THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

nolidad · Nov 18, 2019

ebedmelech said:
If you read properly...John only heard the 144,000. It was when he turned to look that he saw who they were. You see....you just can't take those 6 verses. Verses 9-12 count too:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

This is a common pattern in Revelation John hears something said...then he turns to look and sees what that which he heard represents. The 144,000 represents the fullness of God's people.

So tell me why I should accept your allegorical reinterpretation as more authoritative as say the Catholic allegorical reinterpretation, the Mormon allegorical reinterpretation, the JW allegorical reinterpretation, etc. what makes yours more authoritative as a reinterpretation of Scripture as these others?????

Also John heard from the angel the number and description of those sealed. Then see what Gods Words says (not someones reinterpretation) that after John heard the number from each tribe sealed- He saw a host of gentiles! Those little words "after these things".

Funny that in verses 3-8 God could be very very specific with who and how many and then in "redefining" the angelic announcement as you allege in verses 9-12 God seemed to lose count and forgot who they were? Is that what you are trying to say? He identifies the servants and even says from where and how many from each where, then forgets what He said before? Do you really believe God is that bads with grammar??? do you believe God created grammar so we can communicate?

Also how can we be confident you are talking literally and not being allegorical in your response?

Contenders Edge · Nov 18, 2019

ebedmelech said:
I can't agree that the earth is under the dominion of Satan. That would deny Jesus His full authority given Him by the Father. Satan goes as far as Jesus allows Him to. Just as before Satan was kicked out of heaven after Jesus made His sacfrice for our sins. Earth was the only place for him and he is included in the plan of God.

Jesus has dominion of all things!!!

Then I have this challenge for you: Why is Satan referred to as the prince of this world? Why did Satan claim all the kingdoms of this present world to be his when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness? (Mt. 4:8-10, Lk. 4:5-8)

No one is denying that Jesus has been given full authority and dominion over all things, and Satan is not permitted to do anything beyond what God allows him to, but if Satan has not been permitted by God to retain a degree of control over this present world, then how can he be called the prince of this world?

keras · Nov 18, 2019

nolidad said:
And you got this revelation how??? did God give you a phone call on His hot line?

Funny but if you read the bible without the special eyeglasses-- it is exactly the current stateof Israel, they fit all the criteria- scattered around the world, still in unbelief, brought back to be purged of unbelievers (so I guess to you faithful believers are not real believers)

And on and on. YOu are not quoting Scripture, but someone's private persona interpretation of Scripture!

The Body of Christ does not need special gurus who say they know what God really meant when He inspired these things!

I understand why you cannot allow Israel to be anyone other than the Jewish State of Israel. The truth that Christians are the real Israelites of God, destroys your belief of being 'raptured to heaven', while the Jews go thru Tribulation.
The soon to happen end times events will be a big surprise to you.

The Gog/Magog attack, as described in Ezekiel 38-39, simply doesn't relate to the current peoples living in the holy Land. Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise and the re-population of all the area with only the faithful people of God. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

ebedmelech · Nov 18, 2019

nolidad said:
So tell me why I should accept your allegorical reinterpretation as more authoritative as say the Catholic allegorical reinterpretation, the Mormon allegorical reinterpretation, the JW allegorical reinterpretation, etc. what makes yours more authoritative as a reinterpretation of Scripture as these others?????

Also John heard from the angel the number and description of those sealed. Then see what Gods Words says (not someones reinterpretation) that after John heard the number from each tribe sealed- He saw a host of gentiles! Those little words "after these things".

Funny that in verses 3-8 God could be very very specific with who and how many and then in "redefining" the angelic announcement as you allege in verses 9-12 God seemed to lose count and forgot who they were? Is that what you are trying to say? He identifies the servants and even says from where and how many from each where, then forgets what He said before? Do you really believe God is that bads with grammar??? do you believe God created grammar so we can communicate?

Also how can we be confident you are talking literally and not being allegorical in your response?

