Abp. Vigano: Pope is subjecting Church to 'powerful forces' that want world government

eastcoast_bsc said:

What kills me is watching Chinese democracy protesters being hauled off to God knows where by the Chinese troops and knowing that the Pope sold out the Chinese Catholic church to these same brutal dictators.

The Pope would have to be completely naive or something worse.

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His special envoy to China was ... wait for it ... then cardinal and now mister Theodore McCarrick. That guy screwed up everything he ever touched, going way back to the beginning of his career.

chevyontheriver said:

His special envoy to China was ... wait for it ... then cardinal and now mister Theodore McCarrick. That guy screwed up everything he ever touched, going way back to the beginning of his career.

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If it could've been avoided, I'm sure McCarrick would still be Cardinal. He was useful for ungodly purposes such as the one you mentioned. Besides, his excellency archbishop Vigano warned Francis about him, only to see uncle Ted getting promoted by Francis.

"By their fruits you shall know them..."

I'm still dumb-struck at JP2 kissing a Koran. This really is only the summit of something that's been boiling for a long time. I guess the question is, what's going to come of it all.
If everything proceeds down it's present path, the Church is dead and was really never the Church to begin with. I refuse to believe this. Too many confessors and martyrs have died. Rome has fought back too many heresies and had, prior to the Reformation, single-handedly brought Christ and civilization to the West. It just can't end like this. But with Islam and secularism at our door, with a capitulating Pope who is helping both along, we need a miracle. One that will save the papacy, our Church and society.

Stabat said:

Besides this whole mess started way before pope Francis. It started at Vatican ii. If you read through Nostra aetate carefully you'll see what I mean.
Then we (those living then) saw the top of a massive iceberg. Now we're starting to see the rest of it. In this parallel I suppose our ship (the church as we know it) could be compared to Titanic, if so we will sink...

Lol, It reminds me of how a convert (now a Eastern orthodox) compared his conversion to Catholicism (2011) to entering Titanic ten minutes after it hit the iceberg. For some morbid reason its humourous, but I admit that his parallel has something to it.

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Michie said:

This is what the Muslims are enduring at the moment. Why in the world would anyone sign a fake agreement with all these human abuses that China is pretty much famous for?

‘Absolutely No Mercy’: Leaked Files Expose How China Organized Mass Detentions of Muslims

New York Times blockbuster uses leaked files to expose new horrors in China's war on Islam — GetReligion

I've posted repeatedly on what Christians and Catholic Christians have been endlessly enduring. They go after anyone that does not fit in with what the State says is acceptable. Lord have mercy.

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Be glad that eyes have finally been opened and are beginning to see (if not openly acknowledge) what has been taking place right in front of them.

Many people have been affected by this, and in some corners these things are still happening.
Some who have been victimized have survived, and others have been martyred. The lists of their names are still on display.

But justice is coming. Truth will be recognized, and even healing and perhaps a future restoration are possible.
and for those who hang in there, they will see these things and rejoice.

Stabat said:

Besides this whole mess started way before pope Francis. It started at Vatican ii. If you read through Nostra aetate carefully you'll see what I mean.

Then we (those living then) saw the top of a massive iceberg. Now we're starting to see the rest of it. In this parallel I suppose our ship (the church as we know it) could be compared to Titanic, if so we will sink...

Lol, It reminds me of how a convert (now a Eastern orthodox) compared his conversion to Catholicism (2011) to entering Titanic ten minutes after it hit the iceberg. For some morbid reason its humourous, but I admit that his parallel has something to it.

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Not the Titanic, which was designed and built by men.
Choose The Ark instead.

I guess some of us have a nagging doubt in the back of our minds, is this Church, headed by Koran-kissing, idol-endorsing, etc, ect, bunch of guys is the Ark? I know I do. Ever since I converted, it's been one headache after another, beginning with my conversion! That in itself was a nightmare!

pdudgeon said:

Not the Titanic, which was designed and built by men.
Choose The Ark instead.

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pdudgeon said:

Not the Titanic, which was designed and built by men.
Choose The Ark instead.

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The comparison was made on purpose. As Beloved wrote, some of us really questions the origin of our church as it stands. Besides, the east never fully went along with the papacy as an institution.

Already at the council of Trullo they seemed to oppose the papacy as we defined it. It wasnt harmony between the theology of the east and the eest.
This whole east/west friction started already at the council in Constantinople in 553 AD.

The fact that St. Peter was given authority over the other apostles in matters of faith and moral doesnt automatically means that such authority's handed down through succession. Christ never said that to Peter in the gospels.
The idea first seemed to emerge with Ireneus in the second century, but without to much support of the church to begin with.

