Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

mkgal1 · Nov 14, 2019

DavidPT said:
I don't see it as replacement either. No one is being replaced that I can see.

Exactly. If one were to suggest that what I'm describing is "replacement" - then they'd have to overlook the fact that most of the early church was JEWISH (it wasn't until later that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles). Even then - there were deliberate actions made in order that the church was united as one - and not separated as some hybrid religion. For example:

Acts 8:14-17 ~ Now the apostles in Jerusalem, having heard that Samaria had received the word of God, sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

thomas_t · Nov 15, 2019

mkgal1 said:
then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Hi Gal,
yes of course. But strictly speaking, your verse does not mention Israel. Heirs but not Israel. Abraham had many sons. My explanation is that there are many heirs. Christians and Israel. Ironically, you go on mentioning two verses praising Abraham as the father of many nations. So why should ethnic Israel NOT be included?

mkgal1 said:
It's not about *replacement* because the faithful Jewish remnant [...]

The messianic Jews is what I think the faithful remnant is.
Israel is more. Not every Jew is a Christian. As you know, the faithful remnant are not enemies of the Gospel. They believe in Jesus, the Messiah! However, according to Romans 11:28, Israel is (the "they" in this verse is Israel).
So you see: Israel is more than a remnant, it is the whole people.
70 years ago, people tried to steal everything from the Jews. Here in Germany at least. Even my (biological) family was guilty of it. They stole money from them.
Now Christians try to "steal" their identity saying they aren't Israel anymore cause they aren't faithful enough. Both is dangerous.
Regards,
Thomas

jgr · Nov 15, 2019

thomas_t said:
So why should ethnic Israel NOT be included?

Hi thomas_t,

Why did God slay thousands of ethnic Israelites in the OT? What was His reason?

You are right that Jews who have trusted Christ are the faithful remnant, and it is they who are saved (Romans 9:27, Romans 11:1-5). Unfortunately, however, the remnant is a portion of the nation, not the entire nation. That was the reason for Paul's anguish, and his reconfirmation that all physical Israel was not all spiritual Israel (Romans 9:1-8), and that not all physical Israel would be saved.

thomas_t · Nov 15, 2019

Hi jgr,

jgr said:
You are right that Jews who have trusted Christ are the faithful remnant,

jgr said:
Why did God slay thousands of ethnic Israelites in the OT? What was His reason?

no idea

jgr said:
That was the reason for Paul's anguish, and his reconfirmation that all physical Israel was not all spiritual Israel

agreed in a sense that physical Jews are not necessarily spiritual Jews ... I also agree with you that the remnant is only a portion of Israel..

jgr said:
and that not all physical Israel would be saved.

here I sense the replacement. We have Romans 11:26 saying all Israel, which is the little remnant + other Jews who are enemies of the Gospel according to Romans 11:28. No space for replacement theology. Old Israel is not replaced by the church.

Regards,
Thomas
EDITED

jgr · Nov 15, 2019

Hi thomas_t,

jgr said:
Why did God slay thousands of ethnic Israelites in the OT? What was His reason?

thomas_t said:
no idea

Unfaithfulness and disobedience.

Their physical DNA couldn't save them when their spiritual DNA had degenerated.

jgr said:
and that not all physical Israel would be saved.

thomas_t said:
here we disagree. We have Romans 11:26 saying all Israel. No space for replacement theology. Old Israel is not replaced by the church.

There would have been no reason for Paul to be in anguish if he believed that all physical Israel would be saved.

But he knew otherwise.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

keras · Nov 15, 2019

DavidPT said:
That misses the point though. Why did Jesus agree with them that they were Abraham's seed? And once again, since you didn't answer the question, would Jesus have said that to any Gentiles at the time, that He knows, thus agrees they are Abraham's seed? Wasn't that being determined via DNA, as in ancestry? Take some of your ancestors, for instance. Are they my ancestors as well?