Nothings "allegorical". Revelation tells you how it's to be interpreted at verse 1.

ebedmelech · Nov 18, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Then I have this challenge for you: Why is Satan referred to as the prince of this world? Why did Satan claim all the kingdoms of this present world to be his when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness? (Mt. 4:8-10, Lk. 4:5-8)

No one is denying that Jesus has been given full authority and dominion over all things, and Satan is not permitted to do anything beyond what God allows him to, but if Satan has not been permitted by God to retain a degree of control over this present world, then how can he be called the prince of this world?

That's because it was Satan that deceived Eve and Adam in the fall. He's not "the prince of this world" because it belongs to him. That title is given him because of his power over those who are lost and because of his overall. The majority of "the world" is under his power.

Read John 12:27-36 and then Revelation 11:15-19. You answer your own question when you say "Satan is permitted"....that being the case does he rule OR is he allowed to and who does he rule over?

Also, do you recall Luke 10? Or who was defeated at the cross?

Contenders Edge · Nov 19, 2019

ebedmelech said:
That's because it was Satan that deceived Eve and Adam in the fall. He's not "the prince of this world" because it belongs to him. That title is given him because of his power over those who are lost and because of his overall. The majority of "the world" is under his power.

Read John 12:27-36 and then Revelation 11:15-19. You answer your own question when you say "Satan is permitted"....that being the case does he rule OR is he allowed to and who does he rule over?

Also, do you recall Luke 10? Or who was defeated at the cross?

Perhaps now you understand that when I said that as a consequence of the sin of Adam, Satan took dominion over the earth, not because I said it belongs to him, but because God has permitted him to do so for a time and yet can only exercise what power God permits him.

We have lived in a world where Satan roams about seeking to deceive whom he will, take as many souls captive as he can, and wreak as much misery, grief, and destruction as he is allowed to, but we have not yet come into an age where Satan does not exist in this world.

We will come into that world when Christ returns to reign upon the earth and Satan is imprisoned in the abyss. Redemption began with our souls when we placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. Next, our bodies will be redeemed from sin and death. Third, creation will be redeemed from the curse and the wicked influence of Satan who will meet his final end in the lake of fire.

ebedmelech · Nov 19, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Perhaps now you understand that when I said that as a consequence of the sin of Adam, Satan took dominion over the earth, not because I said it belongs to him, but because God has permitted him to do so for a time and yet can only exercise what power God permits him.

We have lived in a world where Satan roams about seeking to deceive whom he will, take as many souls captive as he can, and wreak as much misery, grief, and destruction as he is allowed to, but we have not yet come into an age where Satan does not exist in this world.

We will come into that world when Christ returns to reign upon the earth and Satan is imprisoned in the abyss. Redemption began with our souls when we placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. Next, our bodies will be redeemed from sin and death. Third, creation will be redeemed from the curse and the wicked influence of Satan who will meet his final end in the lake of fire.

Psalm 24.

nolidad · Nov 19, 2019

jgr said:
The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Well I have read all your fancy opinions and aqnd reinterpretations and allegorical thought, but tell me, why should I accept your writing as to the meaning of these verses as the literal meaning of what God was trying to say- instead of just accepting what God said without all the tap dancing you had to do????? Or what makes your reinterpretation more authoritative than other allegorists who differ, the RC Church, Mormons or Jws?

nolidad · Nov 19, 2019

keras said:
I understand why you cannot allow Israel to be anyone other than the Jewish State of Israel. The truth that Christians are the real Israelites of God, destroys your belief of being 'raptured to heaven', while the Jews go thru Tribulation.
The soon to happen end times events will be a big surprise to you.

The Gog/Magog attack, as described in Ezekiel 38-39, simply doesn't relate to the current peoples living in the holy Land. Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise and the re-population of all the area with only the faithful people of God. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

YOu are good at pretending to know what will or will not destroy my belief in Bible truth- but are still just as wrong!