This isnt as easy as some people wants it to be, just saying.

At Nicea it's worth noticing how only three delegates out of a summit of over 200 bishops came from the west. It tells us something important about the importance of the east.
This trend continued at later councils too, Ephesus, Constantinople and Kalkedon.

Stabat said:

The comparison was made on purpose. As Beloved wrote, some of us really questions the origin of our church as it stands. Besides, the east never fully went along with the papacy as an institution.

Already at the council of Trullo they seemed to oppose the papacy as we defined it. It wasnt harmony between the theology of the east and the eest.
This whole east/west friction started already at the council in Constantinople in 553 AD.

The fact that St. Peter was given authority over the other apostles in matters of faith and moral doesnt automatically means that such authoritys handed down through succession. Christ never said that to Peter in the gospels.
The idea first seemed to emerge with Ireneus in the second century, but without to much support of the church to begin with.

This isnt as easy as some people wants it to be, just saying.

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You've missed it, but that's ok, your attention was elsewhere.

pdudgeon said:

You've missed it, but that's ok, your attention was elsewhere.

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Tell me where I'm wrong. Is there anything that I wrote that's false and deceitful? Its merely facts.

Besides read about the first four councils yourself. Historically the papacy emerges (in a shape that bears resemblance to what we see today) only in the 6th century.

Beloved2018 said:

I'm still dumb-struck at JP2 kissing a Koran. This really is only the summit of something that's been boiling for a long time. I guess the question is, what's going to come of it all.
If everything proceeds down it's present path, the Church is dead and was really never the Church to begin with. I refuse to believe this. Too many confessors and martyrs have died. Rome has fought back too many heresies and had, prior to the Reformation, single-handedly brought Christ and civilization to the West. It just can't end like this. But with Islam and secularism at our door, with a capitulating Pope who is helping both along, we need a miracle. One that will save the papacy, our Church and society.

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First, the Koran kissing. It did happen, it was a real Koran and he really kissed it. For more, you can read Jimmy Aiken on the subjest here: JP2 And The Quran – Jimmy Akin

I consider kissing the Koran to be a bad mistake, one that was not in keeping with the doctrinal sense of pope John Paul II, particularly not at all in keeping with 'Dominus Iesus'. I think he was being diplomatically polite. Not a crypto-Muslim in the clothing of a pope. Others disagree.

Now whatever pope Francis is doing seems a whole kind of different deal. And we do need a miracle. It's playing out in real time, and the prayers have to happen in real time too.

I'll give Jimmy a listen. Pray for me, that I keep an open heart for Jimmy's sake. Because I'm not in the mood to give anyone leniency even JP2. If he is indeed in heaven, I know he understands.

chevyontheriver said:

First, the Koran kissing. It did happen, it was a real Koran and he really kissed it. For more, you can read Jimmy Aiken on the subjest here: JP2 And The Quran – Jimmy Akin

I consider kissing the Koran to be a bad mistake, one that was not in keeping with the doctrinal sense of pope John Paul II, particularly not at all in keeping with 'Dominus Iesus'. I think he was being diplomatically polite. Not a crypto-Muslim in the clothing of a pope. Others disagree.

Now whatever pope Francis is doing seems a whole kind of different deal. And we do need a miracle. It's playing out in real time, and the prayers have to happen in real time too.

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Beloved2018 said:

I'll give Jimmy a listen. Pray for me, that I keep an open heart for Jimmy's sake. Because I'm not in the mood to give anyone leniency even JP2. If he is indeed in heaven, I know he understands.

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In this case it's a 'read' and not a 'listen'. Check out some of the 303 comments too. Those come in all flavors.

In my mind there is a huge difference between a 'mistake', however bad, and the kind of syncretism that appears very deliberate in pope Francis.

And pray. Pray for me, for yourself, for others here that we can persevere. For the pope, that God can reach him, And for all the people who need to hear the Gospel with clarity before it is too late.

chevyontheriver said:

In my mind there is a huge difference between a 'mistake', however bad, and the kind of syncretism that appears very deliberate in pope Francis.

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Indeed. It's a matter of coherency and the Quran scandal of JPii was an incoherent episode that stood out in a otherwise decent papacy.
The only thing I'll protest against papa JP is his appointments. He was the one to appoint Cardinal Bergogolio among others. Crd Kasper is also part of JPiis legacy.
It's a shame and it affects the church on many levels.

