How are we Dealing with the Voices in our heads?

Sam Davis

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Define a 'public' figure? I'm sure it's clear. What if Stirling and Switchfoot weren't 'professional' performers but just ordinary folks but still received the same kind of acerbic evaluations from others? Would that still be okay?

I hope you don’t take this as an insult but I think this is a ridiculous conversation. In our modern age of social media slanderous comments are bound to happen. It isn’t ok but it is what takes place on a regular basis. Rude comments can be made to any person but they are more likely to be made to public figures and that comes with the territory. Just go on Twitter and look at Trump’s comments and you will understand.
 
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Freodin

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Is this to say that there is a place for bullying and pushing one's agenda over others in our world, even if and when that bullying and/or agenda is offered up in "just so many words"?
No.
It is trying to distinguish with two different sides a problem.

The first is "how do you deal with bullies?" (or trolls, or critics or well-meaning but unwanted advisors). This is an external problem: what can we do to them to change our feelings about what they do.
The second is "how do you deal with your own feelings about bullies?". That's the "voices in your head" question. This is an internal problem: how to deal with your own feelings.

And regardless of how clear you think the "message" of this piece is: I don't see it that clearly. Which of the two sides are they talking about?

It seems to me that the message is basically: "People are mean to me." But what they think should be done about that... I cannot find it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I hope you don’t take this as an insult but I think this is a ridiculous conversation. In our modern age of social media slanderous comments are bound to happen. It isn’t ok but it is what takes place on a regular basis. Rude comments can be made to any person but they are more likely to be made to public figures and that comes with the territory. Just go on Twitter and look at Trump’s comments and you will understand.

You're welcome to express your opinion, and I'm not going to take it as an insult. However, I'm just wondering if the same individuals who say they would like to live in or work toward a more "humanitarian world" are the same ones who casually spout out insult, from whatever political side or media platform or whatnot they may reside upon?

As for Trump, well any application to him hadn't as yet even crossed my mind. I was thinking more about the feelings of people who inhabit any form or fashion.
 
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Freodin

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However, I'm just wondering if the same individuals who say they would like to live in or work toward a more "humanitarian world" are the same ones who casually spout out insult, from whatever political side or media platform or whatnot they may reside upon?
Are they?
Perhaps in some specific cases you might be right... I don't know, I would need examples.

But for the most part: it is quite difficult to determine what kind of world a troll is working toward.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Are they?
Perhaps in some specific cases you might be right... I don't know, I would need examples.

But for the most part: it is quite difficult to determine what kind of world a troll is working toward.

No.
It is trying to distinguish with two different sides a problem.

The first is "how do you deal with bullies?" (or trolls, or critics or well-meaning but unwanted advisors). This is an external problem: what can we do to them to change our feelings about what they do.
The second is "how do you deal with your own feelings about bullies?". That's the "voices in your head" question. This is an internal problem: how to deal with your own feelings.

And regardless of how clear you think the "message" of this piece is: I don't see it that clearly. Which of the two sides are they talking about?

It seems to me that the message is basically: "People are mean to me." But what they think should be done about that... I cannot find it.

It's hard to say which side is being alluded to in the video, I'll admit. Then again, social problems are very much like coins: it's not only that there are two sides to the problem, but in the case of bullying, one side automatically implies the existence of an organic relationship with another side to the same issue. We could deny the other side and just fixate on one side, but then we'd have to wonder what the value of that coin could even be in a social transaction, so to speak.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Are they?
Perhaps in some specific cases you might be right... I don't know, I would need examples.

But for the most part: it is quite difficult to determine what kind of world a troll is working toward.

What are your thoughts on the kind of world a troll may be working on?
 
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Freodin

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What are your thoughts on the kind of world a troll may be working on?
A bridge? Preferable one without any billygoats?

No, seriously: that's why I said that it is difficult to determine. There do exist jerks with good intentions. There are people who are just dumb. There are people who think that getting a raise out of their opponents is a way to a "better world".

It is not possible to discern that based on their trolling alone.

But from your post I gathered that you had in mind people who do say they work towards a "more humanitarian world" and at the same time casually insult people. Perhaps if you could give an example... it doesn't even have to be a named one...
 
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Robban

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I'll just let Jon Foreman and Lindsey Sterling lead us in considering the question since I think their MESSAGE is clear enough:

How should we Deal with "the Voices" in our heads?

