"Artificial" Apologetics for the Truth of the book of Revelation

2PhiloVoid · Dec 21, 2018

Partially in response to talks given in 2018 by Yuval Noah Harari [as seen here], the Apologetics ministry of Ravi Zacharias very recently presented the following talk given by the Christian apologist, mathematician and philosopher of science, John Lennox, followed by further assessments from two additional Christian intellectuals, Cameraon McAllister and Jill Carattini (the latter is a BioLogos associate).

Lennox's talk pertains to how we might hermeneutically appraise and equate the onset of A.I. technology with a fulfillment of a few of the prophetic motifs we find written in the book of Revelation. Since the video I present below containing Lennox's talk is actually "apologetic" in nature and is meant to 'counter' the onset of Trans-humanism and the advances of uber-advocates of certain applications of A.I., then I think this belongs most appropriately in the Christian Apologetics section for all to deliberate over.

The video is quite long [~ 2 hours], but John Lennox provides a lot of possible grist as "potential evidence" to support how some Christians (such as myself) see some form of fulfillment of Biblical prophecy today by intelligently assessing various modern day developments, both political and technological.

So, I leave this here for ALL to ponder, discuss and/or debate.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 23, 2018

Oh good golly, people! Ok.......you want it spoon fed to you, ay? Then here's the spoon feed:

1 Proponents and social/historical analysts of Artificial Intelligence and Artificial General Intelligence are 'predicting' that A.I. overall can become, if not a bane in and of itself to humanity, a tool by which dictators could (and already to some extent do) survey and control the masses ...

2 Lennox, and other Christians of his reasoning, see that the point above potentially dovetails with what could be interpreted as a form of fulfillment of Revelation chapter 13.

Here's an Index of the OP video for your quick reference, if it helps you to find some 'piece' of it to listen to and to ponder over:

00:01 - 00:18 General Introduction and biographical discussion of Lennox's background

00:18 - 00:50 Introduction by Lennox to the application(s) of Artificial Intelligence, including a brief overview of Yuval Harari's ideas, among a few others

00:50 - 01:11 Lennox's main explication of points 1 and 2 above

01:11 - 01:37 Discussion and analysis of Lennox's talk by Cameron McAllister and Jill Carattini

01:37 - 02:09 Further Questions and Answers with Lennox, expanding upon the points he previously made

Nihilist Virus · Dec 25, 2018

2PhiloVoid said:
Oh good golly, people! Ok.......you want it spoon fed to you, ay? Then here's the spoon feed:

1 Proponents and social/historical analysts of Artificial Intelligence and Artificial General Intelligence are 'predicting' that A.I. overall can become, if not a bane in and of itself to humanity, a tool by which dictators could (and already to some extent do) survey and control the masses ...

2 Lennox, and other Christians of his reasoning, see that the point above potentially dovetails with what could be interpreted as a form of fulfillment of Revelation chapter 13.

Here's an Index of the OP video for your quick reference, if it helps you to find some 'piece' of it to listen to and to ponder over:

00:01 - 00:18 General Introduction and biographical discussion of Lennox's background

00:18 - 00:50 Introduction by Lennox to the application(s) of Artificial Intelligence, including a brief overview of Yuval Harari's ideas, among a few others

00:50 - 01:11 Lennox's main explication of points 1 and 2 above

01:11 - 01:37 Discussion and analysis of Lennox's talk by Cameron McAllister and Jill Carattini

01:37 - 02:09 Further Questions and Answers with Lennox, expanding upon the points he previously made

I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. When was this prediction made? Also, why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself? Lastly, as I've said, this isn't how prophecies work in the Bible. Revelation is not prophetic. It was a modern political commentary.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 25, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. When was this prediction made? Also, why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself? Lastly, as I've said, this isn't how prophecies work in the Bible. Revelation is not prophetic. It was a modern political commentary.

Oh. Ok. Lennox is wrong then, ipso facto. Alright. Thank you for the authoritative correction ...

