Why is did God create us with the capacity to sin?

Good questions!

SIN:
God created the conditions where free will creatures would be able to make a choice between obedience and disobedience to God. This condition existed when God created an angel called Lucifer who was without sin yet, apparently, had free will. Lucifer chose to rebel against God and sin (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-15). Likewise, Adam and Eve,
having been made by God without sin, listened to the devil and chose to sin against God (Gen. 3). But God did not cause them to sin (James 1:13). In the freedom of their wills, each decided to rebel against God and sin entered the world (Rom. 5:12). God simply allowed the condition to exist where sin was possible.
An analogy can be found in the relationship between a parent and a child. A parent can create the condition that makes disobedience possible yet the parent remains innocent if the child sins. For example, if a parent tells his child to clean up his room and the child does not, he has rebelled. But, the parent is not responsible for the child’s sin, nor did he cause
the child to sin. The child had a choice to obey or not to obey.
Likewise, God has created the condition in the world where the ability to rebel against Him was possible. Yet, he is not responsible for that rebellion once it has been committed. Therefore, sin originated with Lucifer who was the first to rebel and entered the world through Adam who likewise chose disobedience.

FREE WILL
God’s purpose with mankind is to have eternal fellowship with those who truly love Him. Therefore, to create us as inherently good robots, without the potential for the opposite character, evil, would not allow for true love. For only love that comes from a free choice of the will is TRUE LOVE. Voluntary choice is the key – love isn’t genuine if there’s no other option.

Today at 12:41 AM karla said this in Post #2

FREE WILL
God’s purpose with mankind is to have eternal fellowship with those who truly love Him. Therefore, to create us as inherently good robots, without the potential for the opposite character, evil, would not allow for true love. For only love that comes from a free choice of the will is TRUE LOVE. Voluntary choice is the key – love isn’t genuine if there’s no other option.

Click to expand...

Great answer karla. I often thought about why there is evil and still not sure yet but if you look at this particular verse of scripture in Isaiah:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Is 45:7

You should note that it doesn't really mean that God created evil but it is because evil is the condition of not having good. Let me further explain. If you have light and you take away that light what is left? Darknes. If you have love, an ultimate love such as God, and take away that love what are you left with? Hate. Similarly if you have an ultimate good (that is God) and you remove that good, you are simply left with evil. It isn't that God created evil, it is His absence that results in evil. Because without God - an ultimate love, ultimate peace, and ultimate good - you are simply left with exactly the opposites. Ofcourse as believers we look forward to a new heaven and a new earth in which the presence of God will be more than sufficient to contain hate, darkness and evil.

I would like to also add that true love involves the union of body, soul and spirit. If the mutual consent of the individual is removed it ceases to be true love. If the freedom to love is removed then the ability to truly love is also taken away. If there is freedom to love then there is also the freedom not to love. Is there not? Because God is a God of love, we do not expect Him to demand or force love from us but offers His own Son as an offering of love that we may be redeemed to our former glory before the fall. God bless.

---------------------------------------------------------

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 [KJV]

28th March 2003 at 07:51 AM All4Christ said this in Post #1

If God is love, then why did he give us the capacity to sin?

Click to expand...

God giving Adam and Eve the capacity to sin was not an unloving action.  Adam and Eve were the only created beings ever created with the ability choose the righteous path of the Lord or rebellion from their conception.  All others were born corrupted.  Redeeming an individual after the Fall but leaving in us the inclination to sin is God's divine method of developing in us a godly character.  It is this struggle between our old (sinful, unregenerate) nature and our new (holy, regenerate) nature that brings about an understanding of the grace of God and His miraculous work in us.

If we have free will, then why did he let us have free will to sin if we want?

Click to expand...

Post-Fall man does not have "free will."  Let me qualify that.  That does not mean that post-Fall man cannot make decisions.  It means that unregenerate man is always inclined, and therefore always chooses, sinfully.  Always.  "Free will" is the ability to make any and all choices in a given moral situation.  Fallen man is spiritually dead and incapable of making the choice to live righteously according to the Word of God.  God, in regenerating someone, sets them free from the bondage of their sinfulness and then he is able to, as was Adam and Eve, choose to strive for holiness.

why did God predestine some to go to Hell and some to go to Heaven?

Click to expand...

There were many reasons for this.  The bottom line is that it was according to His good (this means holy and righteous) pleasure.

Is that characteristic of a loving God?

Click to expand...

Whatsoever comes to pass is orchestrated by God to sanctify His chosen.  Every single thing.  Certain things are only looked at as unloving by us because we only view them from our own fallen perspective and determine the righteousness of something by how we are affected.  We should look at everything we experience as something that God is using to sanctify us and make us holy.  Then, anything, regardless of how uncomfortable it may be, will be viewed with joyousness because we will understand that God is using that circumstance to conform us to the image of His Son, just as James wrote:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.  But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 

How do we address someone who asks us questions like this?

Click to expand...

The only answer to this I can provide is to speak to them from a God-centered point of view.