So you belief that part of the faithful church is in blindness then. Rom. 11:25-26

Well I do agree that Israel will be repopulated. what you can't accept is that God keeps His promises! When God says He will do something- He will do it whether it be the church or Israel!

I agree with your Ez. and Is. passages- for whom the Lord spoke them to--the Jews!

Romans 9 is the mystery of the church shown in the New Testament!

So you believe god lied here:

Jeremiah 31:33-40 King James Version (KJV)
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

No matter what kind of Twister game you play- this cannot ever mean the church!

This is a lie according to you as well:

Zechariah 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Why should I accept your or any other allegorists opinion of what God is saying here when what God is saying is clear and said it will happen.

nolidad · Nov 19, 2019

ebedmelech said:
Nothings "allegorical". Revelation tells you how it's to be interpreted at verse 1.

Very allegorical! Where in REv. 1 does it say that verses can say one thing but mean something very different that are clearly not symbolic!

And how do you know that you got it right? Why do you reject all the other reinterpretations of Revelation. what makes yours right?

jgr · Nov 19, 2019

nolidad said:
Well I have read all your fancy opinions and aqnd reinterpretations and allegorical thought, but tell me, why should I accept your writing as to the meaning of these verses as the literal meaning of what God was trying to say- instead of just accepting what God said without all the tap dancing you had to do????? Or what makes your reinterpretation more authoritative than other allegorists who differ, the RC Church, Mormons or Jws?

Feel free to share any Scripture that contradicts and disproves what I've shared.

nolidad · Nov 19, 2019

jgr said:
Feel free to share any Scripture that contradicts and disproves what I've shared.

Already have but let me quote them again!

REv. 7:

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Nothing requires to accept this as anything other than written. It is only a predisposed view that says it is the church- or that the sealing is by the Holy Spirit!

Jer. 31:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Zechariah 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Ezekiel 38 King James Version (KJV)
38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Deuteronomy 30 King James Version (KJV)
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Just notice that as this was written- Israel did not as yet posses the land of their fathers!

Ezekiel 20:33-38 King James Version (KJV)
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Romans 11:25-29 King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Many of you reinterpreters say Israel is the church: so you believe that part of teh obedient faithful church is in blindness. Also who are the gentiles in this?

jgr · Nov 19, 2019

nolidad said:
Already have but let me quote them again!

REv. 7:

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Nothing requires to accept this as anything other than written. It is only a predisposed view that says it is the church- or that the sealing is by the Holy Spirit!

Jer. 31:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Zechariah 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Ezekiel 38 King James Version (KJV)
38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Deuteronomy 30 King James Version (KJV)
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Just notice that as this was written- Israel did not as yet posses the land of their fathers!

Ezekiel 20:33-38 King James Version (KJV)
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Romans 11:25-29 King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Many of you reinterpreters say Israel is the church: so you believe that part of teh obedient faithful church is in blindness. Also who are the gentiles in this?

Explain what contradicts and disproves what I've shared, and how.

keras · Nov 19, 2019

nolidad said:
YOu are good at pretending to know what will or will not destroy my belief in Bible truth- but are still just as wrong!
No matter what kind of Twister game you play- this cannot ever mean the church!

Why should I accept your or any other allegorists opinion of what God is saying here when what God is saying is clear and said it will happen.

Despite your lengthy Bible quotes, you fail to prove your beliefs.
What you don't see, is how Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24. He knew that the House of Judah; the Jews would reject and kill Him, but His disciples took the Gospel to the world and successfully converted mainly the descendants of Israel, still scattered around the world; the Christian peoples. The Jews remain in apostasy and will soon be Judged and punished. Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 22:14

The Church IS Israel, literally the overcomers for God;
Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [wrongly called; Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

jgr · Nov 20, 2019

nolidad said:
Well I have read all your fancy opinions and aqnd reinterpretations and allegorical thought, but tell me, why should I accept your writing as to the meaning of these verses as the literal meaning of what God was trying to say- instead of just accepting what God said without all the tap dancing you had to do????? Or what makes your reinterpretation more authoritative than other allegorists who differ, the RC Church, Mormons or Jws?

