The Santa Clown

ViaCrucis

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Clowns freak me out just like Satan Claws!

I've been doing a ton of research on Christmas stuff this year. Very fascinating yet at the same time downright freaky stuff I've discovered.

Beware the leaven of the internet crackpots, for they speak as if they are knowledgeable, but are unable to cite their sources or present credible substantiations to their claims.

Here are some common misconceptions:

- Christmas is based on the Roman feast of Saturnalia, which was observed on December 25th.

A. This is false, the Roman Saturnalia began on December 17th, and depending on the time could last between for several days. At its longest, Saturnalia ended on December 23rd.

Saturnalia - Wikipedia

- Christmas is based on the Roman celebration of Mithras, who was born on December 25th.

A. This is false, the Roman Mithraicism did not have a "birthday" celebration for Mithras, because, in fact, Mithras wasn't born. Rather Mithras was said to have emerged as a fully formed adult male from solid rock. Mithraic art of the "birth" of Mithras from antiquity has been preserved and is well attested to:

cimrm860.jpg


- Christmas originated as a borrowing of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or the Birth Day of the Unconquered Sun, which occurred on December 25th.

A. Pure conjecture. The Cult of Sol Invictus originated in the mid 3rd century under Emperor Aurelian, though a cultus of the sun had developed earlier in the 3rd century, especially under Emperor Elagabalus, who prior to his ascension to purple had been a priest of a Syrian solar deity, as such Elagabalus favored the worship of the sun. But it was Aurelian who sought to unify the various solar cults under a single religious cultus, that of Sol Invictus.

The problem here is that Christians had already been discussing the timing of Christ's birth well before any of this. There were several theories, the most prominent was that since Christ was perfect His life must be perfect, and thus He died on the same day that He had either been conceived or born. It was already well accepted in the early Church that Jesus had been crucified on a March 25th, and so it was proposed that He must have either been born on March 25th or conceived on March 25th. Those who argued for His conception on March 25th simply added nine months to get the birth date of December 25th. As such those who favored December 25th were doing so by calculating around March 25th (this is also why, later on, March 25th became the Feast of the Annunciation).

Of course this wasn't the only idea. It was also common in the ancient Church to use the already established celebration of Epiphany (January 6th) to celebrate Christ's birth. This is why, even today, the Armenian Apostolic Church (the ancient and historic Church of Armenia) celebrates Christmas on January 6th, not December 25th.

Adding to all this is that while our earliest record for Christmas on an official calendar is the Philocalian Calendar of 354 (aka the Chronograph of 354), this also happens to be the earliest mention of the Pagan Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. Keeping in mind that in 354 while Christianity had already been made legal by the Edict of Toleration and the Edict of Milan, the Roman Empire was still very much a pluralistic society, though one in which Christians were increasingly given preferential treatment under the Constantinian Dynasty (granted, this was turbulent itself given the frequent imperial favor of the Arians over the Nicenes).

It is therefore simply unclear whether Christian Christmas or Pagan Dies Natalis come first, but it is clear that Christians were already discussing these things well before the Cult of Sol Invictus had been established. What is unclear is whether the settled date of December 25th was in response to Paganism (in order to try and quench Pagan practice and encourage Christian practice) or is entirely indepentant. I suspect the truth is probably somewhere between the two--it would have been beneficial for those interested in trying to emphasize Christianity and squash Paganism in the Roman Empire to replace Pagan things with Christian things. But this wasn't happening in a vacuum, it was something Christians were already doing anyway--nothing new is being introduced.


So what about Christmas trees? The earliest Christmas trees date to the late 16th century in Germany, and usually associated with early Protestants, especially Martin Luther. The actual origins of the Christmas tree is difficult to pinpoint, but--again--pagan origin is tenuous conjecture at best. There's not much similarity between the Christmas tree and the sacred oaks of the ancient Pagan Saxons--and there are hundreds of years between the two. Any connection between the two is absolutely tenuous.

Santa Claus is, as has been discussed throughout this thread, a modern amalgam of various traditions and folklore that are derived from St. Nicolas of Myra; most of American Santa folklore is very modern in fact--and we've done a pretty good job of commercializing and exporting that elsewhere in the world.

Gift-giving was traditionally associated with the Feast of St. Nicolas, though winter time gift giving has been common for a long time. This is something that can be said to have legitimate Pagan origins, as while Saturnalia ceased to be celebrated in the late Roman Empire, people did continue to give gifts. With St. Nicolas' Feast Day being placed on December 6th, and given Nicolas' renown generosity as a gift-giver, this custom stuck around for a long time.

Why hang stockings? Well originally Dutch children placed their shoes outside by the front door, so that Sinterklass (St. Nicolas) could put a gold coin (a Dutch guilder) in them. This practice came to North America through the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam, which was renamed New York after the English took it over. Santa Claus started coming down chimneys, instead of through the front door, an image made popular Clement Clarke Moore's 1823 poem, A Visit From St. Nicolas, aka 'Twas the Night Before Christmas.

The truth is ultimately that Christmas began as a Christian celebration of Christ's birth. And it has continued to be that throughout the centuries.