Video: VOICES - SWITCHFOOT feat. Lindsey Stirling (version released Nov. 8th, 2019)






Positive critic and negative critic.

Can they be seperated, yes I think so.

Positive critic can be evaluated, pondered over.

Negative critic, a thick skin helps.

In any case people will always talk.

So let them talk.

As for it going to the head, don,t let it go so far.

A lot of negative critic comes from those who think they could do better.

Trying to understand others and how they tick
helps maybe.

In any case,
"Walk a mile in my shoes"

A good way to dismiss gossipers,
and just get on with what you believe in.

I do not know if this is what is meant by the thread, but it is what came to me at any rate.


Haha, without voices in my head.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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A bridge? Preferable one without any billygoats?
... I was thinking that they just didn't want a world with any "Batmans" or red-headed "Mad-Hatters" ... ;)

No, seriously: that's why I said that it is difficult to determine. There do exist jerks with good intentions. There are people who are just dumb. There are people who think that getting a raise out of their opponents is a way to a "better world".
Yes, you're right. There can be quite a spread in a taxonomy that would attempt to list out the various types of motivational positions a person could have in being a troll. However, I'd think that the list would ultimately show that there is at least one kind of troll in the world that basically has no one else's interests in mind but his or her own. Of course, then we'd probably just assume that it would be the job of the authorized "Batmans" of society (i.e. police, etc.) to confront the said "ultra-trolls."

It is not possible to discern that based on their trolling alone.
That may or may not be the case ...

But from your post I gathered that you had in mind people who do say they work towards a "more humanitarian world" and at the same time casually insult people. Perhaps if you could give an example... it doesn't even have to be a named one...
Actually, my post is meant to address any aspects of "the problem" being alluded to in the OP video and isn't expressly or only trying to spot those bullies and/or trolls who speak out of both sides of their mouths.
 
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Freodin

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... I was thinking that they just didn't want a world with any "Batmans" or red-headed "Mad-Hatters" ... ;)
Sorry, I didn't get these allusions.

Yes, you're right. There can be quite a spread in a taxonomy that would attempt to list out the various types of motivational positions a person could have in being a troll. However, I'd think that the list would ultimately show that there is at least one kind of troll in the world that basically has no one else's interests in mind but his or her own. Of course, then we'd probably just assume that it would be the job of the authorized "Batmans" of society (i.e. police, etc.) to confront the said "ultra-trolls."
Well... mean people are mean. If you have any idea of how to change that...

Actually, my post is meant to address any aspects of "the problem" being alluded to in the OP video and isn't expressly or only trying to spot those bullies and/or trolls who speak out of both sides of their mouths.
Again, I don't see any allusions in the video beyond "People are mean to me."

But it was you who expressed your "wondering" if (some of) the people promoting a "more humanitarian world" were the same as those who insult others.
I am simply asking where this idea comes from.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sorry, I didn't get these allusions.
My allusions refer to both 'the Joker' and to the 'Red-Queen.'

Well... mean people are mean. If you have any idea of how to change that...
I do but it's not a popular postion.

Again, I don't see any allusions in the video beyond "People are mean to me."
Might they be implying that people shouldn't be mean? I'm not sure how clearly that has to be spelled out.

But it was you who expressed your "wondering" if (some of) the people promoting a "more humanitarian world" were the same as those who insult others.
I am simply asking where this idea comes from.
It came from my having a dialogue with another poster just above ... and I was asking a further question about the possibilities that may be evident in the range of motivations that drive "meanness." Of course, I know that in asking that, it misses that there might also be ideologies that inherently imply 'force upon others' that have some play in the acts of those who we may perceive as trolls, Fascism and Communism being two such ideologies (both of which I disagree with...)
 
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Freodin

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I do but it's not a popular postion.
I would still like to hear it. Teasing is also not very polite, don't you know?

Might they be implying that people shouldn't be mean? I'm not sure how clearly that has to be spelled out.
They might. Or they might not and only lament that they are.
Lyrical texts do need interpretation, and do not spell out a "clear meaning", even if you think you found one.