Some clues for you.

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John's observations and experiences were of spiritual realities.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation contains a plethora of spiritual symbols.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Spiritual realities necessitate spiritual discernment by the spiritual man.

ebedmelech · Nov 20, 2019

nolidad said:
Very allegorical! Where in REv. 1 does it say that verses can say one thing but mean something very different that are clearly not symbolic!

And how do you know that you got it right? Why do you reject all the other reinterpretations of Revelation. what makes yours right?

No. Not allegorical, it what the passage says. The word John uses for "communicated" is the Greek word "semaino". Look that up and see what it means.

claninja · Nov 20, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
They are not two polar opposite statements. The presence of another Temple would never cancel the words of Jesus. He would still accept our worship all the same regardless of where we worship Him. The Temple is intended to serve as the King's Court and Palace when He returns.

What is the opposite of not worshiping in a temple? Answer: worshiping in a temple

Contenders Edge said:
There are three months between the months of April and August not six. Forty-two months is three and a half years. The duration of the Roman/Jewish war, even with an added thirteenth month, still fell short of the prophesied forty-two months and Jerusalem had been under Gentile occupation for far longer than forty-two months.

I apologize, I put the incorrect dates in. While the Jewish roman war did begin in April of 66ad (Wars of the Jews 2.14.4), that is not when the trampling began. However, April, May, June July, August = 5 months.

1.) Cestius Gallus headed Roman armies and sieged Jerusalem. But for some reason he did not finish the siege and retreated with his armies (Wars of the Jews 2.19.6-7). This occurred around Marhesvan], in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero. (Wars of the Jews 2.19.9).

This is when many Jews fled from the city, or as Josephus put it " After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink". (wars of the Jews 2.20.1)

This fits very well with Jesus' warning in the olivet discourse. When Cestius' armies surrounded Jerusalem, it would only be a couple years until Jerusalem was desolated. It is at this point that many Jews fled the city.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

2.) Josephus reports a woman being struck so hard by a dart that her baby was thrown from the womb (Wars of the Jews 3.7.23). He reports that woman inside jersualem during the siege ate her own baby due to hunger (Wars of the Jews 6.3.4-5)

Additionally, the war with the Jews took place all over the land of Israel (Wars of the Jews 3-4)

This fits very well with Jesus warning of miserable days for nursing mothers and great distress upon the land and against the Jews.

Luke 21:23 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

3.) Josephus records that 1.1 million were killed and 97,000 were sold as slaves (Wars of the Jews 6.9.3)

This fits well that those in Jerusalem would fall by the sword and be led captive into the nations

Luke 24:21a They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations.

4.) Jesus states that Jerusalem would be tramped by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. Revelation states that this time period is 42 months.

Luke 21:24b And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Revelation 11:2 exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Considering the Jewish roman war finished in spring of 73ad, which involved Titus' order to completely level the temple and the city and have legion X stationed in the city, 42 months definitely fits within the time frame of the first Jewish Roman war (66ad to 73ad). unless you believe 42 months is symbolic?

Contenders Edge said:
The river in Ezekiel's vision flows from a building whose dimensions are measured. In the New Jerusalem. It does not flow from a building but from a throne that is not measured.

The temple is the throne of God in the Ezekiel vision. Thus, if the river flows from the temple, it flows from the throne of God.

Ezekiel 4:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever. The house of Israel will never again defile My holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and by the funeral offerings for their kings at their deaths

Ezekiel 47:1 1Then the man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.

