Futurist Only Where on the timeline?

HardHead · Nov 17, 2019

keras said:
But unless people understand who it is that Revelation 12:6-17 is talking about, then confusion reigns. That it refers to God's plans for every faithful Christian is proved by verse 17.

Correct. This is very confusing. I don't think I'm getting it to be honest.

Marilyn C said:
It is after the Russian War,

What do the Russians have to do with this? This is the first time I have seen a reference like this. Please expand on this a bit if possible. It sounds interesting.

Marilyn C · Nov 17, 2019

Douggg said:
Perhaps I was not clear or maybe you misunderstood what I wrote.

There are gaps that have to be filled when the information is not stated in the bible. For example, you are filling in that the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is a peace treaty. I don't think it is a peace treaty, but the Mt. Sinai covenant. I see no reason for a peace treaty after Gog/Magog because all of Israel's enemies will have been destroyed.

I am filling in that when the Antichrist commits the act in 2Thessalonians2:4 , the Jews will reject him at that point from continuing as the King of Israel. When for that reason of rejection, he begins to persecute them. The part in blue is not stated in the bible.

We are kinda drifting off course of the original post. Perhaps you could start another thread of when you think the Day of the Lord years begin, on the 7year timeline.

There is no proof that all the enemies of Israel have been defeated. And yes I agree we are drifting off topic, so I will post some threads in the future after I finish my blogs. Thanks.

Marilyn C · Nov 17, 2019

HardHead said:
Correct. This is very confusing. I don't think I'm getting it to be honest.

What do the Russians have to do with this? This is the first time I have seen a reference like this. Please expand on this a bit if possible. It sounds interesting.

Hi HardHead,

Thank you for your interest. As it is off topic somewhat I will post a thread after I finish my present series in my blog area. Meanwhile you may want to check out a series I did in my blogs, called `The Russian War.` Thanks.

In my blogs area: `The End Times,` on page 5 near the bottom is `The Russian War.`

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

Dale said:
The question is meaningless. There is no "casting down" of Satan that remains in the future, if you mean that Satan will be cast out of heaven and be confined to earth. Satan will be bound for a thousand years, and Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgment, but that's a different matter.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi HardHead,

Thank you for your interest. As it is off topic somewhat I will post a thread after I finish my present series in my blog area. Meanwhile you may want to check out a series I did in my blogs, called `The Russian War.` Thanks.

In my blogs area: `The End Times,` on page 5 near the bottom is `The Russian War.`

Hi Marilyn, I don't think the bible indicates a separate war with Russia to label Russia's involvement as part of the Gog/Magog group of nations - to call it "The Russian War".

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I thought several nations have or have had a peace treaty even when they were friends/ on the same side?
Does a treaty
(by definition or in practice)
have to be between enemies only?

The notion that Daniel 9:27 confirmation of the covenant for 7 years will be a peace treaty - is a misapplication of the text in the first place. The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years will not be a peace treaty, but the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for a 7 year cycle that Moses established in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It will be a big speech given on the temple mount by the Antichrist. Not anyone signing a "peace treaty".

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I believe all the saved Jews will never accept him , per se, even at first as king of Israel.
And all the saved Jews, and all the saved gentiles,
are already being actively persecuted all over the earth.

"All "Jews will never accept the Antichrist as being the messiah, nor later as the beast, agreed. But it appears that most (who are not Christians) though will in the Antichrist stage, but none in the beast stage of the person. During the beast stage of the person, all Israel, Jews, will have turned to Christ.

At least 144,000 in Revelation 7 will not, at any point. And Jews who at the time, if they are Christians will not, unless they are part of them who fall away from believing in Jesus in 2Thessalonians2:3. Which the goal of countermissionary Judaism groups seek even at present, to get them to return to Judaism, and depart Jesus.

It is important for Jews who are Christians, especially, to be knowledgeable of the end times, and that they are targeted by countermissionary groups.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

DavidPT said:
Where on the timeline do you see verse 13 fitting? And how much of the timeline would it be fitting? IOW, how much time does verse 13 involve before it leads to verses 14 through 16? And speaking of those verses, where do you see a time, and times, and half a time, fitting on the timeline? It can't be before verse 13.