Ancestry isn't the critical factor in determining who is an Israelite of God.
Ephesians 2:11-18 makes that abundantly clear.
Also, the chosen people are those who have accepted Jesus. John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10

After 3000 years and 100's of generations, it is mathematically proven that we all have some of the genetics of Abraham.

thomas_t · Nov 16, 2019

jgr said:
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Hi j,
it's a flawed translation. It's the wrong order of words you use. Biblehhub shows (click here), that in the Greek text the "of Israel" is directly behind the "all". Actually, it sounds like this: "not all who are of Israel are this Israel".
Well this is a matter of fact.

jgr said:
2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

It's your assumption since you didn't provide any scripture to back this up. It's a false assumption I guess.

jgr said:
Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles

Neither the believing remnant nor believers from among the Gentiles are enemies of the Gospel as explained in Romans 11:28. However, this is the Israel - although being enemies of the Gospel - that gets saved. See same verse. I've told you already... so this is going round in circles, I think. I'd like to ask you: can we stop this here? I don't want to be rude. I like small threads

.
They are loved because of the promises made to the forefathers, explained by Romans 11:28 (second part).
Thomas

jgr · Nov 16, 2019

Hi t,

thomas_t said:
it's a flawed translation. It's the wrong order of words you use. Biblehhub shows (click here), that in the Greek text the "of Israel" is directly behind the "all". Actually, it sounds like this: "not all who are of Israel are this Israel".

Virtually every version translates it in essentially the same way. Many correctly clarify "of Israel" as meaning "descended from Israel".

thomas_t said:
Neither the believing remnant nor believers from among the Gentiles are enemies of the Gospel as explained in Romans 11:28. However, this is the Israel - although being enemies of the Gospel - that gets saved. See same verse. I've told you already... so this is going round in circles, I think. I'd like to ask you: can we stop this here? I don't want to be rude. I like small threads .
They are loved because of the promises made to the forefathers, explained by Romans 11:28 (second part).

There are two different "theys" in Romans 11:28 -- the enemies of the gospel, and the beloved elect.

Nowhere in Scripture are the former ever numbered among the latter.

Scripture is unequivocal in identifying who the elect(ion) are. They are those of faith and obedience, saved by grace not race, members of the Church of the Redeemed.

They alone are the beloved.

And in trusting Christ as the elect, they continue true to the faith of the forefathers, and beloved for their sakes.

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

thomas_t · Nov 17, 2019

Hi J,

jgr said:
Virtually every version translates it in essentially the same way. Many correctly clarify "of Israel" as meaning "descended from Israel".

ok.
I just wanted to make it clear that "all Israel" is of course comprised of Jews. Not only the faithful remnant but also those who are not Jesus-believers (Christians)... normal Jews basically.

jgr said:
There are two different "theys" in Romans 11:28 -- the enemies of the gospel, and the beloved elect.

no, they are the same. They are the beloved ones as stated by this very verse. If you say it's two different "theys" then you need to find proof for it in the grammar of that verse. Then you need to back it up. Why not stay with plain understanding. There is absolutely no hint at all in the text that there are two different "theys" in that verse.
Christians are chosen by God. Here we agree, your verses concerning election are right.
However, God isn't restricted to issue one only election. So you can't say that Christians - and only them - are the only ones ever having been elected by God in some way.
I stay with my opinion.
Regards,
Thomas

keras · Nov 17, 2019

thomas_t said:
I just wanted to make it clear that "all Israel" is of course comprised of Jews. Not only the faithful remnant but also those who are not Jesus-believers (Christians)... normal Jews basically.

The Israelites of God are every faithful Christian person, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9
Realize this; anyone can claim to be anything. The people who inhabit the small nation on the Eastern shore of the Mediterranean, call themselves Israel, but in reality have no proof of ancestral descent from Abraham, Jacob or Judah.
It is well documented that a tribe called the Khazars converted to Judaism over 1000 years ago. They are now the Ashkenazi Jews, that have no link to Judah at all.
So your 'normal Jews' most often are just false claimants and we note their behavior as atheist's, LGBT false religion worshippers and Jesus rejecters.
Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise in the near future. Romans 9:27

jgr · Nov 18, 2019

thomas_t said:
They are the beloved ones as stated by this very verse.

What other Scripture declares enemies of the gospel to be beloved?

Philippians 3
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Enemies of the cross of Christ are unquestionably also enemies of the gospel.

Their destiny is also unquestionable, and it is not the destiny of the beloved.

thomas_t said:
Then you need to back it up.

