Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

jgr

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This text is not Bible.
"Israel of God" is an expression that figures only once in the Bible.

From the Greek:

c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WH marginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16, and often in Greek writings


The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)
by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.
 
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thomas_t

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Hi J,

From the Greek:c. it joins to partitive words the general notion; so that it is equivalent to and in general, and in a word, in short: ὁ Πέτρος καί οἱ ἀπόστολοι, Acts 5:29; οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς (καί οἱ πρεσβύτεροι Rec.) καί τό συνέδριον ὅλον, Matthew 26:59; καί δικαιώμασι σαρκός, Hebrews 9:10 Rec. Tr brackets WH marginal reading; καί ἐπί τόν Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 6:16, and often in Greek writings


The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)
by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.
Keras wants to omit the καί (="and") in Gal 6:16.
In a sense that it sounds "peace and mercy be upon them, [who are] the Israel of God." However, this is just his invention. The text says: "peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."
Acts 5:29, for instance, has a normal translation of καί. "Peter and the Apostles". So does Matthew 26:59 - "the Highpriests and the whole council". Note the Highpriests and the council weren't identical groups. You can't omit the καί. When Keras says Christians are the "Israel of God", he omits they καί and the text is altered.
Hi Keras;
it says those who follow the Way of Jesus are the Israel of God.
... in your imagination only.;)
This is made clear in Romans 2:29
Romans 2:29 only says it takes more to be an inward Jew. It doesn't talk about Jesus.
an overcomer for God. Very simple; every faithful Christian. Jew and Gentile.
Christias can be overcomers as much as they want... the name "Israel" is taken, forever.
I'm sure Hebrew offers other vocabulary, too. They don't have only one word for Christians.
There is only ONE elect group of people.
That's your assumtion. "John 17:20-23", for instance, doesn't rule out that there are two elected groups.

Hi William,
I beg to differ. There are no prophecies for modern, secular, political [...] Israel.
of course there is. Romans 11:28 talks about enemies of the Gospel. It's them. It's a prophecy.

Regards,
Thomas
 
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keras

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That's your assumtion. "John 17:20-23", for instance, doesn't rule out that there are two elected groups.
So your belief, T, is that anyone who wants to call themselves an Israeli Jew, is automatically one of God's Elect people.
All those wannabe people who have emigrated to Israel , no matter their skin color, or religious beliefs, are the Chosen ones?

This idea is so far from the teachings of Jesus, that I have to wonder where you get such notions.
 
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thomas_t

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Hi Keras,
So your belief, T, is that anyone who wants to call themselves an Israeli Jew, is automatically one of God's Elect people.
no, as clarified by Romans 2:29, you need to be an inward Jew in order to really be Jewish.
Honestly, I don't know what that is. Maybe it means keeping the feasts such as Passover and having communion with the other Jews, go to the Synagogue an so on.
But my Jewish fellow posters certainly know better what it really takes to be an inward Jew.

All those wannabe people who have emigrated to Israel , no matter their skin color, or religious beliefs, are the Chosen ones?
as I said, I think there are several entities chosen by God.
Christians are chosen. Moreover, Jewish Israel also.

Best regards,
Thomas
 
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keras

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as I said, I think there are several entities chosen by God.
Christians are chosen. Moreover, Jewish Israel also.
Here is the truth about Jewish Israel;
The Jews are of many racial origins:
1. THE ASHKENAZIM JEWS

Some claim a link between Edom and the Khazars, but apart from that there is more than one identity calling themselves “Jews”; none of these have proper claim to the name ‘Israel’.. Regarding the Ashkenazim Jews who speak Yiddish, most dictionaries and encyclopaedia define Ashkenazim in words like after ‘Ashkenaz’, the second son of Gomer. This confirms Scripture concerning the sons of Noah, [Shem, Japheth and Ham], and their offspring:

2. THE KHAZAR JEWS

The Khazars claimed descent from Japheth, and from their adoption of Judaism, they became known as Jews. But they did not descend from Shem, and therefore they are not Semitic in origin. To relate the term “anti-Semitism” to Jews of this origin is nonsense and part of the great deception! Eastern European Jews of this origin have no Israelite connection. Anti-Semitism could not apply to them! These are the majority in the Israeli state.

3. THE SEPHARDIM JEWS

The American People’s Encyclopaedia, 1925, indicates that these people descended from Edomites who were cast out of Palestine by Prince Titus in AD 70. From thence they spread to North Africa and to Spain converting Berber Tribes and others to Judaism. There were Cardinals and Popes who were Sephardim Jews. They have no simple blood line, being Edomites diluted with Syrian, Canaanite, Phoenician and North African blood.