Contenders Edge said:
Parables have to be consistent with the heavenly meanings that they are supposed to represent. Ezekiel's vision is not consistent with the New Jerusalem and though there are some similarities between the two, there are also major differences.

not sure what you mean by "they must be consistent". Jesus told a parable about fish being caught with the good being separated from the bad. He also told a parable about weeds being separated from the wheat. Jesus told 2 different stories, with different symbols, that both pointed to the same heavenly meaning. So your "rule" doesn't really make sense as we can in fact have to different stories, with different symbols that point to the same heavenly truth. Thus the Ezekiel temple and the New Jerusalem can both point to the same spiritual truth, despite their difference, and especially because of their similarities.

Contenders Edge said:
With which part?

That scriptures that don't have an explanation or interpretation must be taken literally.

Contenders Edge said:
In Ezekiel's vision, God dwells on the earth in a Temple from which He rules and yet you deny that Christ will rule from a Temple at a time before the coming of the New Jerusalem. Sounds like an argument against Ezekiel to me.

Paul states God already dwells in his temple on earth. Your argument sounds like one against Paul.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them
and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

Ephesians 2:21-22 In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

I don't deny that Christ rules from a temple. I just disagree with what type of temple you are talking about.

nolidad · Nov 20, 2019

jgr said:
Explain what contradicts and disproves what I've shared, and how.

Just read the verses as written. It contradicts your reinterpretations.

nolidad · Nov 20, 2019

keras said:
Despite your lengthy Bible quotes, you fail to prove your beliefs.
What you don't see, is how Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24. He knew that the House of Judah; the Jews would reject and kill Him, but His disciples took the Gospel to the world and successfully converted mainly the descendants of Israel, still scattered around the world; the Christian peoples. The Jews remain in apostasy and will soon be Judged and punished. Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 22:14

For someone who on their avatar says they are writers of bible prophecy studies- you do not even know how biblical terms about Israel are used! So what tribe are you from and how do you know?

keras said:
6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

Well misrepresenting words is inbecoming of you!

Israel was the wife of Jehovah, not HIs bride (there is a difference you know)
And the church is the espoused of Jesus- which makes us his unconsummated bride. Our wedding takes place in heaven .

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The marriage takes place in heaven- and the marriage supper on earth! All the saved from the OT and the time after the rapture are the guests of the wedding supper!

keras said:
9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

Thats right.

We Gentiles are children by faith, not by birth! That was foretold in Gen. 12.

keras said:
5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

WOW!

Isaiah 66 is about scattered Jews from the world coming back.
Peter wrote to Jews scattered
Rev. 5 is about the 24 elders
Rev. 1 yeah could be.

But a new priesthood doesn't make the church Israel nor heirs of the promises God made to the nation of Israel. but partakers of many of the blessings.

keras said:
10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

The new covenant was made with Israel and has yet to be comopleted with them. The church is a partaker not taker over of that covenant!

ROMANS 11:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

See Gods Word with out reinterpretation syas God is not doen with Israel as a people or nation yet (and that means Judah as well)

Ezekiel 37
Ezekiel 37 King James Version (KJV)
37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

nolidad · Nov 20, 2019

jgr said:
Some clues for you.

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John's observations and experiences were of spiritual realities.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation contains a plethora of spiritual symbols.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Spiritual realities necessitate spiritual discernment by the spiritual man.

So once again I ask, why are your "spiritual interpretations" (though you have butchered that word in REv. 1) MORE AUTHORITATIVE than the RC church, other "spiritual interpreters", the mormons, or the Jw's!

I freely acknowledge that Revelation is full of symbols. But I do not need to make lengthy gymnastic explanations to define them. I let the Bible define the symbols (which it so clearly does) all the while using the golden rule of interpretation: "If the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, then seek no other sense!"

Let us look at your verse 20 example! No one needs to pray or seek wisdom to understand what the stars or the candlesticks mean- God tells us right there!

Just because on esees things while in the spirit, doesn't make everything he sees some symbolic event! But you seem to forget that every symbolic thing has a literal event on earth!

THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE OP POST?

Yes

No

I don't know what REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY is

I don't know what SUPERSESSIONISM IS

Does it matter?

Other

I don't know

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