Who is the woman in Revelation 12 poll

DavidPT · Nov 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I voted for "other" because of how "Israel" and "Church" were two separate answers - when I see them as the same thing. IOW....as @Jonaitis mentioned, I believe it's the True Israel referred to in Rev 12.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the woman---she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Isn't verse 17 meaning during a time, and times, and half a time? How can the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---not be meaning the church?

And if it is meaning the church, and that the woman is also meaning the church, and that the woman is meaning Israel, why is part of the church nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent---while the other part of the church, those in verse 17, have to face the wrath of the serpent head on?

mkgal1 · Nov 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the woman---she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Isn't verse 17 meaning during a time, and times, and half a time? How can the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---not be meaning the church?

And if it is, and that Israel is also meaning the church, why is part of the church nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent---while the other part of the church, those in verse 17, have to face the wrath of the serpent head on?

That's a good question - but I don't think we have any way of knowing "why". It was prophesied - and I believe it did happen that way in the first century when those from Judea fled to Pella - but the early church in Asia Minor (if I'm getting my history correct) were persecuted.

From Adam Maarschalk's site: Verse 17: “The dragon became furious with the woman” and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.” Instead of admitting defeat, writes Steve Gregg (p. 276), he “continued his attack against not only the woman (the Jewish church), but also the rest of her offspring (v. 17). This must refer to the Gentiles brought into God’s family through the Jewish remnant church.” Concludes Steve Gregg (p. 276), “The next attack upon the saints will be seen as conducted through Satan’s agents, the two beasts who arise in the next chapter.”

Going back to the previous passage:

Verses 13-16: This is the time, says David Chilton (Gregg, p. 270), when “in obedience to Christ’s commands (Matt. 24:15-28), the Christians escaped to shelter in the caves of the desert.” Steve Gregg continues, “The wings of a great eagle (v. 14) which carry the woman to safety are an echo of the Exodus, in which God told Israel that He had carried them out of Egypt on eagles’ wings (Exodus 19:14). Like the woman in this vision, Israel had been delivered from the dragon (cf. Psalm 74:13-14; Ezek. 32:2) and sustained by God in the wilderness.” Steve Gregg then quotes from Steve Farrer, who adds,

The woman is treated as the congregation of Israel, saved from Egypt, lifted by the Lord on eagles’ pinions and brought to Sinai. The dragon’s pursuit of her by throwing a waterflood after her is a generalized image for the action of Pharaoh, who [1] commands Israelite children and especially Moses to be washed down the Nile, [2] comes out after escaping Israel with a host, and [3] counts on the Red Sea to shut Israel in.

However, “Satan’s attempt to destroy the Church” in the first century was no more successful than Pharaoh’s attempt to wipe out the Israelites in his day, because “the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth” (verse 16). David Chilton (Gregg, p. 274) sees this verse as suggesting that, with the woman (God’s faithful remnant) gone from Jerusalem/Judea/Galilee, “the land of Israel swallows up the river of wrath, absorbing the blow in her place.” This principle of God looking out for His people was to be true not only in the first century, but also throughout the centuries even up to our own time, as God sustains His people in the midst of persecutions of all kinds. This is not to say that believers will be spared from suffering and death–and we do know that a tremendous number of believers have been martyred during the last century–but this is to say that God walks with His people through the fiercest of trials and sustains His people even when the enemy strikes his hardest.
~ Revelation Chapter 12

zoidar · Nov 20, 2019

Douggg said:
Please check one...

Israel
The Church
Other

What is the reason you didn't put virgin Mary as an alternative in the poll? Many believe the woman is Mary.

DavidPT · Nov 20, 2019

zoidar said:
What is the reason you didn't put virgin Mary as an alternative in the poll? Many believe the woman is Mary.

Revelation 12:2 And she(Mary) being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:5 And she(Mary) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman(Mary) fled into the wilderness, where she(Mary) hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her(Mary) there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman(Mary) which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman(Mary) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she(Mary) might fly into the wilderness, into her(Mary) place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman(Mary), that he might cause her(Mary) to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman(Mary), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Mary), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

While verse 2 and 5 appear to make sense if meaning Mary, none of the other verses appear to make sense if meaning Mary. Why would anyone think the woman can be meaning Mary when Mary couldn't possibly fit verse 6, and verses 13-17?

If you still insist the woman is meaning Mary, regardless, then show with Scripture how and when Mary ever fulfilled verse 6, and verses 13-17.

zoidar · Nov 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Revelation 12:2 And she(Mary) being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:5 And she(Mary) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman(Mary) fled into the wilderness, where she(Mary) hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her(Mary) there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman(Mary) which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman(Mary) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she(Mary) might fly into the wilderness, into her(Mary) place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman(Mary), that he might cause her(Mary) to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman(Mary), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Mary), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

While verse 2 and 5 appear to make sense if meaning Mary, none of the other verses appear to make sense if meaning Mary. Why would anyone think the woman can be meaning Mary when Mary couldn't possibly fit verse 6, and verses 13-17?

If you still insist the woman is meaning Mary, regardless, then show with Scripture how and when Mary ever fulfilled verse 6, and verses 13-17.

I didn't say it is Mary, just that the alternative should be in the poll since it's a common belief.

keras · Nov 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
That's a good question - but I don't think we have any way of knowing "why". It was prophesied - and I believe it did happen that way in the first century when those from Judea fled to Pella - but the early church in Asia Minor (if I'm getting my history correct) were persecuted.

