A self proclaimed "Saved Calvinist" commits murder in the morning...

S.ilvio said:

Can the Elect, sin in your view?

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The Bible proves this to be true. The Bible also proves to be true in showing the elect being convicted of their sin and repenting.

S.ilvio said:

Do you believe Salvation is for all who accept Christ or just a select few pre destined Reformed Baptists..?

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I have to go with what the Bible says. The Scriptures say God elects according to His will and purpose.

S.ilvio said:

He remains unrepentant until Judgement Day. Is Salvation guaranteed for him..?

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Only God knows for sure but it's pretty obvious the fellow didn't persevere. And this serves to highlight the fact that none of us know whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not- who, exactly, are numbered among the elect. That's God's province alone- to know with 100% certainty.

King David murdered and committed adultery. But was he saved while he was doing so? No. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Some folks say that you need to practice sin (living in sin all the time) in order to be condemned of that sin according to 1 John 3. But is this interpretation correct? No.


King David was only restored back to salvation via by his confession in Psalms 51.

Most believers oddly hold to the view that a saved believer will always endure or continue in the faith, etc.; But why are we told the following if such is the case?

For we are told:



For we are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

It doesn't make any sense to tell us to do these above things if things are just automatic as a part of being saved.

Anyways, I hope this helps somebody today, and may you all be well in the Lord.

Bible Highlighter said:

King David murdered and committed adultery. But was he saved while he was doing so? No. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Some folks say that you need to practice sin (living in sin all the time) in order to be condemned of that sin according to 1 John 3. But is this interpretation correct? No.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).​

King David was only restored back to salvation via by his confession in Psalms 51.

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I think the valid question is if David was still in covenant with God when David sinned.

God made a direct covenant with David. When we see how God chastises David it is according to the covenant He made with David. We can conclude God did not cancel the covenant with David as God sent Nathan to David to confront him with his sin. David immediately repented and then suffered the temporal consequences of his sins.

God never made such a covenant with Saul as He did with David. Therefore when Saul disobeyed he lost the throne. When David sinned God forgave David.

redleghunter said:

I think the valid question is if David was still in covenant with God when David sinned.

God made a direct covenant with David. When we see how God chastises David it is according to the covenant He made with David. We can conclude God did not cancel the covenant with David as God sent Nathan to David to confront him with his sin. David immediately repented and then suffered the temporal consequences of his sins.

God never made such a covenant with Saul as He did with David. Therefore when Saul disobeyed he lost the throne. When David sinned God forgave David.

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So God elected David based on no conditions? David was just lucky? Saul was just unlucky? Okay. You can believe that. But it would be like a dog owner who kicks a dog across the room for pooping on the carpet knowing that the poor animal has uncontrollable pooping problem. I cannot imagine God is like that, though.

Also, why would David bother to confess of his sins if he knew he was saved?
Reading Psalms 51 is suggestive that he needed to be forgiven of his sins.
One cannot be unforgiven saved person. That is a contradiction in terms. The Bible teaches repeatedly that salvation and forgiveness goes hand in hand.

Bible Highlighter said:

So God elected David based on no conditions? David was just lucky? Saul was just unlucky? Okay. You can believe that. But it would be like a dog owner who kicks a dog across the room for pooping on the carpet knowing that the poor animal has uncontrollable pooping problem. I cannot imagine God is like that, though.

Also, why would David bother to confess of his sins if he knew he was saved?
Reading Psalms 51 is suggestive that he needed to be forgiven of his sins.
One cannot be unforgiven saved person. That is a contradiction in terms. The Bible teaches repeatedly that salvation and forgiveness goes hand in hand.

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First I said if we are going to presume David "lost his salvation" we should ask that question within the context of God's relationship with David. God made an everlasting covenant with David which we now know is fulfilled through Jesus Christ. God made no such covenant with Saul.

When we look at the covenant God made with David we see even after his death God use this covenant as an example of something that would come to pass and never be broken. Noticeably, in this passage God is declaring the new covenant He will have with His people:

Jeremiah 33: NASB

14‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 15‘In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth. 16‘In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD is our righteousness.’ 17“For thus says the LORD, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’”

19The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20“Thus says the LORD, ‘If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time, 21then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. 22‘As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’”

23And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24“Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the LORD chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. 25“Thus says the LORD, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, 26then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’”

Now in dealing with the hypothetical "David lost his salvation when he sinned" we know for a fact God sent his prophet Nathan to confront David and David repented. David and Bathsheba suffered temporal consequences (chastisement) for their sins, but the covenant with David was not broken (see verses 17-18; 20-21 and 25-26 above). What's relevant to this passage from Jeremiah 33? It involves God's promise with Israel and Judah for a new covenant He would make with them. We who are in the New Covenant in Christ's own precious Blood have these promises from God as well. Meaning, if we are in Christ, God is faithful and true to us as He was with David.

Now another valid question on your hypothetical of "David lost his salvation" is what did David think about his covenant aka salvation when he sinned? We have this answer from his prayer to God in Psalm 51. It seems David did not think he lost his salvation but asked for the joy of his salvation be restored. He also cried out for God not to take the Holy Spirit from him. Which means the Holy Spirit did not depart him.

Psalm 51: NASB

For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

1Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.

3For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.

4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

6Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

7Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.

9Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.

15O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, why would David bother to confess of his sins if he knew he was saved?

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Therein lies the major issue with just about everything you post. I believe you must grapple with this question personally before demanding an answer from others.

Anyone who suggests God's salvation can somehow be lost does not understand God has saved His sheep as the central part of the Covenant of Redemption.

redleghunter said:

Therein lies the major issue with just about everything you post. I believe you must grapple with this question personally before demanding an answer from others.

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I have no problem understanding that forgiveness and salvation goes hand in hand. It is taught in the Bible. The majority of others somehow have no problem rejecting this truth expressed in Scripture, though.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Anyone who suggests God's salvation can somehow be lost does not understand God has saved His sheep as the central part of the Covenant of Redemption.

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Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

In other words, there are so many red flags in the Bible that says that we can potentially fall away from the faith, it would make one think that they were in a Russian airport. But of course, people see what they want to see.