God bless,

Don

The notion that God predestines some to Heaven and some to Hell sounds inconsistent with His loving desire that all be saved because it is. In my judgment, it will not do to call some theological constructs "antinomies" or "paradoxes" when they are plainly illogical.
Jesus' response to Nicodemus' bewilderment shows us the Father's heart, "God so loved the world"--the coming of His Son was motivated by His love for the world. The desired end result of the Incarnation is " that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". Lest we misunderstand God's loving, universal intention, Jesus asserts, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world..." JN 3:16ff. If God predestined some prior to creation to perish, this execrable notion cannot be reconciled with the words of Jesus. Don't mind my clunky phraseology nor do I mean any disrespect--I have benefited too much from the Reformed tradition not to be grateful, but I have to object to the belief that a prior ordination of a non-existing sinner to Hell somehow glorifies God's mercy! God bless, Al

2nd April 2003 at 04:32 PM Allen2 said this in Post #5

Jesus' response to Nicodemus' bewilderment shows us the Father's heart, "God so loved the world"--the coming of His Son was motivated by His love for the world. The desired end result of the Incarnation is " that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". Lest we misunderstand God's loving, universal intention, Jesus asserts, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world..." JN 3:16ff. If God predestined some prior to creation to perish, this execrable notion cannot be reconciled with the words of Jesus.

Click to expand...

Which, of course, is the case if the word "world" in this case were to mean "all people," which it does not.

Don't mind my clunky phraseology nor do I mean any disrespect--I have benefited too much from the Reformed tradition not to be grateful, but I have to object to the belief that a prior ordination of a non-existing sinner to Hell somehow glorifies God's mercy! God bless, Al

Click to expand...

The "prior ordination of a non-existing sinner to hell" only glorifies the mercy of God by enlightening those to whom He has shown that mercy.  The goal of foreordaining to hell a being that has yet to be created is not to reveal unto that created being the mercy of God.  The Word of God says that all things work together for the good of those who love God.  It doesn't say all things work together for the good of all those who are created.

God bless

28th March 2003 at 09:51 AM All4Christ said this in Post #1

To play devil's advocate....and to try to find out an answer for my own curiosity....

If God is love, then why did he give us the capacity to sin? 

Click to expand...

Let me up the ante!

No saint will claim that Adam was not created in the Image of God.  Yet, He lacks the capacity to sin.  Can you reconcile these statements?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

"Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight."

2nd April 2003 at 05:51 PM All4Christ said this in Post #8

are you saying that since we are created in the image of God and since God is capable of sinning (though he doesn't) therefore adam must be capable of sinning as well?

Click to expand...

Two things.  First, we are not created in the image of God, at least not the way Adam was.  We are created in the image of Adam.  When we are regenerated by God we are recreated from above in the image of our Father.  Second, God is not capable of sinning.

God bless

God is incapable of sin.
Adam is capable of sin.
Adam was created in the image of God.

Can you reconcile that?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

"Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight."

I'll take a crack at it. To be created in the image of God is not to be like God. The key word is "image". An image is something that looks like something else, but the image is not the same as that which it looks like. In other words, Adam was created to look the way God looks, i.e. bipedal, standing upright, two arms, two legs, one head, etc., but that doesn't mean that Adam was created with the same capabilities as God. Adam looked like God, but he was other than God.

28th March 2003 at 03:51 PM All4Christ said this in Post #1

To play devil's advocate....and to try to find out an answer for my own curiosity....

If God is love, then why did he give us the capacity to sin?  If we have free will, then why did he let us have free will to sin if we want?  If we don't have free will....if there is predestination...why did God predestine some to go to Hell and some to go to Heaven?  Is that characteristic of a loving God? 

How do we address someone who asks us questions like this?  I believe that there is one way to God.  I believe in the Nicene Creed and all of that.  But nonetheless, when my friend brought this up....it bothered me.  Any suggestions?  If this post is not clear then let me know so that I can clear up any misunderstandings.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL!

--Laura

Click to expand...

dear laura,

yes, good questions.  i suppose one might want to first know who is this god who has created and by what means has god created and for what purpose.

 

bird

2nd April 2003 at 09:03 PM All4Christ said this in Post #11

Don, I wasn't saying that was what I personally believe. I was trying to repeat what I thought Woody was trying to say, so that I could see if that was what he was saying. I know that it is against God's nature to sin, that God is incapable of sin....I have no question on that....I was just trying to rephrase his words to see if i was understanding him.

Click to expand...

Ooops!  Sorry about that.

Hey Ref, old buddy...you say that "world" in Jn.3:16 does not refer to the whole world. IF the writer had wanted to say as much, what would he have said and why do you believe what you said. Well...OH! I have to wait, this is e-mail and not my cell-phone... Your favorite former Calvinist, Al

3rd April 2003 at 12:59 PM Allen2 said this in Post #16

Hey Ref, old buddy...you say that "world" in Jn.3:16 does not refer to the whole world. IF the writer had wanted to say as much, what would he have said and why do you believe what you said. Well...OH! I have to wait, this is e-mail and not my cell-phone... Your favorite former Calvinist, Al

Click to expand...