Christmas trees, giving gifts, Santa Claus, etc are all, at the very worst, harmless and benign fluff that adds a little fun and jolliness to our lives.

So this Christmas season as a Christian one has two choices:

Celebrate Jesus, enjoy the time you can spend with friends and family. Drink the eggnog, sing some carols, smile, laugh, and remember that God loves us.

Or go around saying "bah, humbug!", ignore Jesus, and try and suck all the joy, fun, and liveliness from people.

I know what the right choice to make is, and it's not the second one.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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That's nice. Dress like a clown to expose that the clown is a fraud.
That kind of playing with the facts shows how much they have to be altered in order just to make your thesis seem plausible--not correct, but just not completely ridiculous.
 
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dad

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No, just a person dressed as a 4th century Christian clergyman explaining who the real St. Nicholas was and what he did in order to present an alternative to the magic pagan tradition turned him into.
I don't think they know how Santa came to be a story according to many sites, he was probably a blend of Christian and pagan stories. So it wasn't just some 'clergy'. Stories about that clegyman include him raising three kids chopped to pieces back to life. They also include him guiding sailors, and popping into Constantine's dreams to tell him what to do! The one part of what Nickolas is said to have done that I see relating to Santa (not climbing down chimneys, flying on horses or reindeer, or living in the north pole, or having magic elves, or etc) is that he was said to have been generous to children. That is fine. If someone wants to bring out that aspect (while explaining that the sainthood baloney was nonsense, and almost nothing about the real man and his works is actually known) well, fine. Long as they explain up front that the guy dressed a Santa is an actor and there is no real Santa, and don't waste much time on the foolish myth.
 
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dad

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That kind of playing with the facts shows how much they have to be altered in order just to make your thesis seem plausible--not correct, but just not completely ridiculous.
Santa is playing with anything but facts. I have no thesis about silly myths that try to steal the show and take away from the meaning of Christmas. As I pointed out with a link, one site had a good summary of it in saying that Santa is a blend of pagan and Christian stories.

And, no, I would not respect the idea of wasting time dressing as Santa, just to promote the idea that so called saints supposedly did certain things, many of which could be made up nonsense (such as raising up 3 chopped to pieces kids to life). Why not teach what Christ actually did, and why He came and what it means to kids?
 
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dad

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Christmas trees, giving gifts, Santa Claus, etc are all, at the very worst, harmless and benign fluff that adds a little fun and jolliness to our lives.

Not really. If worthless time wasting myths replace Christ as the focus of the reason for the season, tat is harmful. The focus on gift giving has had some harmful effects as well on many people. The pressure to give gifts has put many millions of people over the years into debt. The many kids who were actually deceived into thinking Santa was real had their foundations shaken when they found out they were lied to. No one needs Odin or Thor or some supposed saint to have jolliness! People would be a lot more happy thinking about the real meaning of Christ and His birthday! Even when faced with the non stop barrage of Santa mania commercialism and time wasting, bank busting gift gluttony, people that know the truth can have as much jolliness and more as anyone else!
In a mall, a child that knows Santa is a joke and not real can have as much fun as the rest of the kids.
 
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Albion

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Santa is playing with anything but facts. I have no thesis about silly myths that try to steal the show and take away from the meaning of Christmas.
I like that you've backed down from many of your claims as this thread has moved along, but I hope we now are not moving into an equally torturous series of posts trying to argue that they weren't asserted in the first place.
:sigh:
 
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Speedwell

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Not really. If worthless time wasting myths replace Christ as the focus of the reason for the season, tat is harmful. The focus on gift giving has had some harmful effects as well on many people. The pressure to give gifts has put many millions of people over the years into debt. The many kids who were actually deceived into thinking Santa was real had their foundations shaken when they found out they were lied to. No one needs Odin or Thor or some supposed saint to have jolliness! People would be a lot more happy thinking about the real meaning of Christ and His birthday! Even when faced with the non stop barrage of Santa mania commercialism and time wasting, bank busting gift gluttony, people that know the truth can have as much jolliness and more as anyone else!
In a mall, a child that knows Santa is a joke and not real can have as much fun as the rest of the kids.
You're no fun at all. You must have really been hurt somehow over this Santa Claus business to take the Santa Clown so much more seriously than anyone else does. I don't even want to think about what your take on the evil and satanic Frosty the Snowman would be.
 
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Rajni

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For the record, back when I was a practicing Christian, we
didn't tell our children that Santa was real, though he was
still incorporated into the Christmas theme. The emphasis
was on Jesus, and for several years we even had a
birthday-cake to celebrate Jesus's birthday. Other
Christians we knew were vehemently opposed to the fact
that we didn't tell the kids that Santa was real. I found that
rather surprising, personally. I had thought the reasons for
not doing so were obvious.