4. THE SEPHARDIM / ASHKENAZIM JEWISH MIXTURE

It is impossible to determine the degree of intermarriage between these two groups of non-Israelites, but there is evidence that this has been common.

5. THE ETHIOPIAN DESCENDANTS OF HAM [The Falashas]

These are known as “Jews” because of acceptance of Judaism. The Encyclopaedia Judaica states:
'The joke here is that Ham, as a son of Noah, was not a black man'.
It is amazing that these people, who are supposed to be the educated and erudite, could make such a stupid statement.

6. BABYLONIAN and PROSELYTE JEWS

In the days of Mordecai and Esther - many who obviously were not of Judah took up Judaism
These are people from almost every race on earth. They became known as Jews because of religious spirit and belief in Judaism.

8. THE SHEMITE DESCENDANTS OF ESAU

These people also known as Edomites and some other names in Scripture. Historically, and Biblically, most of these were made proselytes to Judaism and became known as “Jews”.
Anyone who wants to identify the Jews as “Israel” is not speaking about the true Israel of God, as defined in the Bible. If we have another Israel, we have another gospel. But the same people will insist that Jews of much racial mixture are a single race when they are not.
They want it both ways.

The term Ioudaios [Judean] is wrongly accepted as the “racial” term Ioudas [Jew] when reading the New Testament and is the root of the misunderstanding. The use of the territorial term, Judean, is not a measure of race, although some Israelites were amongst the proselytes to Judaism in Judea.

The word, “Jews”, cannot always be taken in the way that is commonly accepted. Modern international Jewry is primarily of Edomic or Japheth/Ashkenazim or Sephardim origin, and the Jewish Encyclopaedia states that Edom is modern Jewry. Edomites are not Israelites; it was Esau who sold his birthright. The descendants of Japheth cannot be ethnic Israelites. Neither are “Jews” of other races Israelites by race.
Modern Jewry relates to Edom, Zionism, World Government and the Israeli state, but not to Biblical Israel. At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18; Rev 18:6-8

But there is a final twist declared in Encyclopedia Judaica 1971, 10, column 23:

“JEWS BEGAN IN THE 19TH CENTURY TO CALL THEMSELVES HEBREWS AND ISRAELITES IN 1860.

This coincides with the cry, “anti-Semitism”.. If Zionists began so late in history to pretend that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the Israel of God. Ref: A.E.Kennedy
 
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William Lefranc

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Hi J,


Keras wants to omit the καί (="and") in Gal 6:16.
In a sense that it sounds "peace and mercy be upon them, [who are] the Israel of God." However, this is just his invention. The text says: "peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."
Acts 5:29, for instance, has a normal translation of καί. "Peter and the Apostles". So does Matthew 26:59 - "the Highpriests and the whole council". Note the Highpriests and the council weren't identical groups. You can't omit the καί. When Keras says Christians are the "Israel of God", he omits they καί and the text is altered.
Hi Keras;

... in your imagination only.;)
Romans 2:29 only says it takes more to be an inward Jew. It doesn't talk about Jesus.

Christias can be overcomers as much as they want... the name "Israel" is taken, forever.
I'm sure Hebrew offers other vocabulary, too. They don't have only one word for Christians.

That's your assumtion. "John 17:20-23", for instance, doesn't rule out that there are two elected groups.

Hi William,
of course there is. Romans 11:28 talks about enemies of the Gospel. It's them. It's a prophecy.

Regards,
Thomas

Ephesians 2:11–3:1 (NET)
11 "Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh—who are called “uncircumcision” by the so-called “circumcision” that is performed on the body by human hands
12 that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility,
15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace,
16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near,
18 so that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer foreigners and noncitizens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household,

20 because you have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.
21 In him, the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

If you don't understand this passage, I will explain further. By the way, John 17:20-23 reveals that all believers regardless of who they are or where they come from have been made one people in the Trinity.

God has always had one people only. Nothing changed in the NT because both groups (OT and NT) lived by faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6).

JESUS PLUS NOTHING.jpg
 
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jgr

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Hi T,

no, as clarified by Romans 2:29, you need to be an inward Jew in order to really be Jewish.
Honestly, I don't know what that is. Maybe it means keeping the feasts such as Passover and having communion with the other Jews, go to the Synagogue an so on.
But my Jewish fellow posters certainly know better what it really takes to be an inward Jew.

