The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

truefiction1 · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
He was speaking about Cain's temper. Not salvation.

God was speaking about Cain's ability to choose to do what is right or to refuse to do what is right. God is asking Cain to use the will that He endowed him with to choose the path which leads to Life, rather than the path which leads to destruction. You see how simple it is? We choose, and it is therefor we who are going to be held accountable for the direction in which we go. But you made the claim that freewill only exists after the fall within those who God chooses to grace with it, or some such concept that arose from rationalistic theology, rather than grace led Theology.

Dave L · Nov 19, 2019

truefiction1 said:
God was speaking about Cain's ability to choose to do what is right or to refuse to do what is right. God is asking Cain to use the will that He endowed him with to choose the path which leads to Life, rather than the path which leads to destruction. You see how simple it is? We choose, and it is therefor we who are going to be held accountable for the direction in which we go. But you made the claim that freewill only exists after the fall within those who God chooses to grace with it, or some such concept that arose from rationalistic theology, rather than grace led Theology.

Al Capone could do this. That's why he was mostly guilty in breaking the Law while all the time feeding Chicago's great depression victims.

truefiction1 · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
Al Capone could do this. That's why he was mostly guilty in breaking the Law while all the time feeding Chicago's great depression victims.

Al Capone could have chosen to move towards Loving God, as God Loves Him. Or he could destroy himself by choosing to love only himself. The tree is known by its fruit, and murderers are the offspring of Satan, who was a murderer from the beginning.

Dave L · Nov 19, 2019

truefiction1 said:
Al Capone could have chosen to move towards Loving God, as God Loves Him. Or he could destroy himself by choosing to love only himself. The tree is known by its fruit, and murderers are the offspring of Satan, who was a murderer from the beginning.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

truefiction1 · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Yes, and the natural man is natural (as opposed to spiritual) because of the way in which he, or she, chooses to orient their own will. The inability of the natural man to receive the Spirit of God is their own fault because they did not use their ability to choose to want to do what is good. The ability to choose to want to do good remains intact, even in natural man. For as He said to that natural man, Cain, before he chose to murder his brother: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" The answer that God knows to be true is that if Cain were only to choose to want to do what is right, then God would accept him and shower him with grace so that God's own goodness would begin to work within Cain, thereby saving him. "God wills all men to be saved and to come to Love (know) Him", so we are instructed to pray for all men, good or evil, as this is good and acceptable to God who Loves all mankind.

In the Kingdom of God there is no concern about who gets credit for salvation. Credit is the concern of the proud and the vain. Pride and vanity don't exist in God's kingdom because they are evil products of self-love. Only Love matters in God's Kingdom. I wouldn't want any friend of mine to be entertaining any ideas about our Salvation by God that is tainted by the pride and vanity that often afflicts our own hearts and minds. Only those ideas about Salvation that are revealed to us in the Holy Spirit, by grace, are worthy of God's glory.

Dave L · Nov 19, 2019

truefiction1 said:
Yes, and the natural man is natural (as opposed to spiritual) because of the way in which he, or she, chooses to orient their own will. The inability of the natural man to receive the Spirit of God is their own fault because they did not use their ability to choose to want to do what is good. The ability to choose to want to do good remains intact, even in natural man. For as He said to that natural man, Cain, before he chose to murder his brother: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" The answer that God knows to be true is that if Cain were only to choose to want to do what is right, then God would accept him and shower him with grace so that God's own goodness would begin to work within Cain, thereby saving him. "God wills all men to be saved and to come to Love (know) Him", so we are instructed to pray for all men, good or evil, as this is good and acceptable to God who Loves all mankind.

In the Kingdom of God there is no concern about who gets credit for salvation. Credit is the concern of the proud and the vain. Pride and vanity don't exist in God's kingdom because they are evil products of self-love. Only Love matters in God's Kingdom. I wouldn't want any friend of mine to be entertaining any ideas about our Salvation by God that is tainted by the pride and vanity that often afflicts our own hearts and minds. Only those ideas about Salvation that are revealed to us in the Holy Spirit, by grace, are worthy of God's glory.

It says people cannot discern spiritual truth.

truefiction1 · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
It says people cannot discern spiritual truth.

It says that the things of the Holy Spirit can only be discerned spiritually (i.e. by spiritual persons). It does not say that a carnal person can never become spiritual. Becoming spiritual is dependent upon the reception of grace from God, usually by means of the Holy Spirit Who dispenses grace. Grace is lacking in those who have preferred to have none of it, but have allowed themselves to be enticed by their own desires til they become full of darkness, rather than the spiritually discerning light of grace.

Again, it is because a carnal person chooses not to move towards God that God allows them to be in the dark so as to not know the Truth, whereas for those who choose to move towards God, He provides them with enough light (grace) for spiritual discernment in order that they may do so. Grace is God's uncreated energy. It does the work of God and it shines forth Divine Light. It is this grace of God that the three disciples beheld with their eyes when Christ was Transfigured before them on Mount Tabor. The disciples beheld the glory of God's grace and could not even comprehend or define it. They could merely experience and be personally transformed by it. Grace is not "undeserved favor from God". Grace defies definition, because Grace is an uncreated part of the uncreated Holy Trinity itself. We don't define it. It defines us.

