Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Mark Quayle

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I believe in freewill not predestination. I do not believe that God created mankind to be robotic, automatons who can only do what they have been programmed to do.
I don't believe God created mankind to be robotic programmed automatons, either. Apparently the idea of predestination implies that to you. It need not.

Meanwhile, you are denying the authority of Scriptures that specifically reference predestination.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No idea what you're talking about ... none at all.
Do you have any idea what I'm talking about?
I don't remember what you said, to know what you are talking about. If you are references your quote about being a slave to Christ vs slave to sin, yes, I have some idea what you are talking about. I use that very reference to wake people up to the fact they haven't given the term "free will" much thought, when they talk about it.

You are right --we are all slaves to something. But "If the son of man shall set you free, ye shall be free indeed." Being a slave to Christ is the only true freedom. It is what we are designed for.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Everything we have, and are, comes from God. Everything.
We are made in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, and John says that there is nothing in the universe that was not made by him, John 1:3.
We have emotions, and can be happy, thankful, joyful. excited etc - because that is how God made us. Sadly our emotions have been affected by sin, so we can also be angry, sad, envious, frustrated etc; but we are emotional beings because God made us that way.
We have certain gifts and attributes - we can be creative, scientific, logical, precise, freethinkers, mathematical, musical, artistic etc etc - because God gave us those gifts, made us that way and in his image.
We have been given minds and the ability to reason, research, discover, debate and so on - because God gave us those abilities and we are made in his image.
We have also been given the ability to choose; whether minor things like new clothes, what to have for lunch, what colour car we want to buy, much bigger things like what job to have, and things that will affect our salvation and where we spend eternity. We have been made in the image of God; if he can choose, then we can too.

If God has chosen to give us the ability to choose, how can he do anything else but let us do so?
If God said, "repent, follow me and you will have eternal life, but if you do not repent you will perish", but the reality was that some people had been created so that they could NOT choose; how would it be fair that he pretended he was giving us a choice?
If Jesus said, "come to me", Matthew 11:28, but actually meant, "God has decided that some of you will NEVER be able to come to me"; how would it be fair to issue that invitation?

If we can choose anything, it is God who has given us that ability and chosen to do so.
We can choose to give it back to God and say, "Lord, I want to serve you and do what you want, and not what I want". If we make Jesus Lord of our lives, then I believe we give him permission to act as he sees best also. And there may be times when God keeps nudging people and presenting them with the Gospel until they feel they have no choice but to say yes; but i don't believe God will override someone's will and take away the ability to choose that he gave them in the first place.

We seem to be going round and round. I am not at all denying choice --real choice, with real results, even eternal results. What I deny is the notion that for God to be in control and to predestine everything that comes to pass necessarily implies that we are not actually choosing, as though we are programmed automatons or something. Predestination does not imply that. God is not making a bet or running a risk. There is no plan B.
 
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Strong in Him

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We seem to be going round and round. I am not at all denying choice --real choice, with real results, even eternal results. What I deny is the notion that for God to be in control and to predestine everything that comes to pass necessarily implies that we are not actually choosing, as though we are programmed automatons or something. Predestination does not imply that. God is not making a bet or running a risk. There is no plan B.

In that case, I think we're actually on the same page, and there's nothing more to be said.
 
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BCsenior

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"If the son of man shall set you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Being a slave to Christ is the only true freedom. It is what we are designed for.
Yes but, do you understand what being set free is all about?
I.E. Set free from what?
 
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BCsenior

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BC: do you understand what being set free is all about?

From being slaves to sin, contextually. What is your point?
My point was to see if you were one of those here who doesn't understand this.
 
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This means, we should not put effort in preaching the gospel?? since, you know God has a set of people who he wants to be saved. So why preach? if God wants they are going to be saved. Also do God loves all babies? because babies are going to heaven you know, so if he loves them why not let them grow anyway if he wants to save them they will be saved... the madness begins...o_O
 
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This means, we should not put effort in preaching the gospel??
since, you know God has a set of people who he wants to be saved.
So why preach? if God wants they are going to be saved.
Greetings ...