Your claim is that enemies of the gospel are the beloved elect, but you can cite no other supporting Scripture.

I have cited much of the Scripture which identifies the beloved elect, and none of it supports your claim.

thomas_t said:
However, God isn't restricted to issue one only election

What Scripture identifies criteria other than faith and obedience which can substitute for faith and obedience in God's beloved elect?

thomas_t · Nov 18, 2019

Hi J,
I see your problem. You don't see other scripture in the sense that an enemy of the Gospel can be saved. Then you feel inclined to alter the one verse that says they are.

jgr said:
but you can cite no other supporting Scripture.

I didn't think about this earlier, so let me tell you what quickly comes to my mind: When Saul - enemy of the Gospel - went to Damaskus to kill His disciples in Acts 9:2... Jesus suddenly showed up and then Saul became Paul the Apostle. How nice.
So long as you are enemy of the Gospel, you can't be saved. Here we agree. But when you are an enemy of the Gospel today, you can be a Christian tomorrow and it is in this sense that Israel will be saved in the future. This is my reading of the text at least. I wouldn't cancel out Israel.

Jesus can love those who are enemies today. His love is greater than you think. And he loves Israel.

In my interpretation, Philippians 3:18 mentions (former) Christians. Those who have turned away from faith. That's a special case.

jgr said:
What Scripture identifies criteria other than faith and obedience which can substitute for faith and obedience in God's beloved elect?

No I don't think faith can be substituted here.
There is no way to circumvent Jesus for salvation, I think. Here we agree.
But when someone doesn't believe today he can believe tomorrow. In this sense, they might be enemies today but in the future this might be subject to change. That's the point.
Thomas

thomas_t · Nov 18, 2019

keras said:
Realize this; anyone can claim to be anything.

Hi Keras,
and many people can claim Israel to be anything, yeah I know.

keras said:
It is well documented that a tribe called the Khazars converted to Judaism over 1000 years ago. They are now the Ashkenazi Jews,

I regard this as your assumption since you didn't back this up by anything. Maybe it's true.

keras said:
The Israelites of God are every faithful Christian person, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9

Neither Isaiah 66:18 nor Rev 5:9 mentions Israel/ Israelites. You have no scripture to back this assertion up. It's a tale.

keras said:
So your 'normal Jews' most often are just false claimants

Keras, you're judging here. But do you know who is the judge? It's Jesus.

Thomas

keras · Nov 18, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Keras,
and many people can claim Israel to be anything, yeah I know.

I regard this as your assumption since you didn't back this up by anything. Maybe it's true.

Neither Isaiah 66:18 nor Rev 5:9 mentions Israel/ Israelites. You have no scripture to back this assertion up. It's a tale.

Keras, you're judging here. But do you know who is the judge? It's Jesus.

Thomas

Jacob was called Israel because he was an overcomer for God; the literal meaning of Israel.
We see the overcomers and the victorious ones in each of the 7 Churchs of Revelation and the proof verse is in Galatians 6:14-16.
We Christians are the Israelites of God.
This truth is unacceptable to those who want God to take them to heaven to avoid any Tribulation, as they must have Israel on earth then. But unless a scripture can be found that says God will 'rapture' anyone other than the 2 Witnesses, then I will continue to strongly oppose that false idea.

jgr · Nov 18, 2019

Hi T,

thomas_t said:
You don't see other scripture in the sense that an enemy of the Gospel can be saved.

Not so. There are innumerable examples of those who have renounced their lives as enemies of the gospel, and accepted Christ's invitation into the beloved elect.

But it has always depended upon the decision which God leaves to us.

Joshua 24
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Sadly, not everyone chose then, or chooses today, to serve the Lord.

thomas_t said:
But when you are an enemy of the Gospel today, you can be a Christian tomorrow

Unquestionably true. But you cannot become the latter until you renounce the former.

thomas_t said:
it is in this sense that Israel will be saved in the future.

Those of Israel who choose to serve the Lord will be saved.

Not all will so choose.

thomas_t said:
Jesus can love those who are enemies today. His love is greater than you think. And he loves Israel.

He loves all mankind. But He saves only those who choose to serve Him.

