The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
He's talking to believers. Unbelievers won't do this.
So seemingly close, yet so far away.

He spoke the same to the unbelievers in the crowd/ audience/ group - at the same time sometimes, as to the believers.

The unbelievers "won't do this", that is correct. They did not "hear", did not repent, did not get saved, did not follow Jesus in truth to learn from Him, did not get born again (unless later they did?) ,
and the believers did repent, did get saved, did follow Jesus in truth to learn from Him, and did get born again (unless later they did not?) ....
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I notice you are of a denominational sort just as Lutherans and Calvinists are.
Lutherans and Calvinists began came into existence after the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg, and largely as a result of it. They also carried certain ideas about salvation from the rationalistic theology of the Roman Catholic Church which were erred to begin with. The denomination that I'm a member of, not that it can even be called that, has existed since Christ founded it and did not share or agree with certain problematic ideas that developed in the Church of the Romans, and so neither does it share or agree with certain problematic ideas that have developed within other, reformed denominations which came to exist as a result of the ideas which became dogmatized by Rome's magisterium. Orthodox means "right way". This pertains to how we live our Lives in Christ, and not merely how we ought to believe. That's all.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
But all men cannot discern the true Christ unless first born again.
Yes, that's right. I think that this is why the Lord commanded His disciples to go out and make disciples of all peoples, teaching them all that He has taught them, and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. So we take this to mean that we must preach the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Who was crucified for our sakes and is risen, ascended into Heaven, glorified with God the Father, Who sent the Holy Spirit to us to give us all grace, and is coming again in glory at the end of time to judge all the living and the dead, and we will Live Eternally in His Holy Kingdom. We believe these things in our hearts and confess them with our tongues, and we strive with the help of grace given us by the Holy Spirit to live and do all those things that our Lord so wants us to do, so that we may have greater and greater abundance of grace and Life in Him, and hence we are saved. We teach others to believe also, so that they too may be born again. This seems so simple to us, and so utterly essential. We can't understand why so many have succeeded in making faith so complicated that children would not be able to get it. We are just simple children in here, where I am. God is big and we are small, and this is inexpressibly wonderful to me.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lutherans and Calvinists began came into existence after the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg, and largely as a result of it. They also carried certain ideas about salvation from the rationalistic theology of the Roman Catholic Church which were erred to begin with. The denomination that I'm a member of, not that it can even be called that, has existed since Christ founded it and did not share or agree with certain problematic ideas that developed in the Church of the Romans, and so neither does it share or agree with certain problematic ideas that have developed within other, reformed denominations which came to exist as a result of the ideas which became dogmatized by Rome's magisterium. Orthodox means "right way". This pertains to how we live our Lives in Christ, and not merely how we ought to believe. That's all.
Weren't they both Augustinians?
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Weren't they both Augustinians?
We believe they were influenced by some Augustine's ideas. Some of Augustine's speculative writing wasn't accepted into the mind of the Church I'm a member of. His view of original sin, for example, doesn't fit in with Orthodoxy, so it has been rejected.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We believe they were influenced by some Augustine's ideas. Some of Augustine's speculative writing wasn't accepted into the mind of the Church I'm a member of. His view of original sin, for example, doesn't fit in with Orthodoxy, so it has been rejected.
But the Reformers didn't reject it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, they didn't, it's one of the things that they carried over from Romanism into their own theological constructs, among other things.
But those who rejected the Council of Ephesus were called heretics. The Reformers agreed to it.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
But those who rejected the Council of Ephesus were called heretics. The Reformers agreed to it.
In those times during which the Church was addressing the errors of Pelagianism, the Latins had emphasized the guilt rather than its punishment, as the chief characteristic of original sin, the Greeks on the other hand (even John Chrysostom) laid greater stress on the punishment than on the guilt.

It is still this way today, because the Orthodox Church does not agree with the Latin (Roman Catholic) belief about original sin. Orthodox Tradition sees Roman Catholicism's emphasis on guilt, which even goes so far as to express the dogmatic concept of original guilt (wherein all of Adam's offspring are guilty of his personal sin) to be erroneous. Orthodox Tradition regards Augustine as a saved believer (saint) but solidly rejects any suggestions in his writings which point to the personal guilt of Adam being transmitted sexually to all of his offspring. In Orthodox Church Tradition believers are permitted to be incorrect in their thinking sometimes, and not be regarded as heretics. Blessed Augustine is a prime example.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In those times during which the Church was addressing the errors of Pelagianism, the Latins had emphasized the guilt rather than its punishment, as the chief characteristic of original sin, the Greeks on the other hand (even John Chrysostom) laid greater stress on the punishment than on the guilt.

It is still this way today, because the Orthodox Church does not agree with the Latin (Roman Catholic) belief about original sin. Orthodox Tradition sees Roman Catholicism's emphasis on guilt, which even goes so far as to express the dogmatic concept of original guilt (wherein all of Adam's offspring are guilty of his personal sin) to be erroneous. Orthodox Tradition regards Augustine as a saved believer (saint) but solidly rejects any suggestions in his writings which point to the personal guilt of Adam being transmitted sexually to all of his offspring. In Orthodox Church Tradition believers are permitted to be incorrect in their thinking sometimes, and not be regarded as heretics. Blessed Augustine is a prime example.
So who are the heretics?
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So who are the heretics?
Those who state as their church doctrine that the guilt of Adam is sexually transmitted in the conception of all humans are heretics. Those who state as their Church doctrine that all are afflicted with existence in a creation which is fallen from grace (due to Adam's sin), so that all are afflicted with consequences of Adam's sin, and become sinners as a consequence, are not expressing a heretical doctrine regarding this particular matter.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Those who state as their church doctrine that the guilt of Adam is sexually transmitted in the conception of all humans are heretics. Those who state as their Church doctrine that all are afflicted with existence in a creation which is fallen from grace (due to Adam's sin), so that all are afflicted with consequences of Adam's sin, and become sinners as a consequence, are not expressing a heretical doctrine regarding this particular matter.
According to the Ecumenical Creeds, all who do not embrace them are the heretics.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
According to the Ecumenical Creeds, all who do not embrace them are the heretics.
The Ecumenical Council of Ephesus did not define original sin as it was defined through doctrinal development in later Roman Catholic circles at a much later time, by scholastic theologians who took the speculative errors of St. Augustine and expounded them into Western Church doctrines.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Ecumenical Council of Ephesus did not define original sin as it was defined through doctrinal development in later Roman Catholic circles at a much later time, by scholastic theologians who took the speculative errors of St. Augustine and expounded them into Western Church doctrines.
The Reformers corrected this.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Those that say man has no free will do so of their own free will, which they deny having.
Or, (yes, with free will men can say that),
but men who are slaves of sin also say that there is no free will (which is true for them - they are apparently or obviously slaves of sin still)....
 
Upvote 0