A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

genez said:

So what? If tongues ended like the Bible says they would? Why all the denials?

If it did end? Some believers are being robbed and stolen from... by the thief who deceives anyone without mercy.

Myself included as a possible victim if I fail to keep myself straight with the Word of God. For we in our own way of reasoning can not always know God's ways. That is where believers get deceived. Because.. "It feels/seems right to me and them."

The Word of God at times will run diametrically opposed to what many humans think is truth, and will agree together wholeheartedly to. Its the reason why we see so many divisions in the many denominations.

Click to expand...

But the whole point is...that the Bible does not say anywhere that tongues have ended before the church age. So to say that the Bible says they would before the Rapture when all Christian believers are taken up to meet the Lord in the air, is the invention of man and not the Word of God at all!

genez said:

So that's your intelligent reproval? Mocking and scorn?

That's what the religious leaders did with Jesus...

While Jesus gave them... "It is written!"

Click to expand...

I'm not mocking you personally. I know that you sincerely believe what you believe about tongues.

But, apart from the "that which is perfect has come", which clearly speaks about the second coming of Christ, there are no Scriptures anywhere that say tongues and prophecy are to cease before then.

They did cease for sure, but not because of God, but because of the changes in the nature of the church so that the Holy Spirit control was replaced by the control of the bishops and ultimately the bishop of Rome. It is interesting that the Eastern Orthodox church that split from Rome, had tongues and prophecy evident up to the 12th Century!

NBB said:

Satanists pray too, the devil i guess can heal too somewhat, so what?
We should stop beileving in miracles because the devil does them too?

Click to expand...

There will come a time after the Rapture that the anti-Christ will arise and bring in a time of great signs and wonders, but they will be false.

genez said:

They only have proof that something happens to them.

I saw a professional hypnotist replicate a Pentecostal/charismatic service... including what is referred to today as being slain in the Spirit. Some were getting the joy in the Spirit. Being filled with a deep feeling of love for others.. It was spooky to see it replicated in a secular environment.

Some hypnotists have fun by getting subjects speaking gibberish with someone interpreting. Tongues can also be induced in hypnotism. There are videos online showing it being done. The people involved in such actions are convinced its real while its happening.......

I'd rather stay with what is written and remain protected.

Click to expand...

I went to an Amway conference and it was structured like a Evangelistic meeting. So what?

Oscarr said:

I'm not mocking you personally. I know that you sincerely believe what you believe about tongues.

But, apart from the "that which is perfect has come", which clearly speaks about the second coming of Christ, there are no Scriptures anywhere that say tongues and prophecy are to cease before then.

Click to expand...

Think a bit more about it. If its about the second coming of Christ? Why will not evangelism and pastor teachers cease as well? Jesus will be the teacher of all, and evangelism will have become defunct. Like I said.,,, better think it over a bit more.

Besides... in the Greek text the "the completed" would have to be in the masculine gender to mean the Lord. Instead? Its a neuter gender. Meaning? When some 'thing' will be completed. The Bible!

You see, its not as simplistic as some want to force it to be. Knowledge saves. The Lord said that ignorance causes His people to be destroyed.

Oscarr said:

I went to an Amway conference and it was structured like a Evangelistic meeting. So what?

Click to expand...

You are only revealing what depth and understanding you are working with. What you said, reveals you have completely missed the point of what was said. Another person would have grasped it instantly.. So be it.

NBB said:

You doubt so much because i have pentecostal beliefs?.

Click to expand...

I didn't even know you had pentecostal anything, nor did I doubt anything because of your beliefs - TESTING is as WRITTEN in the BIBLE, for proving (and actually God TESTS US with a POSITIVE EXPECTATION , to SHOW the truth of our FAITH) .... when/if/ the TESTS of Scripture show otherwise, then correction is needed, obviously, and when the tests show the truth of our faith, it is as written in Scripture BETTER THAN GOLD, yes better than much fine gold, and is how we overcome : with the word of our testimony and the blood of the lamb! (in spirit and in truth) ....

genez said:

Think a bit more about it. If its about the second coming of Christ? Why will not evangelism and pastor teachers cease as well? Jesus will be the teacher of all, and evangelism will have become defunct. Like I said.,,, better think it over a bit more.

Besides... in the Greek text the "the completed" would have to be in the masculine gender to mean the Lord. Instead? Its a neuter gender. Meaning? When some 'thing' will be completed. The Bible!

You see, its not as simplistic as some want to force it to be. Knowledge saves. The Lord said that ignorance causes His people to be destroyed.

Click to expand...

You are not thinking like Paul in the First Century. You are thinking like a 21st Century Cessationist. Paul had no idea of a canon of the New Testament, and he wasn't expecting to be one in the future. It beats me how you can read something into what Paul has said when he had absolutely no inkling of what you think he might have meant.