Daniel 11:32 plainly tells us why the Church is divided into those two groups. Also referred to in Isaiah 28:14-15.

Did the Mount of Olives split into two in 70 AD? No, and the future division of the Christians is a lesson for us to strongly hold onto our faith and trust in the Lord always.

As for the commentators, it was impossible for them to know the prophetic truths, as that was hidden from them Matthew 11:25 and Daniel 12:4 says the Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end.

Benjamin Holliday · Nov 20, 2019

Israel and the Church are one. They are those who follow God's commandments whether one is a physical descendant of Israel or not. The 1260 days are actually years based on Ezekiel 4's ratio of prophetic to real time and those 1260 years are based on an idealistic lunar calendar of 360 days/year. When you do the math they are 1241.889117 solar years and have already happened with Catholicisms rule over the world.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 20, 2019

Common mistake. There are some Promises TO ISRAEL, not to Ekklesia.
There are some Promises to Ekklesia, that are not TO ISRAEL.

The dark ages will end when Jesus Returns.

Ricky M · Nov 20, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Seems to me it is Israel, but I am not called to interpret end times prophecy...

How refreshingly honest - I thought everyone here was an expert on everything

!

Ricky M · Nov 20, 2019

It's been a while since I studied this and the details are a little foggy at the moment, but I've heard arguments made before that the woman is the Bride of Christ.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Isn't verse 17 meaning during a time, and times, and half a time? How can the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---not be meaning the church?

It could much more readily mean the Ekklesia.

DavidPT · Nov 20, 2019

zoidar said:
I didn't say it is Mary, just that the alternative should be in the poll since it's a common belief.

My bad. Unfortunately I assumed wrong. I wrongly assumed you included yourself among the many who believe the woman to be meaning Mary. But for those who do think it's actually meaning Mary though, they would need to show how Mary fits verse 6, and verses 13-17. I don't see how they could possibly do that. That should mean the woman is meaning Mary is debunked.

mkgal1 · Nov 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
How can the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ---not be meaning the church?

I believe that IS referring to the early church - but what I posted earlier was that the poll answers (IMO) make a distinction where I don't believe there should be one. IOW.....the "remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Christ Jesus" came from Old Testament Israel (so the woman is BOTH "Israel" and the "Church" that came from Her - as I'm understanding it).

From Steve Gregg’s book, Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary). Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nashville, 1997. Pp. 252-276]

Glossary of Terms:

Woman = [1] Old Testament Israel (i.e. the faithful remnant among the Israelites); and [2] later God’s people, the remnant among the nations, after Christ’s death and resurrection

DavidPT · Nov 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
the "remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Christ Jesus" came from Old Testament Israel (so the woman is BOTH "Israel" and the "Church" that came from Her - as I'm understanding it).

For the most part I get what you are saying here. In many ways it makes sense how you are understanding it. Yet, many of us tend to think Revelation 12:17 is fulfilled in the end of this age during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. Some even conclude satan hasn't been cast to the earth yet. Assuming that position, that would mean the woman is still in the picture when satan gets cast to the earth since that's who he initially sets out to persecute. Then when that fails, while she is being nourished from the face of the serpent, the serpent then sets out to make war with the remnant of her seed.

mkgal1 · Nov 20, 2019

keras said:
Did the Mount of Olives split into two in 70 AD? No, and the future division of the Christians is a lesson for us to strongly hold onto our faith and trust in the Lord always.

The reference to the Mount of Olives splitting is apocalyptic literature that runs throughout the Old Testament. Like these references:

"For behold, the Lord is coming forth from His place. He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place." (Micah 1:3-4)

"He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual mountains were shattered, the ancient hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting." (Hab. 3:6)

Language like this is a symbol of God waging war against His enemies and delivering His saints.

zoidar · Nov 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
My bad. Unfortunately I assumed wrong. I wrongly assumed you included yourself among the many who believe the woman to be meaning Mary. But for those who do think it's actually meaning Mary though, they would need to show how Mary fits verse 6, and verses 13-17. I don't see how they could possibly do that. That should mean the woman is meaning Mary is debunked.

No problem! I think your post was good. I haven't studied revelation enough to know who the woman is. I'm open for suggestions.

Original Happy Camper · Nov 20, 2019

Douggg said:
Please check one...

Israel
The Church
Other

Spiritual Israel = the Church in the final days = remnant

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

keras · Nov 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The reference to the Mount of Olives splitting is apocalyptic language that runs throughout the Old Testament. Like these references:

If any scripture is an allegory or like a homily and a parable, then a viable explanation should be made for it by those who refuse to believe its literal fulfilment.

Prophesies that CAN be literally fulfilled; WILL be literally fulfilled, the only ones that are allegorical or metaphorical, are the obviously worded ones, that usually are explained later or easily understood for what they mean.

PaulCyp1 · Nov 20, 2019

Obviously the mother of the Savior, Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.

ewq1938 · Nov 20, 2019

The manuscripts do not have chapters or verse numbers so the original would look like this :

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Whoever the woman is, she is alive and on the Earth at the time Satan starts the great tribulation and the GT ends when Christ returns so that means it cannot be the historical Mary. It must be a symbolic woman, most likely some form of Israel...I think "true Israel" or "NT (new covenant) Israel" makes the most sense.

Who is the woman in Revelation 12 poll

Who is the woman in Revelation 12:1-5 who gave birth to the man child?

Israel

The Church

Other

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