Everything from Revelation 12:13-17 takes place within the time, times, half time. Verse 13 is a not separate event from the remainder of Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:14 the Jews are fleeing into the wilderness to escape. Previously, in Revelation 12:6, they also are fleeing into the wilderness to escape, because the Abomination of Desolation will have been setup, but their fleeing will be assisted in Revelation 12:6 because the two witnesses will be battling with the beast to provide some cover.

Revelation 12:16 is the trumpet judgements 1-4, to the earth, and later the bowl judgements, that will keep the beast, Satan's agent of destruction, preoccupied.

Revelation 12:17, the remnant of her seed are them who are not able to escape into the wilderness and will be persecuted, and near the end of the seven years, held as hostages at the time Jesus returns, in Zechariah 14:2, held captive.

Dale · Nov 18, 2019

Douggg said:
"cast down" is in the text.

The question is critical to an individual's understanding the end times, timeline, and order of events. And understanding that Revelation 11:15 begins in the middle of the 7 years and not at the end.

Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth
by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
the third woe cometh quickly.
the seventh angel sounded
the accuser of our brethren is cast down
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time
a time, and times, and half a time

Satan cast down to earth after the war in (the second) heaven is the third woe, which lasts the time, times, half time. The "days" of the sounding of the seventh angel, is the time, times, half times, which completes the seven year, 70th week, as declared by God to Daniel the prophet. See Revelation 10:7 at the bottomline below, highlighted in red.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
___________________________________________________________

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

_____________________________________________________________

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
______________________________________________________________

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Doug: << "cast down" is in the text. >>

The words "cast down" do appear in Revelation 12:9, which you don't specifically point to. The question is, what time period does this refer to? I don't believe that Satan is in heaven today, that would make no sense at all. If Satan works hard because his time is short, after being cast down, that seems to already be happening.

You seem to assume that Revelation is in chronological order. One expert in Revelation that I have read is Dr. James McKeever. One point that he made is that most people assume that Revelation is in chronological order. McKeever concluded that it is not.

As I said, what time period does "cast down" refer to? The term could simply be recapitulating a situation that has existed for thousands of years. I don't believe that the status of Satan has changed for thousands of years.

DavidPT · Nov 18, 2019

Douggg said:
Everything from Revelation 12:13-17 takes place within the time, times, half time. Verse 13 is a not separate event from the remainder of Revelation 12.

How can it not be a separate event?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Which then leads to this---

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Obviously, if she has already flown into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent---that means satan can't initially be persecuting her as shown in verse 13. This indicates verse 13 is before the time of a time, and times, and half a time, where she is nourished during that time from the face of the serpent.

So my questions are valid then, imo. Where on the timeline does verse 13 fit, and how much of the timeline does it involve?

DavidPT · Nov 18, 2019

Dale said:
Doug: << "cast down" is in the text. >>

The words "cast down" do appear in Revelation 12:9, which you don't specifically point to. The question is, what time period does this refer to? I don't believe that Satan is in heaven today, that would make no sense at all. If Satan works hard because his time is short, after being cast down, that seems to already be happening.

You seem to assume that Revelation is in chronological order. One expert in Revelation that I have read is Dr. James McKeever. One point that he made is that most people assume that Revelation is in chronological order. McKeever concluded that it is not.

As I said, what time period does "cast down" refer to? The term could simply be recapitulating a situation that has existed for thousands of years. I don't believe that the status of Satan has changed for thousands of years.

I have yet to fully make up my mind as to when satan is initially cast out of heaven unto the earth. I can see where it's possible that may have happened around the time of the ascension. But I can also see where it's possible that it is yet to occur.

keras · Nov 18, 2019

Douggg said:
The notion that Daniel 9:27 confirmation of the covenant for 7 years will be a peace treaty - is a misapplication of the text in the first place. The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years will not be a peace treaty, but the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for a 7 year cycle that Moses established in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It will be a big speech given on the temple mount by the Antichrist. Not anyone signing a "peace treaty".

"All "Jews will never accept the Antichrist as being the messiah, nor later as the beast, agreed. But it appears that most (who are not Christians) though will in the Antichrist stage, but none in the beast stage of the person. During the beast stage of the person, all Israel, Jews, will have turned to Christ.

At least 144,000 in Revelation 7 will not, at any point. And Jews who at the time, if they are Christians will not, unless they are part of them who fall away from believing in Jesus in 2Thessalonians2:3. Which the goal of countermissionary Judaism groups seek even at present, to get them to return to Judaism, and depart Jesus.