2PhiloVoid · Dec 26, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. When was this prediction made? Also, why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself? Lastly, as I've said, this isn't how prophecies work in the Bible. Revelation is not prophetic. It was a modern political commentary.

You do know that I was being 'tongue-in-cheek' on that last post, don't you?

So, you think the book of Revelation isn't prophetic and only a political commentary? From which one of dozens of scholars have you plucked this assumption? I guess it goes without saying that Lennox thinks the book of Revelation is prophetic. As do I.

Nihilist Virus · Dec 26, 2018

2PhiloVoid said:
You do know that I was being 'tongue-in-cheek' on that last post, don't you?

So, you think the book of Revelation isn't prophetic and only a political commentary? From which one of dozens of scholars have you plucked this assumption? I guess it goes without saying that Lennox thinks the book of Revelation is prophetic. As do I.

In my last semester as an undergraduate I needed 9 units. Most classes are 4. Introduction to the Bible was 5, so by taking it I didn't have to deal with a 3rd class. The professor said that Revelation was contemporary political commentary.

You're free to argue that it is prophetic. We don't have to go over Deuteronomy 18 again and again. I just wanted to mention that issue here as it is a new thread. Under the tentative assumption that Revelation is prophetic, I asked,

"I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. (1) When was this prediction made? Also, (2) why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself?"

For some reason you focused entirely on the end of my post and ignored my actual questions as though they are invalid or something.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 27, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
In my last semester as an undergraduate I needed 9 units. Most classes are 4. Introduction to the Bible was 5, so by taking it I didn't have to deal with a 3rd class. The professor said that Revelation was contemporary political commentary.

Ok. Fair enough. At least I know now that you didn't just sit in a corner and come up with this answer through your own speculation.

You're free to argue that it is prophetic. We don't have to go over Deuteronomy 18 again and again. I just wanted to mention that issue here as it is a new thread. Under the tentative assumption that Revelation is prophetic, I asked,

"I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. (1) When was this prediction made? Also, (2) why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself?"

For some reason you focused entirely on the end of my post and ignored my actual questions as though they are invalid or something.

Yes, because it seemed to me that your questions were overshadowed by your subsequent statements. Be that as it may, I'll answer your questions.

1) In my mind, it doesn't seem to matter 'when' the predictions I'm referring to were made because the predictions have been made by non-Christians about what they deem are complex matters in the progression of A.I. technology. On some level, these are just "cautions" being given by those in the tech industry or in associated fields of science. So, in the OP video, we hear Lennox refer to Harari, but separately, I've pointed out that Harari has given his own view on some of the same kinds of cautionary measures that other like Bill Joy and Stephen Hawkings have already said should be taken. Of course, we could go back further than that to whatever cautionary sources informed the Sci-Fi movies and books we've had ever since Marry Shelly penned and published 'Frankenstein' in 1818.

2) I don't really know 'why' the book of Revelation would say one thing and not another. I do understand that by today's measures of thought, we can critique the articulation of Revelation and suggest that what we think could be said should have been said since it would be more helpful to our human cultural minds.

But no, I don't honestly know the answer as to 'why' one metaphor was chosen and not another. I wish I did know, but I can't travel back in time to interview the writer of Revelation to ascertain a few more insights about all of this that we'd all like to have.

However, just off the top of my head, I will offer this little bit of self-speculation that has occurred to me: in his talk in the OP video, Lennox differentiates A.I. from robotics, so ...... maybe the writer of Revelation could be said by us, from our point of view, to have unknowingly written in such a way that these two fields were referred to together and essentially fused together into one 'entity'; or perhaps it was that to simply mention an adding machine (or computer) would have been an understatement in describing how and to what purposes they would be eventually used.

I mean, it would be odd to say, "You'll see one of these come to life and wreak havoc......!!!"

History of Computers

But who really knows? I can't say that I do, even if I will say that I think Lennox has some interesting interpretive points he makes in his talk. However, from the way I read Revelation on the whole, the context seems to imply that the only one who 'really' knows is God ...