Dave L · Nov 19, 2019

truefiction1 said:
It says that the things of the Holy Spirit can only be discerned spiritually (i.e. by spiritual persons). It does not say that a carnal person can never become spiritual. Becoming spiritual is dependent upon the reception of grace from God, usually by means of the Holy Spirit Who dispenses grace. Grace is lacking in those who have preferred to have none of it, but have allowed themselves to be enticed by their own desires til they become full of darkness, rather than the spiritually discerning light of grace.

Again, it is because a carnal person chooses not to move towards God that God allows them to be in the dark so as to not know the Truth, whereas for those who choose to move towards God, He provides them with enough light (grace) for spiritual discernment in order that they may do so. Grace is God's uncreated energy. It does the work of God and it shines forth Divine Light. It is this grace of God that the three disciples beheld with their eyes when Christ was Transfigured before them on Mount Tabor. The disciples beheld the glory of God's grace and could not even comprehend or define it. They could merely experience and be personally transformed by it. Grace is not "undeserved favor from God". Grace defies definition, because Grace is an uncreated part of the uncreated Holy Trinity itself. We don't define it. It defines us.

It means people cannot discern the true Christ, and will choose only a false Christ that cannot save.

renniks · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
It means people cannot discern the true Christ, and will choose only a false Christ that cannot save.

Then nothing matters. Seriously, if this were true, evangelism would be pointless.

Dave L · Nov 19, 2019

renniks said:
Then nothing matters. Seriously, if this were true, evangelism would be pointless.

No, people need to reframe their thinking according to the gospel even though they are already saved.

truefiction1 · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
It means people cannot discern the true Christ, and will choose only a false Christ that cannot save.

By grace a person can come to know Christ truly. God gives grace to the humble, who call on Him for help. This (calling on God for help) God wills all men to do, so that He can give them grace, that they may be made "alive again" (Luke 15:24) (1 Timothy 2:4).

truefiction1 · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
No, people need to reframe their thinking according to the gospel even though they are already saved.

It is being made "alive again" by the grace (power) of God that matters truly matters. People need that. People do not need to adhere to any fallen man's particular soteriological framework, and Calvinism, or Lutheranism, etc... is exactly that, and their particular "systems" defining salvation are no less flawed than they themselves were, on account of the particular manner in which they were afflicted with sinful passion. Their soteriological systems bare the imprint of the flaws in their own characters.

No thank you. We'll trust instead in the things which are revealed by the Holy Spirit, as we are able to discern them by the grace that God Lovingly gives to the humble.

renniks · Nov 19, 2019

Dave L said:
No, people need to reframe their thinking according to the gospel even though they are already saved.

If God wants that to happen, he will irresistibly do it, yes? Why would we need to do anything?

Neogaia777 · Nov 20, 2019

renniks said:
If God wants that to happen, he will irresistibly do it, yes? Why would we need to do anything?

"We don't know, and we don't know, and we don't know", are the reasons "why", etc...

Why we still should, and still do have to, "choose", etc, pray, etc... Cause we don't know, etc...

But we should always keep in mind that "God" "already knows", etc, and "already" "knew" from long, long ago, etc...

And that is the important part most of you are missing, or seem to be missing, etc...

You try to make yourselves like God or God like us, now what do you think He thinks about that...?

You do not believe in, nor see, nor follow after, nor walk in the ways of, etc, etc, etc, the True Highest God, etc...

God is a "Trinity" also, and that is another revelation that most of you are missing as well...

God Bless!

Dave L · Nov 20, 2019

renniks said:
If God wants that to happen, he will irresistibly do it, yes? Why would we need to do anything?

Can you find any situation in scripture where people believed and were saved through the power of the flesh? Many believed when they saw the miracles, but Christ did not commit himself to them.

Dave L · Nov 20, 2019

truefiction1 said:
It is being made "alive again" by the grace (power) of God that matters truly matters. People need that. People do not need to adhere to any fallen man's particular soteriological framework, and Calvinism, or Lutheranism, etc... is exactly that, and their particular "systems" defining salvation are no less flawed than they themselves were, on account of the particular manner in which they were afflicted with sinful passion. Their soteriological systems bare the imprint of the flaws in their own characters.

No thank you. We'll trust instead in the things which are revealed by the Holy Spirit, as we are able to discern them by the grace that God Lovingly gives to the humble.

I notice you are of a denominational sort just as Lutherans and Calvinists are.

Dave L · Nov 20, 2019

truefiction1 said:
By grace a person can come to know Christ truly. God gives grace to the humble, who call on Him for help. This (calling on God for help) God wills all men to do, so that He can give them grace, that they may be made "alive again" (Luke 15:24) (1 Timothy 2:4).

But all men cannot discern the true Christ unless first born again.

renniks · Nov 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Can you find any situation in scripture where people believed and were saved through the power of the flesh? Many believed when they saw the miracles, but Christ did not commit himself to them.

No one is saying that anyone believes through the flesh. But, that doesn't mean the only other option is irresistible Grace. Jesus said that the one that seeks finds, the one who knocks the door is opened to. We are giving enough light to seek and to find if we so choose.

Dave L · Nov 20, 2019

renniks said:
No one is saying that anyone believes through the flesh. But, that doesn't mean the only other option is irresistible Grace. Jesus said that the one that seeks finds, the one who knocks the door is opened to. We are giving enough light to seek and to find if we so choose.

He's talking to believers. Unbelievers won't do this.

renniks · Nov 20, 2019

Dave L said:
He's talking to believers. Unbelievers won't do this.

Um..No he wasn't, shortly after he makes that statement he tells people to enter through the narrow gate, which is himself.

The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

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