That being said, Francis is a new fish in the pond. Perhaps only to be compared to John XXIII. He's unorthodox and the coherent story of his papacy is heresy.

We could live in peace as Catholics for most parts of JPii reign, but this is not the case for Francis pontificate. He's promoting division and heresy and should be stopped somehow.

Okay. I read it. And I read some of the comments too.
I disagree with Jimmy's conclusion.
If it was the Koran and if the Pope knew it was the Koran, and he kissed it anyway, then it was 'not just a mistake' on the Pope's part. Because he at the very least caused scandal. I had forgotten all about the Assisi 'Day of Prayer' affair. This is a point where I depart from the Catechism. I do not, under no circumstances believe that Christians worship the same God as Muslims. There's a pattern here one that ends in Pachamamas on Vatican grounds. I do not believe that JP2 was a false Christian. Nor am I blaming him for the current apostasy. But I do believe the Church was engaging in false ecumenism, hurting our witness in the world, and ultimately I can see how Francis came to power. I don't think this current pontifical trouble was something the wind just blew in.

Stabat said:

Indeed. It's a matter of coherency and the Quran scandal of JPii was an incoherent episode that stood out in a otherwise decent papacy.
The only thing I'll protest against papa JP is his appointments. He was the one to appoint Cardinal Bergogolio among others. Crd Kasper is also part of JPiis legacy.
It's a shame and it affects the church on many levels.

That being said, Francis is a new fish in the pond. Perhaps only to be compared to John XXIII. He's unorthodox and the coherent story of his papacy is heresy.

We could live in peace as Catholics for most parts of JPii reign, but this is not the case for Francis pontificate. He's promoting division and heresy and should be stopped somehow

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Beloved2018 said:

Okay. I read it. And I read some of the comments too.
I disagree with Jimmy's conclusion.
If it was the Koran and if the Pope knew it was the Koran, and he kissed it anyway, then it was 'not just a mistake' on the Pope's part. Because he at the very least caused scandal. I had forgotten all about the Assisi 'Day of Prayer' affair. This is a point where I depart from the Catechism. I do not, under no circumstances believe that Christians worship the same God as Muslims. There's a pattern here one that ends in Pachamamas on Vatican grounds. I do not believe that JP2 was a false Christian. Nor am I blaming him for the current apostasy. But I do believe the Church was engaging in false ecumenism, hurting our witness in the world, and ultimately I can see how Francis came to power. I don't think this current pontifical trouble was something the wind just blew in.

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I believe its important to keep in mind that these theologians that were talking about ( except Francis) played a role somehow in the council.
Benedict was present at vatican ii and while JPii wanst he sure did support it.

This means that these men supported Nostra aetate and one of them even played a key part in the articulation of this uturn in catholic history.
The attitude towards the jews prior to Vatican ii was that they stumbled in Christ. He is the cornerstone that the jews rejected, thus they're heading for perdition unless they convert.

Islam on the other hand was considered to be a grave heresy to begin with (until year 1000 or so) and then they were highly linked with the it idea of Antichrist and his denial of the saving work of God, in Christ.

Pagan idolatry in Islam and stumbling stone in judaism. The idea that we share something because of God the Father is new and would be met with disgust by each and every pope until Vatican ii.

The lukewarmness of Vatican ii has given the rise of accusations of a new order church by sedes among others. It's not a surprise in any way.

This stupid cherade of apologizing for our defence of the Christian civilization during the crusaders period is just adding to that. Francis is in line with the post counciliar church in most ways, but as I see it Vatican ii is a false council as it claimed heresy.

Jews and muslims are to be converted and their ideology to be fought against. I'll borrow one of the slogans from the time of reformation ; "Solus Christus!".

Christ alone, he is our redemption and our life. Remember how it went down at the transfiguration of Christ. Moses and Elijah disappeared and alone stood Christ. He is my son, do as he says!

Why aren't we doing as he said? Why are we trying to be generous on his behalf? I'm the way, the truth and life. No one comes to the father except through me!

Solus Christus! Solus Christus!

Stabat said:

Indeed. It's a matter of coherency and the Quran scandal of JPii was an incoherent episode that stood out in a otherwise decent papacy.
The only thing I'll protest against papa JP is his appointments. He was the one to appoint Cardinal Bergogolio among others. Crd Kasper is also part of JPiis legacy.
It's a shame and it affects the church on many levels.

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Agreed. It was an incoherent event in what I would call a decent papacy by a holy and intelligent man.

Until pope Francis, picking cardinals had been less ideological. I shake my head at some of the choices from the past, but then there have been some really good ones too. Now I just shake my head pretty much at every appointment.