But it seemed that people thought kids just absolutely could
*not* enjoy Christmas if they didn't think Santa was real,
totally underestimating kids' ability to enjoy the season just
as much without it. As though a lie (let's face it -- that's
what it would've been) were an absolute requirement for our
kids to appreciate that time of year. Oh ye of little faith...
or something! :D

Nowadays, my feeling is hey, do what you want. If anything,
just say "no" to the stress that comes with celebrating this
time of year. I've come to dislike it, myself. After Halloween,
it's all downhill until Spring. I'm sure it's just a phase, though.


-
-
 
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dad

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I like that you've backed down from many of your claims as this thread has moved along, but I hope we now are not moving into an equally torturous series of posts trying to argue that they weren't asserted in the first place.
:sigh:
Let's not exaggerate. I am not backing down from the position that the foolish fables of Santa is not the real meaning of Christmas, or the Christmas Spirit, or distracting from the reason for the season. The few similarities with the almost fictional saint Nickolaus (most of the stories I read are rumors and foolish nonsense about his exploits) The point remains that the Santa story is a fusion of pagan and Christian origin. The point remains that is is not wise to lie to children that he exists as a real person, and not wise to waste time replacing the real meanings of Christmas with the santa nonsense.
 
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dad

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You're no fun at all. You must have really been hurt somehow over this Santa Claus business to take the Santa Clown so much more seriously than anyone else does. I don't even want to think about what your take on the evil and satanic Frosty the Snowman would be.
Like evolution, I can understand why pagans would lie to their kids and deceive them and be deceived about other pit based fables such as the easter bunny or santa. What I still find somewhat hard to believe is how christians would join in the darkness.
 
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dad

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For the record, back when I was a practicing Christian, we
didn't tell our children that Santa was real, though he was
still incorporated into the Christmas theme. The emphasis
was on Jesus, and for several years we even had a
birthday-cake to celebrate Jesus's birthday. Other
Christians we knew were vehemently opposed to the fact
that we didn't tell the kids that Santa was real. I found that
rather surprising, personally. I had thought the reasons for
not doing so were obvious.

But it seemed that people thought kids just absolutely could
*not* enjoy Christmas if they didn't think Santa was real,
totally underestimating kids' ability to enjoy the season just
as much without it. As though a lie (let's face it -- that's
what it would've been) were an absolute requirement for our
kids to appreciate that time of year. Oh ye of little faith...
or something! :D

Nowadays, my feeling is hey, do what you want. If anything,
just say "no" to the stress that comes with celebrating this
time of year. I've come to dislike it, myself. After Halloween,
it's all downhill until Spring. I'm sure it's just a phase, though.


-
-
Seems like a sane approach. Obsessive fable mongering seems unhealthy to me.
 
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Speedwell

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Like evolution, I can understand why pagans would lie to their kids and deceive them and be deceived about other pit based fables such as the easter bunny or santa. What I still find somewhat hard to believe is how christians would join in the darkness.
"When I was small I believed in Santa Claus
Though I knew it was my dad
And I would hang up my stocking at Christmas
Open my presents and I'd be glad"
--The Kinks Father Christmas
 
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dad

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"When I was small I believed in Santa Claus
Though I knew it was my dad
And I would hang up my stocking at Christmas
Open my presents and I'd be glad"
--The Kinks Father Christmas
Good for you. Too bad so many kids are deceived though.
 
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Albion

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Seems like a sane approach. Obsessive fable mongering seems unhealthy to me.
I'm waiting until we hear from someone who refuses to mislead a child in the case of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and also never fails to tell the whole and exact truth to their kids about every other fact of life. I have yet to meet such a person.
 
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mama2one

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I have yet to meet such a person.

moi

no Santa & I answer every question about God, sex, boys, etc that child asks & have gotten some doozies!

if she has the question, she deserves the answer

ask me a question & I'll tell you the truth
if you don't want the truth, don't ask me!
 
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dad

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I'm waiting until we hear from someone who refuses to mislead a child in the case of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and also never fails to tell the whole and exact truth to their kids about every other fact of life. I have yet to meet such a person.
Irrelevant. A deception of such epic proportions as saying Santa is real is not like not telling them about the birds and bees when too young. Nor is it like not telling them all the horrible world news you may have heard on the tv last night when they were sleeping.
 
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dad

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Are they? Or do they just like stories?
They are totally deceived and actually think Santa is real in many cases. Deliberately deceived by parents and teachers. Reinforced in many movies and even weather reports...etc. You seem to think that some nommie church (the kind of church that seems worried about manpleasing to the extent they accept evolution, lgbt agenda, Santa and anything else the world spits their way) wasting a good part of a day on Santa misinformation correction rather than teaching about Jesus justifies the existence of the Santa obsession/compulsion in society as a whole. [not that the particular church you reference is necessarily like the ones spoken about above in all ways...in apostasy]
 
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Albion

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moi

no Santa & I answer every question about God, sex, boys, etc that child asks & have gotten some doozies!
If you say so, then I have no reason to disbelieve you. However, this marks you as a very rare person in this respect, and yet it is not at all unusual to encounter a person who insists upon telling their 4year old that there is no Santa but does not also tell that child all of the ugly and/or embarrassing facts of life, usually explaining that the kid is too young to understand the real answer or that it would unnerve them.
 
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