Not all so choose.

thomas_t · Nov 19, 2019

Hi Keras,

keras said:
Galatians 6:14-16.
We Christians are the Israelites of God.

I don't think so.
Galatians 6:16 is not a proof verse for you. There is absolutely no proof at all that Christians are meant by "Israel of God". The notion of "Israel" in verse 16 is rather a hint to Jews being meant, I guess.
Regards,
Thomas

keras · Nov 19, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Keras,
I don't think so.
Galatians 6:16 is not a proof verse for you. There is absolutely no proof at all that Christians are meant by "Israel of God". The notion of "Israel" in verse 16 is rather a hint to Jews being meant, I guess.
Regards,
Thomas

I suggest that you read ALL of Galatians 6:14-16.....all who take this [Christian] principal for their guide....are the Israelites of God.
The Overcomers for Him; literally the true Israelites.

Your 'guess' that it refers to Jews, is biased to suit your belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, while the Jews pass thru tribulation. None of that is in the Bible.
The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9

2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1

3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [wrongly called; Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.

thomas_t · Nov 19, 2019

Hi Keras,

keras said:
all who take this [Christian] principal for their guide....are the Israelites of God.

This text is not Bible.
"Israel of God" is an expression that figures only once in the Bible.

keras said:
literally the true Israelites

the true Israelites .... are true Israelites. Very simple.

keras said:
Your 'guess' that it refers to Jews, is biased to suit your belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, while the Jews pass thru tribulation.

As I've told you already in the other board (we've had a discussion on Worthy, if you noticed...

) I am neutral on any position regarding rapture.

keras said:
The above 10 proofs

Let's do it this way: I refute you the 3 first "proofs". For reasons of time I won't go through the rest, assuming that it is also wrong.

keras said:
1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9

God isn't restricted to issue one election only.

keras said:
2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1

I also say that Israel IN THE OLD COVENANT are a good comparison to modern day Christians. The fact that the Bible calls Christians children of God does not transform them into Israel though. Bible teaches that he used to have Jews as children, now he also has Christians. This is not impossible for the almighty God. Both groups are not interchangeable.

keras said:
3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

he has many sheep. BTW neither John 10:14-16, nor Hebrews 13:20, nor 1 Peter 2:25
describe gentile Christians, in my opinion. It's faithful Jewish Jesus-believers, I guess.

Regards,
Thomas

keras · Nov 19, 2019

thomas_t said:
This text is not Bible.
"Israel of God" is an expression that figures only once in the Bible.

Once is enough, it says those who follow the Way of Jesus are the Israel of God.
However all throughout the Bible, we are plainly told that the true people of God are those who believe in Him and keep His Commandments.
Those who don't and especially since Jesus came, who reject Him, are NOT the Israelites of God. This is made clear in Romans 2:29

thomas_t said:
the true Israelites .... are true Israelites. Very simple.

The meaning of the Hebrew word; Israelite, is a person who is an overcomer for God. Very simple; every faithful Christian. Jew and Gentile.

There is only ONE elect group of people. They are His faithful Christains. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +

William Lefranc · Nov 19, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
The people of modern Israel are just as messed up, demonic, confused, deceived and sinful as any other nationality. Except for those who are born again. It's important not to confuse God's restoration of the nation with the reality that only those who are born again can even see the Kingdom of God. God promised to scatter, then bring back, the Jews. The nation has been restored, according to prophecy. Mostly, they have not yet said, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". The nation of Israel stands as a testimony to God's power to overrule the ways of the world, when it suits Him. That is why much of the world wants to destroy Israel. And that is why, in spite of the powers surrounding Israel, it still exists and indeed, prospers.

I beg to differ. There are no prophecies for modern, secular, political and ungodly Israel. God dealt with them 2,000 years ago just as Jesus said He would. Paul the apostle confirmed it years later as the time of reckoning was approaching fast,

Matthew 23:34–38 (NKJV)
34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,
35 that on you may come all the righteous bloodshed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 See! Your house is left to you desolate."

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NKJV)
14 "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans,
15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us, and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost."

A.D. 70 didn't come fast enough. Justice took place as the old covenant ceased to be with the destruction of the temple and the burning down of Jerusalem as a witness that Israel ended forever as a covenant nation.

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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