For goodness sake! Paul was looking to the second coming of Christ in his lifetime! So were all the Apostles and Christian believers. Paul certainly wasn't thinking of 200 years in the future when all the gospels, his letters, along with the others were going to be collected and decided upon to be the canon of New Testament Scripture. During his ministry all he had were the Old Testament Scriptures.

No one actually started thinking about a canon of New Testament Scriptures to be added to the Old Testament until at least the 2nd Century AD, more than 100 years after Paul's death!

So, any intelligent person with common sense would know that Paul was talking about the Second Coming of Christ and not the silly, half-baked notion that it was about the canon of New Testament Scripture!

genez said:

You are only revealing what depth and understanding you are working with. What you said, reveals you have completely missed the point of what was said. Another person would have grasped it instantly.. So be it.

Click to expand...

So be it. I've said all I am going to say. Anything more and I would just be repeating myself.

Oscarr said:

You are not thinking like Paul in the First Century. You are thinking like a 21st Century Cessationist. Paul had no idea of a canon of the New Testament, and he wasn't expecting to be one in the future. It beats me how you can read something into what Paul has said when he had absolutely no inkling of what you think he might have meant.

For goodness sake! Paul was looking to the second coming of Christ in his lifetime! So were all the Apostles and Christian believers. Paul certainly wasn't thinking of 200 years in the future when all the gospels, his letters, along with the others were going to be collected and decided upon to be the canon of New Testament Scripture. During his ministry all he had were the Old Testament Scriptures.

No one actually started thinking about a canon of New Testament Scriptures to be added to the Old Testament until at least the 2nd Century AD, more than 100 years after Paul's death!

So, any intelligent person with common sense would know that Paul was talking about the Second Coming of Christ and not the silly, half-baked notion that it was about the canon of New Testament Scripture!

Click to expand...

I agree. "The perfect" that should stop tongues and prophecies was not the canon in the 4th century, but the coming of God's kingdom in 66-70 AD.

Tongues were signs of last times for their generation.

solid_core said:

I agree. "The perfect" that should stop tongues and prophecies was not the canon in the 4th century, but the coming of God's kingdom in 66-70 AD.

Tongues were signs of last times for their generation.

Click to expand...

What? The church fathers and Augustine reported the people in his churches still speaking in tongues right through to the 4th Century! Eastern Orthodox believers were reported to be praying in tongues right through to the 12th Century! None of the church fathers wrote that the tongues they observed were false in any way.

In fact, the Kingdom of God had come before Jesus was crucified. He said, "Now is the kingdom come unto you."

Frankly, you can't just make stuff up in your own head to try and prove Cessationism!

Oscarr said:

What? The church fathers and Augustine reported the people in his churches still speaking in tongues right through to the 4th Century! Eastern Orthodox believers were reported to be praying in tongues right through to the 12th Century! None of the church fathers wrote that the tongues they observed were false in any way.

In fact, the Kingdom of God had come before Jesus was crucified. He said, "Now is the kingdom come unto you."

Frankly, you can't just make stuff up in your own head to try and prove Cessationism!

Click to expand...

Not everything that is reported as "speaking in tongues" is the biblical speaking in tongues.

So called speaking in tongues generally is also reported from catholic, muslim, spiritist and pagan circles.

But the biblical speaking in tonges ended when the Kingdom of God came. Of course, not from day to day, but more or less with that generation. If somebody was 15, with the gift of tongues in 70 AD, his gift could persevere with him the next 60 years, why not.

Oscarr said:

What? The church fathers and Augustine reported the people in his churches still speaking in tongues...

Frankly, you can't just make stuff up in your own head to try and prove Cessationism!

Click to expand...

Exactly, do not make your stuff up:

In the earliest times, 'the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues,' which they had not learned, 'as the Spirit gave them utterance' [Acts 2:4]. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away".
Augustin, Homilies on the First Epistle of John 6.10

solid_core said:

Not everything that is reported as "speaking in tongues" is the biblical speaking in tongues.

So called speaking in tongues generally is also reported from catholic, muslim, spiritist and pagan circles.

But the biblical speaking in tonges ended when the Kingdom of God came. Of course, not from day to day, but more or less with that generation. If somebody was 15, with the gift of tongues in 70 AD, his gift could persevere with him the next 60 years, why not.

Click to expand...

The church was born at the Day of Pentecost and the arrival of tongues signalled the coming of the kingdom of God through Christ. Judaism ceased when Jesus died on the cross, not with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Paul had no idea that the Romans were going to invade and destroy the Temple when he wrote 1 Corinthians.

Jesus came into His kingdom when he took the penitent thief to Paradise.

I don't know where you got the notion that the kingdom of God started with the destruction of the Temple. It certainly does not come from Scripture because there are no references to it. And nothing in the writings of the church fathers support it either. Therefore your view is not mainstream Christianity at all.

Augustine did believe in his early ministry that the gifts had passed away, but he changed his position in his later ministry after being overwhelmed with evidence to the contrary in his churches. He told the Pope that he believed that the gifts were continuing, but the Roman church suppressed his new view, and stuck with his old view. Church History 101!!!