Hey Al.  First off, I think it's important that we establish some biblical definitions.  "Love," when spoken of in the Bible, is not a reference to an emotion, nor is "hate."  We, as created beings, used these words most often in the emotional sense, i.e., I tell my wife, "I love you."  Additionally, when we think of "hating" someone we think of an active, aggressive attitude toward them that oftentimes relays itself in an active, aggressive outward manner.  In the Bible the words "love" and "hate" are not only not references to emotions, they are used in a manner that is oppositie of the way in which the words are most often used.  For instance, when the Bible uses the word "love" it means "to give to someone that which they most need."  When the Bible speaks of "hate" it is not active as we would normally use the word.  Rather, it is just "not giving someone what they most need."

So, I ask you, is there any place in the Word where we are told specifically that God did not love a person or a group of people or are there any instances where it is shown that someone's best interest was not God's goal?  Did God ever withhold His grace so that anyone would act in accordance with their own fallenness just for the purpose of showing His own power?

God bless

3rd April 2003 at 09:39 PM Reformationist said this in Post #17



Hey Al.  First off, I think it's important that we establish some biblical definitions.  "Love," when spoken of in the Bible, is not a reference to an emotion, nor is "hate."  We, as created beings, used these words most often in the emotional sense, i.e., I tell my wife, "I love you."  Additionally, when we think of "hating" someone we think of an active, aggressive attitude toward them that oftentimes relays itself in an active, aggressive outward manner.  In the Bible the words "love" and "hate" are not only not references to emotions, they are used in a manner that is oppositie of the way in which the words are most often used.  For instance, when the Bible uses the word "love" it means "to give to someone that which they most need."  When the Bible speaks of "hate" it is not active as we would normally use the word.  Rather, it is just "not giving someone what they most need."

So, I ask you, is there any place in the Word where we are told specifically that God did not love a person or a group of people or are there any instances where it is shown that someone's best interest was not God's goal?  Did God ever withhold His grace so that anyone would act in accordance with their own fallenness just for the purpose of showing His own power?

God bless

Click to expand...

 

hi,  may i join in?

 

if love is "to give to someone that which they most need"  - then would a verse like john 3:16, "god so loved the world...that he gave..." imply that what the world was in most in need of is jesus?

 

bird

3rd April 2003 at 01:59 PM bird said this in Post #18 

hi,  may i join in?

Click to expand...

Of course.   

if love is "to give to someone that which they most need"  - then would a verse like john 3:16, "god so loved the world...that he gave..." imply that what the world was in most in need of is jesus?

Click to expand...

What "the world" most needed was what Jesus provided through His life and death of obedience.  It also makes it clearer if you understand "world" to mean "God's chosen" because it is His chosen for whom God sent His Son to die.  IOW, "For God so loved the world [His elect] that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world [His elect], but that the world [His elect] through Him might be saved."

*highlighted portion was my addition added for clarity

God bless

3rd April 2003 at 12:58 AM nobdysfool said this in Post #12

I'll take a crack at it. To be created in the image of God is not to be like God. The key word is "image". An image is something that looks like something else, but the image is not the same as that which it looks like. In other words, Adam was created to look the way God looks, i.e. bipedal, standing upright, two arms, two legs, one head, etc., but that doesn't mean that Adam was created with the same capabilities as God. Adam looked like God, but he was other than God.

Click to expand...

Look who followed me over here.  Is the other one coming as well?

Actually, you really can't make a case that Adam was created in the image of God in that he resembled the Lord in his physical appearance.

1. Adam's physical body was made out of created dirt.
2. The LORD is Spirit.
3. The Son had to take the likeness of a servant when He was begotten in the flesh.

This means that for Adam to be the image bearer of God, he had to resemble Him in a non-physical way.  Now, I'm not saying that we don't bear some physical resemblance to the Father.

You need to understand that I do not define "image" the way many people do.  Nor do I think the Bible teaches that man is a trichotomous being.  Man is a two-part being composed of flesh and spirit to make a soul.  So, when I talk about the image of God, I am speaking about Adam's spirit.

But, getting back to the original question:  "Why did God create Adam with the ability to Sin" or something like that.

The simple answer is because it was a good thing for Him to do that.  As saints, we know that ALL His works are good.  Ahh, but then that begs the question, why is that a good thing?

And though I am still chewing on the question, here are some observations:

1. The existence of sin is actually works together with all things for out ultimate good. (Romans 8:28)
2. The affliction we suffer because of sin in this world works for us for a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. (2 Corinthians 4:17)
3. In what way could the LORD have created Adam both innocent and holy, instead of just innocent, and not have created a robot?  I'm not saying He couldn' have.  I'm just mulling it over.
4. In what way could the LORD have created Adam merely innocent, knowing it was only a matter of time before he rebelled, without me having to slip into supralapsarianism.

Sigh!

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.