Quid est Veritas? · Dec 29, 2018

I have not yet watched your video. 2hrs is a bit long, though I shall certainly do so in the near future.

The point though, is something upon which I have long mulled. Revelation only really makes sense from this context. The whole Mark of the Beast and the inability to buy and sell, as a prophetic narrative, needs some method of enforcement that only technology can offer. Further, how does taking the Mark clearly imply repudiating God? It only makes sense from a perspective of invasive surveillance, someone knowing about you, about your proffered opinions. It implies God banished from the public and private sphere.

Already there are groups set-up to await the integrative AI entity they see will arise in the internet, and ready to 'worship' and subjugate themselves to it. Data mining and keeping track of location is sufficient to differentiate followers. Commerce is increasingly electronic. Smartphones are held in the palm of the hand or against the temple. The internet is a cup that runneth over of any abomination, easily procurable, certainly facilitating sin.

It seems to me that the obscure imagery of Revelation would be the only way to present such concepts to men long before the advent of the information age. 50 years ago I would have said a lot in Revelation was symbolic or representational; today, much seems far too probable, if seen in this context. Unless you start with the a priori belief in the impossibility of prophecy, I don't see how you can't take notice of here.

Even if you see Revelation as reflecting some Neronian past, prophecy in the Bible usually has a way of speaking beyond that context. Think of Hosea or Isaiah or Daniel, and this is plain.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 29, 2018

Quid est Veritas? said:
I have not yet watched your video. 2hrs is a bit long, though I shall certainly do so in the near future.

Yes, it's a bit long, but if you just want to get to the meat of the issues that Lennox talks about, you can look at the general index I created for the OP video in post #2.

The point though, is something upon which I have long mulled. Revelation only really makes sense from this context. The whole Mark of the Beast and the inability to buy and sell, as a prophetic narrative, needs some method of enforcement that only technology can offer. Further, how does taking the Mark clearly imply repudiating God? It only makes sense from a perspective of invasive surveillance, someone knowing about you, about your proffered opinions. It implies God banished from the public and private sphere.

That's some it. But, I'd offer the additional idea that both this 'system' of the Mark and its enforcement have been provided for by the political powers that be---in prophetic terms---ever since the time of the Roman Empire itself, with previous expressions of this kind of thing being historically seen in simpler, less systematic ways among the ancient Aegeans, Indians, Chinese, Babylonians, etc. Today, the 'system' is basically used for many of the same reasons that it was in the time of the Roman Empire, but with the increase in technology, there is a commensurate increase in its enforcement(s).

... think Abacus/Computer + Money + Census = Power (among other things).

So, while I think Lennox is on to something, I also think the passage in Revelation which he cites and which is in question here has application to the times in which it was originally written and it has had continued application ever since. But, there is a nuance within the passage that couldn't have been fulfilled in full until more Modern times. Let's just say that I think that a Christianized interpretive measure, like that of Lennox, when applied to Harari's implications about 'big-data,' actually hits up this aspect of it, which is something that Lennox alludes to in his talk in the OP video.

Here's a taste of Harari's thoughts [in the link below] which are couched within his secular perspective. The caveat in my reference to his thinking is that his concern about how "... an external system can know you better than you know yourself" is one that, from a Christian perspective, is something I think is too Promethean in nature to occur, but it can be something that those 'running' the System think they actually can do. And they'll do this [like they do today in China] by essentially playing God through accessing and controlling 'big-data,' with A.I. having various roles in this new expression of the same old Romaneseque 'system':

The Future According to the Author of Sapiens

Already there are groups set-up to await the integrative AI entity they see will arise in the internet, and ready to 'worship' and subjugate themselves to it. Data mining and keeping track of location is sufficient to differentiate followers. Commerce is increasingly electronic. Smartphones are held in the palm of the hand or against the temple. The internet is a cup that runneth over of any abomination, easily procurable, certainly facilitating sin.