That being said, Francis is a new fish in the pond. Perhaps only to be compared to John XXIII. He's unorthodox and the coherent story of his papacy is heresy.

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Pope John was not the liberal that the liberals have maintained him to be.

We could live in peace as Catholics for most parts of JPii reign, but this is not the case for Francis pontificate. He's promoting division and heresy and should be stopped somehow.

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He is doing what some of his electors, the Sanct Gallen folks, expected him to do. The others who voted for him thought they were going to get a curial reformer, and we haven't seen that yet in any good way, as sex scandals and financial scandals and curial fiefdoms endure.

Beloved2018 said:

Okay. I read it. And I read some of the comments too.
I disagree with Jimmy's conclusion.
If it was the Koran and if the Pope knew it was the Koran, and he kissed it anyway, then it was 'not just a mistake' on the Pope's part. Because he at the very least caused scandal. I had forgotten all about the Assisi 'Day of Prayer' affair. This is a point where I depart from the Catechism. I do not, under no circumstances believe that Christians worship the same God as Muslims. There's a pattern here one that ends in Pachamamas on Vatican grounds. I do not believe that JP2 was a false Christian. Nor am I blaming him for the current apostasy. But I do believe the Church was engaging in false ecumenism, hurting our witness in the world,

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Having lived with Muslims, and around Pagans, I see a big difference between them. Islam is not salvific, and they wrongly understand God. But there is a world of difference between them and the Pagans I encountered. I can see Muslims as wrongly understanding God, in a similar way to how the Jews, the Chosen People, wrongly understood God. The Pagans are believing in multiple gods and goddesses in a demonic mess. I see Islam as by in large a Christian heresy, Mohammad as a perverse man, and no actual revelation from God in the Koran. But I do think it is as much the same God as the God of the Jews, just as misunderstood. Other people disagree with me.

I was always careful in my time with Muslims, to avoid syncretism. And to stay far far away from the Paganism that would not at all be alien to Pachamamaism. But I would converse with an Imam, I would pray for Muslims, and they would pray for me. No kissing Korans and no bowing down in mosques from me. One can respect a person without joining their religion. Or appearing to join them. And that is what kissing a Koran could mean to some Muslims.

Lots of people forget that one can respect a person without joining their religion, which was why pope John Paul II had 'Dominus Iesus' issued, and before it 'Ut Unum Sint'. A false ecumenism has existed in the Catholic Church for a while now, and needed to be corrected. It needs even more to be corrected today when we hear that other religions are willed by God, implying that they are salvific. That simply is not true of Islam nor of Pachamamaism, of Hinduism nor Buddhism, nor any of the rest outside of the orbit of Christ. The only one you could build any sort of case for is Judaism before Jesus.

... and ultimately I can see how Francis came to power. I don't think this current pontifical trouble was something the wind just blew in.

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I think this is the last hurrah for the Modernist Mafia in a last chance bid for power. They were on their way out otherwise. But many Modernists were at the height of their power, as they had quietly gotten themselves into places of power in Church bureaucracy over the years. If they could only engineer the election of a pope. And they did.

Some of those cardinals should never have been picked. Too many others voted for Francis thinking he would be a reformer of the Curia, which he hasn't actually done.

Stabat said:

Benedict was present at vatican ii and while JPii wanst he sure did support it.

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John Paul II was at every session of Vatican II as a bishop. Benedict XVII was at the council as a 'peritus' or a theological advisor to his bishop. John Paul II was also on the commission to advise pope Paul VI on contraception, and his contribution was the likely thing that pushed pope Paul to come out against contraception in 'Humanae Vitae'. The majority of the commission wanted contraception, and Wojek was one of the very few against it.

Nostra Aetate was passed 2221 to 88 at Vatican II.

Beloved2018 said:

I guess some of us have a nagging doubt in the back of our minds, is this Church, headed by Koran-kissing, idol-endorsing, etc, ect, bunch of guys is the Ark? I know I do. Ever since I converted, it's been one headache after another, beginning with my conversion! That in itself was a nightmare!

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Just trust in Christ, friend. Saint Peter was a stumbling, poorly spoken, blaspheming, Christ-denying mess. Christ also gave him charge over His sheep, and lambs, in spite of it.

Breathe. It's hard, but it's going to be ok. We follow Christ, stay in union with Rome, and do the best we can, and pray.

chevyontheriver said:

Nostra Aetate was passed 2221 to 88 at Vatican II.

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88 bishops and cardinals willing to uphold the faith of the medieval church, how sad.
Makes me think of the narrow road...