Isn't the answer within Romans 2:29?

"...circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Feasts, synagogue, etc. are conspicuously absent.

as I said, I think there are several entities chosen by God.
Christians are chosen. Moreover, Jewish Israel also.

What characteristics do Christians possess that qualify them as chosen by God?

Would those characteristics not be faith and obedience in and to His Son?

What other characteristics would anyone, e.g. Jewish Israel, possess, that God would accept as substitutes for faith and obedience in and to His Son?
 
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thomas_t

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Hi J,
I agree: circumcision in the heart makes a Jew. Jew - not a Christian ;).
Would those characteristics not be faith and obedience in and to His Son?
Yeah that's for Christians.
Meanwhile, all Israel is chosen for the sake of the forefathers, see Romans 11:28. Christians can't be meant in this verse. As you say, Christians qualify through faith meaning that they don't need any other reason to be chosen. Faith is enough - no forefathers needed.
--
Hi William,
without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6).
did I say that current Israel pleasaes God? no.
Ironically, you even cite Ephesians 2:14. Two groups are mentioned: Israel (Eph. 2:12) AND the faithful gentiles (Eph 2:11). So these groups can't overlap. If they did they weren't two (different) groups. Very simple, isn't it?
--
Hi Keras,
Here is the truth about Jewish Israel;
The Jews are of many racial origins:
It is no mystery that the forefathers sometimes had wives from other peoples. Moses had one, for instance. So Bible already indicates: they are from many racial origins. Whether your points 1-8 are right or not is irrelvant, I think. Anyway, it is the circumcision of the heart that determines who is truely a Jew, says Romans 2:29.
If Zionists began so late in history to pretend that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the Israel of God.
no hoax, they aren't pretending, I think. Jews can call themselves the way they want. You can't write them off - they belong to Israel. They + the lost tribes, whoever they are as of today.
the Jewish Encyclopaedia states that Edom is modern Jewry.
Provide the quote plus the source. So your readers can check if you are inventing. Maybe you misunderstood something.
At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18;
oh, this verse clearly does not mention any Edomite-Jewish association. So again, this is a misrepresentation of scripture.

Regards,
Thomas
 
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jgr

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Meanwhile, all Israel is chosen for the sake of the forefathers

That would be Israelitish universalism.

There were thousands of pedigreed Israelites in the OT that God slew because of unfaithfulness and disobedience.

But they were chosen, so He shouldn't have slain them; and we'll meet them in heaven.

Judas Iscariot was a pedigreed Israelite.

So he was chosen, and we'll meet him in heaven.

Did you forget Joshua's admonition? "Choose you this day whom you will serve".

All Israel did not, and does not, serve the Lord. Therefore, how can all Israel be chosen?
 
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thomas_t

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That would be Israelitish universalism.
no I'm against all sorts of universalism and I think Bible is too... if it's on the individual level.
However, Israel is a group. Romans 11 is about judgement on groups - not individuals.
how can all Israel be chosen?
as a group. The rules for groups differ from the ones for individual persons, I guess,

Regards,
Thomas
 
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jgr

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no I'm against all sorts of universalism and I think Bible is too... if it's on the individual level.
However, Israel is a group. Romans 11 is about judgement on groups - not individuals.

as a group. The rules for groups differ from the ones for individual persons, I guess,

Regards,
Thomas

Hi T,

A group is comprised of its individuals.

The rules for a group apply to each of the individuals within that group.

Which rules in Romans 11 apply to a group, but not to all of the individuals in that group?

Judas was in the group "Israelites". We're told that it's a chosen group, and therefore everyone in it was and is chosen. Would you agree that therefore we'll meet Judas in heaven?
 
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mkgal1

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as a group. The rules for groups differ from the ones for individual persons, I guess,

Regards,
Thomas
We can all agree that this passage - below - is referring to a group, correct? But see how there're requirements for the individuals in order to remain a part of the group?