It seems to me that the obscure imagery of Revelation would be the only way to present such concepts to men long before the advent of the information age. 50 years ago I would have said a lot in Revelation was symbolic or representational; today, much seems far too probable, if seen in this context. Unless you start with the a priori belief in the impossibility of prophecy, I don't see how you can't take notice of here.

Even if you see Revelation as reflecting some Neronian past, prophecy in the Bible usually has a way of speaking beyond that context. Think of Hosea or Isaiah or Daniel, and this is plain.

Yep! All good points, Quid! :oldthumbsup:

2PhiloVoid · Dec 29, 2018

Tech expert says merging 5G and artificial intelligence will make humans better problem solvers

Yeah......right. It sounds more like a ploy for 'networked-conformity' to me.

But, I could be wrong. :dontcare:

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 21, 2019

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. When was this prediction made? Also, why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself? Lastly, as I've said, this isn't how prophecies work in the Bible. Revelation is not prophetic. It was a modern political commentary.

Revelation is a prophecy.......it says so in Reve 1:3 for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
It mainly concerns the 1st century Jews leading up to the destruction of their great City, 70AD Jerusalem by the arms of the Romans........
===================
Used in 7 verses of the book of Revelation......

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G 4394: προφητεία

προφητεία, προφητείας, ἡ (προφητεύω, which see), Hebrew נְבוּאָה, prophecy, i. e. discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events. Used in the N. T. — of the utterances of the O. T. prophets: Matthew 13:14; 2 Peter 1:20, 21 (on this passage see γίνομαι, 5 e. α.); — of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining thereto: Revelation 11:6; Revelation 22:19; τό πνεῦμα τῆς προφητείας, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due,

G4394 προφητεία (prophēteia), occurs 19 times in 19 verses

Revelation 1:1
An un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming in/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy<4394> and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time is nigh<1451>.

Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Jesus once again reaffirms it is a prophecy:

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of this Scroll.
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>

Used 1 time in the Gospels:

Matthew 13:14
“And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
===============================

Ezr 6:14
and the elders of the Jews are building and prospering through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah son of Iddo, and they have built and finished by the decree of the God of Israel, and by the decree of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Nihilist Virus · Nov 21, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Revelation is a prophecy.......it says so in Reve 1:3 for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
It mainly concerns the 1st century Jews leading up to the destruction of their great City, 70AD Jerusalem by the arms of the Romans........
===================
Used in 7 verses of the book of Revelation......

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G 4394: προφητεία

G4394 προφητεία (prophēteia), occurs 19 times in 19 verses

Revelation 1:1
An un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming in/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy<4394> and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time is nigh<1451>.

Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Jesus once again reaffirms it is a prophecy:

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of this Scroll.
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>

Used 1 time in the Gospels:

Matthew 13:14
“And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
===============================

Ezr 6:14
and the elders of the Jews are building and prospering through the prophecy of Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah son of Iddo, and they have built and finished by the decree of the God of Israel, and by the decree of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Deuteronomy 18 and prophecies about Jesus

FireDragon76 · Nov 23, 2019

Is John Lennox peddling in doom and gloom to sell people on Jesus? He used to just be content with philosophical arguments.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 29, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Is John Lennox peddling in doom and gloom to sell people on Jesus? He used to just be content with philosophical arguments.

It could be that Lennox is "peddling" in the doom and gloom of the book of Revelation; but if he's correct, what else would the outcome be for those who persist with resistance against the Lord? I doubt it's going to ultimately be Butterflies and Rainbows.

By the way, if you didn't fully watch the video in the OP, maybe just don't comment on it, especially since you've decided to draw a spiritual dividing line of late.

FireDragon76 · Nov 29, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
It could be that Lennox is "peddling" in the doom and gloom of the book of Revelation; but if he's correct, what else would the outcome be for those who persist with resistance against the Lord? I doubt it's going to ultimately be Butterflies and Rainbows.

