturing style made peoples less focused on prayer and Christ. This made them passive where they'd been active in the past.
Boredom comes with passivity.

This has to be read into the counter-reformatory spirit of the Council of Trent. This wasnt all bad, of course not, but what the people experienced at mass changed dramatically.

This affects us today aswell. I'm sure a more active mass and Sunday worship would stimulate more affection amongst the laity. Perhaps we could go back to the older form of the mass (not just latin, but also participating standing and praying as we did and regain some more enthusiasm.

I dont know and I certainly dont have the answers, but this radical change could be seen as a factor for our sense of boredom. I'm sure everyone has felt boredom at mass once in awhile.

I feel that the lack of prayers by laity in the mass makes it more of a "just come and receive the host" kind of thing than a spiritual meeting with God and the saints.

Others may fancy sitting down Iike a class like we do so I'm sure it's not a one sided picture.

St Sebastian · Nov 22, 2019

There is no Eucharist without the Word, and the Word is very present in the Eucharist.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Nov 22, 2019

Beloved2018 said:
I agree. Maybe after the storm has passed, we could return to an even older pre-Trentine form. The Pastor friend I spoke of earlier said that in the early days of Lutheranism, Mass began Saturday afternoon! Wow! Just wow! I would love that. I wonder if Catholicism was like that. I'm developing an interest in the Liturgy and prayer life of the Medieval period. I've only just scratched the surface. But boy, our ancestors make us look like heathens.

This is essentially the core definition of REform. It's only by looking at what functioned well in the past that we can change the church in a positive direction today and tomorrow.

The way that Vatican ii and as of lately, Francis tries to go about reform makes only more chaos. It's a redefinition of what the church is and outh to be. This will just lead us further away from a functioning church.
The answers lay in the past, but to sort out the good and the bad parts of the past is a difficult process.

I believe a cardinal like Sarah would be a perfect man for this job. He has a great sense for liturgy and has more than a few times hinted about the greatness of the older liturgies.

I like Trent, and most of the people who knows me are quite aware of that. That being said our aim for reform shouldn't stop at Trent.

There was a church before Vatican ii and there was a church predating Trent. Why limit ourselves by either one of them?

St Sebastian · Nov 22, 2019

Stabat said:
There was a church before Vatican ii and there was a church predating Trent. Why limit ourselves by either one of them?

This, this, this.

Beloved2018 · Nov 22, 2019

12th century here we come!
Just kidding...
Sort of....
:holy:

St Sebastian said:
This, this, this.

pdudgeon · Nov 22, 2019

“Paisios” said:
*Asking in fellowship and for my clarification and not wanting to derail the main discussion*

Isn’t the focus of the Mass, and its importance, related to the real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine, and thus, the reading of Scripture, while important, is secondary to that? The Eucharist central, the Liturgy of the Word secondary?

I agree absolutely! For myself, I love the Eucharist and singing the Keryie and the Gloria.....it just wouldn't be mass without them!

pdudgeon · Nov 22, 2019

Yep, I'll admit it...when it comes to the Eucharist, I am a total sap, and I can barely get through the Stations of the Cross during Holy Week.

Hearing Mass

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