Genesis 17:10 - thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
 
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William Lefranc

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Hi William,

did I say that current Israel pleasaes God? no.
Ironically, you even cite Ephesians 2:14. Two groups are mentioned: Israel (Eph. 2:12) AND the faithful gentiles (Eph 2:11). So these groups can't overlap. If they did they weren't two (different) groups. Very simple, isn't it?
Regards,
Thomas[/QUOTE]

Current Israel is nothing but a secular, political and ungodly nation just like the rest. Are you willing to stick out your neck for them and state that these people are still chosen without Christ as their Savior and Lord?
JESUS PLUS NOTHING.jpg
 
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thomas_t

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Hi William,
Current Israel is nothing but a secular, political and ungodly nation just like the rest. Are you willing to stick out your neck for them and state that these people are still chosen without Christ as their Savior and Lord?
Yes I do. Germany as a country does not proclaim Christ as savior, either. However, unlike Germany Israel has rockets exploding among them every day fired from Gaza or Lebanon. They listen to anti-semitic rantings from all over the world every day. Do you know a place where Israel is NOT hated?
---
Hi Gal,
We can all agree that this passage - below - is referring to a group, correct? [...]

[...] "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
No, I don't. It says "an uncircumsized male". Singular.
---
Hi J,
A group is comprised of its individuals.

The rules for a group apply to each of the individuals within that group.
There are things only individuals can do - such as believing Jesus. A group, in contrast, can never believe "in their heart" as they don't have one.
On the flip side of the coin, an individual never could manage to integrate even one refugee into society, for instance. A group can.
In short: groups have different tasks to accomplish than individuals. So there must be different rules for groups, I guess.
Let's compare it to soccer. You can't play soccer one on one. Soccer only makes sense played within a group. You can only win the cup if your team wins. Only the score of the team counts. Even if some individual players don't win their tacklings, never score a goal, never get cheered by anyone... you can still win as a team. Germany's team coach Jogi Löw even went as far as to say: he did NOT single out the individually best players to make a team out of them.

Which rules in Romans 11 apply to a group, but not to all of the individuals in that group?

Judas was in the group "Israelites". We're told that it's a chosen group, and therefore everyone in it was and is chosen. Would you agree that therefore we'll meet Judas in heaven?
I'm not an expert in judgement. Judgement is the Lord's.
Personally, I believe you can be unsaved on an individual level - while belonging to a saved group. Let's compare it to Germany and to its wealth. Germany is wealthy (not as wealthy as the US, but quite wealthy though). However, there are many persons who don't profit from its wealth: ill people, forced laborers, refugees waiting for their case to be settled... it's obvious there are miserable people in a rich land.
Being spiritually unsaved in a saved community could be the same.
In my view, Romans 11:26 applies to Israel as a group. Nevertheless, it does not mean "all Jews" on an individual level.

Regards,
Thomas
 
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mkgal1

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We can all agree that this passage - below - is referring to a group, correct? But see how there're requirements for the individuals?

Genesis 17:10 - thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

No, I don't. It says "an uncircumsized male". Singular.
It does say that - that's the requirement for the individuals within the *group* I was referring to.

The passage states one would be cut off from the group by not adhering to that specific requirement that applied to each and every man in the group. IOW - that single outward act of individuals is what identified them as a part of the group they belong to.
 
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parousia70

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So your belief, T, is that anyone who wants to call themselves an Israeli Jew, is automatically one of God's Elect people.
no, as clarified by Romans 2:29, you need to be an inward Jew in order to really be Jewish.
Honestly, I don't know what that is. Maybe it means keeping the feasts such as Passover and having communion with the other Jews, go to the Synagogue an so on.
But thomas, You don't seem to require any evidence before you say to someone who says "I am Biblical Israel", you immediately say "yes I agree you are Israel, you must be, for you say so"

Someone merely makes the claim and "viola", you believe them without question or scrutiny.

(Except of course those people who have pledged their Fidelity and allegiance to, and have become loyal subjects of Israel's King, Jesus Christ, then you say "NO! You loyal subjects of the King of Israel are NOT Israel, it's only those who REJECT the King of Israel who must be counted as Israel")

Curious.

You have a very bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).
YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.
 
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jgr

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In my view, Romans 11:26 applies to Israel as a group. Nevertheless, it does not mean "all Jews" on an individual level.

Hi T,

So what are the scriptural characteristics that differentiate those individuals who are not "all Jews", from those individuals who are "all Jews"?
 
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parousia70

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Hi J,

Meanwhile, all Israel is chosen for the sake of the forefathers, see Romans 11:28. Christians can't be meant in this verse.

If Christians can't be meant in this verse, how is it you can assert that ANY person today who has no verifiable genetic link to any pre-desolation Hebrew person, CAN be meant?
 
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mkgal1

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Personally, I believe you can be unsaved on an individual level - while belonging to a saved group
Look at Romans 11:19-21 (which seems to suggest otherwise):

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.​
 
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