So your idea of Jesus is more like a thug that's punishes people simply for weighing the evidence and coming to different conclusions?

Yes, this is exactly the reason I am no longer a Christian. I don't respond well to threats.

And the idea of the apocalypse and the rapture is pure fantasy. But selling people on an ideology that causes them to lose trust in their basic ability to effect positive change in the world... that's downright malicious.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 29, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
So your idea of Jesus is more like a thug that's punishes people simply for weighing the evidence and coming to different conclusions?

Yes, this is exactly the reason I am no longer a Christian. I don't respond well to threats.

And the idea of the apocalypse and the rapture is pure fantasy. But selling people on an ideology that causes them to lose trust in their basic ability to effect positive change in the world... that's downright malicious.

Y'know, I've in no way been an enemy to you, and we've hardly tangled these last few years on Cf, but I've noticed of late that your rhetoric has been increasingly fit to untie my particular views on things. Why is this? What have I done here that other Christians on CF haven't?

What is it? Is your steady laying of thicker and thicker imputation of misdeed to my account coming because I'll defend every other Tom, Dick and Scary but I won't "stand in the gap" for the LGBT(+) community? Is that the problem here? So, you're hacked that I won't seem to make some final liberal step that is the one that you'd most like for me make?

I mean, I've hardly said anything to you of any negative substance and you're just landing into me like I'm some ultra offender. Well, I have news for you. I won't accept the charge! So, back off!

FireDragon76 · Nov 29, 2019

@2PhiloVoid It's not about your views about the LGBT community, don't change the subject. I'm more disappointed that you seem wedded to fundamentalist interpretations of biblical prophecy and seem oblivious to higher criticism of the biblical texts. Criticism that is widely accepted by most mainline Protestant and Catholic scholars.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 29, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
@2PhiloVoid It's not about your views about the LGBT community, don't change the subject. I'm more disappointed that you seem wedded to fundamentalist interpretations of biblical prophecy and seem oblivious to higher criticism of the biblical texts. Criticism that is widely accepted by most mainline Protestant and Catholic scholars.

Am I wedded to fundamentalist interpretations of biblical prophecy? If I am, this is the first I've heard about it. :dontcare:

As far as what folks like Elaine Pagels might think about the book of Revelation, it's not that I'm oblivious to their criticisms, it's that I ignore them to some extent.

I'm guessing you also didn't bother to read that book entry I offered a while back, did you? That's ok if you didn't. I'll just place it here for others to peruse as an offering to the masses ... just so they'll have insight into how deeply my 'fundamentalist' drive is in handling the book of Revelation.

God and History in the Book of Revelation: New Testament Studies in Dialogue with Pannenberg and Moltmann (by MICHAEL GILBERTSON)

FireDragon76 · Nov 30, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
I'm guessing you also didn't bother to read that book entry I offered a while back, did you? That's ok if you didn't. I'll just place it here for others to peruse as an offering to the masses ... just so they'll have insight into how deeply my 'fundamentalist' drive is in handling the book of Revelation.

I read it but it's not clear to me how that relates to the subject matter of the video, which is downright silly in comparison, full of the usual evangelical nonsense.

FireDragon76 · Nov 30, 2019

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't see why we should be astonished if that prediction comes true... unless this prediction was made over 70 years ago or so. When was this prediction made? Also, why couldn't Revelation have said something about an adding machine that would be able to think for itself? Lastly, as I've said, this isn't how prophecies work in the Bible. Revelation is not prophetic. It was a modern political commentary.

Right. That's why I think it's unfortunate that @2PhiloVoid is badly misreading Revelation. There really aren't any clues here as to to the future of artificial intelligence, because that's not what the book is really about.

Mr. Lennox is just using peoples interest in AI to try to shoehorn in a bit of evangelical religion. But this is what I mean by ignorance of higher criticism of the Bible. The Bible is not a magic code book that can decipher our futures in that manner.

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