So I think that your doctrinal view went down with the Titanic!!

genez said:

Can you name any church that today still exists, and is apostate? The fact that it exists? Means its not apostate? That was the reasoning you just gave me.

Click to expand...

There are dozens, even hundreds, of denominations and each worship and interpret the Bible in a slightly different way, or have church practices with which others don't agree. But that doesn't mean they are apostate. All born again Christians believe the one Gospel and worship the true God.

genez said:

Something is called tongues today. Same manifestations can be found in cults and pagan religions. Google the following... "video Hindus speaking in tongues" There are videos.

Click to expand...

I'm not talking about Hindus speaking in another language. I'm talking about Christians giving a message from God in a language they don't know and have not learned; the result of which is that a 3rd person present, who DOES know the language, meets Jesus, is converted and becomes a Christian. That is from the Holy Spirit; it draws someone to Jesus.

Cults, pagans and other religions may speak in "tongues" or even a language they had not learned - but what is the result?
If the result is that they are honoured or praised for being gifted or clever; if it leads them to believe that their god/cult/the devil is real, then it is a counterfeit gift. The devil, sadly, does that in order to lead people astray. But if the result of speaking in this unknown language is to preach the Gospel, proclaim God's word, lead people to Jesus and that even one person becomes born again and filled with the Spirit; that is from God.

genez said:

Its exists today with non believers in Jesus and they may be working with you in your workplace. So? That means tongues is Biblical?

Click to expand...

If they don't believe in God, are not speaking a language given by God's Holy Spirit and the result does not glorify Jesus and result in them, or others, becoming Christians - it's not tongues and they can call it what they like.

genez said:

The Reformation did not end certain believers from praying to Mary. Since they do today? That means its right? There again is your logic you gave me.

Click to expand...

Someone may pray "to" Mary, but it is the Lord, in his mercy and grace, who answers. I believe that at some point the Lord would show them the truth about who they are praying to - maybe it is enough that they are praying, though.

genez said:

Why do you think we needed to be told that tongues would end?

Click to expand...

Paul was saying that all outward gifts - and, for that matter, anything else that we hold onto and now think to be important - will end; but love never will. He was speaking about the qualities of love; that it will last forever, unlike some of the things that the church was arguing about.

genez said:

There has always been corruption seeping into the church. After all. Its Satan's main concern. For Jesus told us only the Truth will make a man free from Satan's influence. Only the Truth. Not observation and opinion.

Click to expand...

The truth is that some Christians speak in tongues.
For some, it is a prayer language with which they praise and worship God. Some use this language and then they are given insight into what God wants them to do, or maybe given a word of knowledge; at the very least it strengthens their faith, prayer life and relationship with God.
Others may have the gift of tongues and use it in a church service - and others will be strengthened, blessed of converted when they hear a message from God. I have heard Christians, who 5 minutes before were preaching the Gospel in the power of the Spirit, speak in tongues in this way.

If you don't want to believe that God can, and does, work in this way; your loss.

genez said:

Besides... in the Greek text the "the completed" would have to be in the masculine gender to mean the Lord. Instead? Its a neuter gender. Meaning? When some 'thing' will be completed. The Bible!

Click to expand...

The Bible itself doesn't say that; that's your idea.

Oscarr said:

You are not thinking like Paul in the First Century. You are thinking like a 21st Century Cessationist. Paul had no idea of a canon of the New Testament, and he wasn't expecting to be one in the future. It beats me how you can read something into what Paul has said when he had absolutely no inkling of what you think he might have meant.

For goodness sake! Paul was looking to the second coming of Christ in his lifetime! So were all the Apostles and Christian believers. Paul certainly wasn't thinking of 200 years in the future when all the gospels, his letters, along with the others were going to be collected and decided upon to be the canon of New Testament Scripture. During his ministry all he had were the Old Testament Scriptures.

No one actually started thinking about a canon of New Testament Scriptures to be added to the Old Testament until at least the 2nd Century AD, more than 100 years after Paul's death!

So, any intelligent person with common sense would know that Paul was talking about the Second Coming of Christ and not the silly, half-baked notion that it was about the canon of New Testament Scripture!

Click to expand...

That makes a lot of sense.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

How does that doctrine compare with the restoration of salvation by faith in Jesus ?
I'd think being saved by faith is more important (a greater accomplishment) ?

Click to expand...

I think they're 2 faces for the same coin / doctrine. But you're quite right, if we had to separate them then "salvation by faith" comes first.

Oscarr said:

So I think that your doctrinal view went down with the Titanic!!

Click to expand...

ummm.... wasn't the titanic raised ? or was just some things salvaged from it....

Oscarr said:

It is interesting that the Eastern Orthodox church that split from Rome, had tongues and prophecy evident up to the 12th Century!

Click to expand...

This is a _very_ surprising piece of info. Do you have references?