God has always accomplished His Plans via co-operation between Himself and man.
Except the creation, of course.
You know, march around Jericho 7 times doing such and so, and I will blow the walls down!

So, the gospel has to be given to the elect for them to accept it and be saved.
I hope this makes sense to you.
 
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Butch5

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What do think about all of those NT election verses?

And the NT verses about some people being called and chosen?
The fact is ... many are called, but only a few are chosen!

And this is NOT about who people who choose to believe!
It's about born-again people who choose to remain faithful and obey, etc.
Most of those who are called accept the calling and are born-again.
But who are the chosen ones? ... Those dressed in blue.
If you read that passage in context you'll see that that is not what it means.
 
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Butch5

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So, do YOU have any idea what I've been talking about?

Cannot God choose who He will give the ability
to believe in Jesus and the foolish gospel?
Yea or Nay?
After being chosen, cannot people reject the call?
After being chosen, cannot people accept the call,
and then choose to NOT be faithful (i.e. obedient)?

You surely don't have to believe this scenario,
but do you understand it? ... Ditto for everyone.

The error here is that you believe God chooses people to be saved.
 
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Butch5

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So we have some part in saving ourselves, or knowing who else is saved or not saved or not...?

And what does one do with that knowledge who thinks they have it...?

God Bless!

One can't save them self. That's impossible, so we can dispense with that straw man.

When you say saved or not saved I assume you mean one who claims to be a Christian as none of us know another ones end.

I'm not sure what you mean you last statement.

"And what does one do with that knowledge who thinks they have it...?"
 
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Strong in Him

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So we have some part in saving ourselves, or knowing who else is saved or not saved or not...?

No; the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life, Romans 6:23.
The Gospel is that we are unable to save ourselves, get rid of our own sin and reconcile ourselves to God - but Jesus died to do just that. We deserved death; he has given us life. It's not just that we have forgiveness through him, we have every spiritual blessing in him. We are children and heirs of God; co-heirs with Christ.

IF we accept Christ.
We don't have to say 'yes' to Christ, but there are consequences for those who don't accept God's amazing free gift.
 
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Strong in Him

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But God already knows, right...?

He knows who will accept him and who will reject him, yes.
He knows if some of those who reject him now will ultimately accept him. He knows whether they are truly rejecting him, or have been hurt by the church/other Christians/life and just appear to reject him.
The saddest thought of all is that some who now say they reject God actually reject the church, and think that God must be like the church is. :( We may have a hell of a lot to answer for.
 
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Neogaia777

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He knows who will accept him and who will reject him, yes.
He knows if some of those who reject him now will ultimately accept him. He knows whether they are truly rejecting him, or have been hurt by the church/other Christians/life and just appear to reject him.
The saddest thought of all is that some who now say they reject God actually reject the church, and think that God must be like the church is. :( We may have a hell of a lot to answer for.
I wouldn't want someone rejecting God because of the "church" either though...

And unfortunately that does happen, and happens a lot...

And I can 100% totally and fully and completely understand that as well, sadly...

God Bless!
 
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Mark Quayle

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This means, we should not put effort in preaching the gospel?? since, you know God has a set of people who he wants to be saved. So why preach? if God wants they are going to be saved. Also do God loves all babies? because babies are going to heaven you know, so if he loves them why not let them grow anyway if he wants to save them they will be saved... the madness begins...o_O
No that would be just silly, presumptuous, and dead wrong.

For one thing, God uses means to accomplish his ends, and the means of preaching the Gospel ( --relating, communicating, whatever), is one of his means of bringing the elect to himself. (It is also useful for several other things, such as leaving people with no excuse, blinding some of them, etc etc.)

For many of us, we really cannot help but talk about him. Amos: "The lion has roared, who will not fear? The Sovereign Lord has spoken, who can but prophesy?"
 
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