It is important for Jews who are Christians, especially, to be knowledgeable of the end times, and that they are targeted by countermissionary groups.

I totally disagree with all of the above. There is no scriptural support for any of it.

The treaty as described in Daniel 9:27 is a 7 year agreement for peace.
It is between the leader of the One World Government and the leaders of the new nation in the Middle East; called Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
Isaiah 28:14-15 refers to it, how many people of Beulah make a bad mistake. The two groups; those who agree and those who don't, are mentioned in Daniel 11:32-35 and Revelation 12:14 & 17

As for the Jews who remain apostate and Jesus rejecting, their fate is sealed and only a remnant of Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

keras · Nov 18, 2019

DavidPT said:
How can it not be a separate event?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Which then leads to this---

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Obviously, if she has already flown into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent---that means satan can't initially be persecuting her as shown in verse 13. This indicates verse 13 is before the time of a time, and times, and half a time, where she is nourished during that time from the face of the serpent.

So my questions are valid then, imo. Where on the timeline does verse 13 fit, and how much of the timeline does it involve?

The 'woman' refers to Christians.
Revelation 12 is a prophecy about the time that Satan is cast out of heaven and takes over the leader of the One World Govt, Revelation 13:3-4 It will happen at the mid point of the final 7 years of the age; when the Christian nation of Beulah is conquered, Zechariah 14:1-2 and the Temple is desecrated. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The Christians will be divided into 2 groups; those who keep faithful to the Lord and those who agreed to a treaty with the leader of the OWG.
The former are taken to safety and the latter remain. Revelation 12:17

DavidPT · Nov 18, 2019

keras said:
The Christians will be divided into 2 groups; those who keep faithful to the Lord and those who agreed to a treaty with the leader of the OWG.
The former are taken to safety and the latter remain. Revelation 12:17

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Surely you must realize that does not make good sense, that---the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----are meaning "those who agreed to a treaty with the leader of the OWG".

Your interpretation gives the impression it is a bad thing to keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Why would it be a bad thing rather than what God would hope every professed Christian is doing, keeping His commandments, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Marilyn C · Nov 18, 2019

Douggg said:
Hi Marilyn, I don't think the bible indicates a separate war with Russia to label Russia's involvement as part of the Gog/Magog group of nations - to call it "The Russian War".

Hi Douggg,

We can talk about that when I post that topic.

keras · Nov 18, 2019

DavidPT said:
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Surely you must realize that does not make good sense, that---the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----are meaning "those who agreed to a treaty with the leader of the OWG".

Your interpretation gives the impression it is a bad thing to keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Why would it be a bad thing rather than what God would hope every professed Christian is doing, keeping His commandments, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ?

I showed where Daniel 11:32-35 says the Christians will be divided into two groups.
That is perfect sense, one group, the 'many', will agree with this treaty and the other will rely on God's protection. They both remain Christians and will keep their salvation, but group one; will have to experience the Great Tribulation and persecution during the final 1260 days.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

Dale said:
As I said, what time period does "cast down" refer to? The term could simply be recapitulating a situation that has existed for thousands of years.

Dale, the text says when Satan is cast down he does so in great wrath be he knows he has but a shrot time, not thousands of years. Read the text.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi Douggg,

We can talk about that when I post that topic.

sure.

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

keras said:
The 'woman' refers to Christians.

Christians gave birth to Jesus?

Douggg · Nov 18, 2019

keras said:
The treaty as described in Daniel 9:27 is a 7 year agreement for peace.

Why doesn't the bible say that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is confirming a peace treaty for 7 years?

keras · Nov 19, 2019

Douggg said:
Christians gave birth to Jesus?

The usual 'gotcha' comment that just displays your failure to read other posts properly.
I have always said that Rev 12:1-5 refers to Jesus, Rev 12:6-17 is to do with those who follow Jesus.

Douggg said:
Why doesn't the bible say that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is confirming a peace treaty for 7 years?

The translators didn't know what Daniel 9:27 was about, or were biased in their rendering of that word. My REBible says; The prince will make a firm league with the many....
Obviously this 'league' is NOT a Covenant, with God or anyone else. It is an agreement; a treaty, to maintain peaceful relations between that prince, who will be the leader of the OWG and the leaders of the only nation that is not a member of the OWG, namely the Christian nation of Beulah. John 11:51-52

Futurist Only Where on the timeline?

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Pre-tribulation.

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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