It came from my having a dialogue with another poster just above ... and I was asking a further question about the possibilities that may be evident in the range of motivations that drive "meanness." Of course, I know that in asking that, it misses that there might also be ideologies that inherently imply 'force upon others' that have some play in the acts of those who we may perceive as trolls, Fascism and Communism being two such ideologies (both of which I disagree with...)
Hm... ok.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I would still like to hear it. Teasing is also not very polite, don't you know?
My position? If you must know, it would be a position that first takes into account some possible explanations as to why mean ol' trolls exist among us, taking into consideration various sociological theories from the likes of Durkheim all the way up to Pierre Bourdieau, among others, but ultimately ending with Jesus and Friends. :cool:

They might. Or they might not and only lament that they are.
Lyrical texts do need interpretation, and do not spell out a "clear meaning", even if you think you found one.
I think it's clear enough from the overall interlacing contexts which emanate from each of the various, multiple statements in the video that they [the performers] are saying that such behavior is at least disturbing to those who didn't invite it on their performance platform and it's could be considered, by implication, therefore "wrong." I mean, one shouldn't have to be very adept in the use of Hermeneutics to "catch" what is being said. Of course, I realize that there are those who just don't care, either.
 
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Freodin

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My position? If you must know, it would be a position that first takes into account some possible explanations as to why mean ol' trolls exist among us, taking into consideration various sociological theories from the likes of Durkheim all the way up to Pierre Bourdieau, among others, but ultimately ending with Jesus and Friends. :cool:
That didn't answer my question.

I think it's clear enough from the overall interlacing contexts which emanate from each of the various, multiple statements in the video that they [the performers] are saying that such behavior is at least disturbing to those who didn't invite it on their performance platform and it's could be considered, by implication, therefore "wrong." I mean, one shouldn't have to be very adept in the use of Hermeneutics to "catch" what is being said. Of course, I realize that there are those who just don't care, either.
That is exactly the question we are trying to answer here, isn't it? The "internal vs. external" reaction. The question of "how do I deal with it" vs. "how do I stop them?"

If you could point out where this is made "clear" in the video, I would very much appreciate it.
 
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Moral Orel

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No, seriously: that's why I said that it is difficult to determine. There do exist jerks with good intentions. There are people who are just dumb. There are people who think that getting a raise out of their opponents is a way to a "better world".
Sometimes I'm a jerk with good intentions. In some cases, people have opinions that are not just unpopular, but are offensive, and are based on poor reasoning skills. In a perfect world, I would have all the time I needed to hash it out, explain how to reason better, persuade them to change their mind, etc. But I don't have that kind of opportunity for most people. However, if I notice such a person spouting off nonsense, with other possibly impressionable people in attendance, I find it to be a quite quick and dirty, yet effective, tactic to embarrass them for holding their wrong opinion. Sure, I know I'm not going to change their mind; being rude just makes people defensive. But I can make them embarrassed to share their opinion in an attempt to prevent that opinion from spreading.

Racism is a good example. A person citing statistics to support racist notions already shows that they lack the ability to interpret data, or more commonly, they lack the ability to vet the sources that they get their data from. I don't have the opportunity to explain statistics and reliable sources to most folks, but I can get them to associate a feeling of shame and dread with sharing those opinions with others. I can't get some folks to change their mind, but I can get them to shut up, and that's the best goal you can hope for with some opinions.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That didn't answer my question.
Forgive me. What kind of answer would you like? A 100 page, step-by-step break down of all that would be encompassed in better assessing the 'works of trolls' or otherwise mean spirited, verbal aggressors? Yeah, I'm not about to write a book here. But, if we just took Emile Durkeim's idea of Anomie, we might consider that the 'rest of us' may need to clean up our moral acts at least somewhat in order to not cause some folks to become bitter individualized trolls or even, more corporately speaking, Communist Propagandists within our shared society.

That is exactly the question we are trying to answer here, isn't it? The "internal vs. external" reaction. The question of "how do I deal with it" vs. "how do I stop them?"
No, it doesn't have to be seen specifically through that prism. It could instead just be that the video is wanting to bring awareness of the anti-thesis between "how do I deal with this?" vs. "are they wrong in having said such things?" (rather than in "how to stop them?", which is another question altogether.

If you could point out where this is made "clear" in the video, I would very much appreciate it.
I'm fairly certain that it has something to do with the fact that the context is created by the following steps in the production of the video:

1) State at the beginning of the video that the statements within the video are various real-life statements that have been made.

2) Super-impose the obviously derogatory statements upon the faces of the performers, hence implying that no one of a sane state of mind would surely self-deprecate themselves by way of these same statements.

3) End the video by presenting statements of a positive evaluative nature, statements that are dignified, uplifting, helpful, and show value for another human being.

....or something along those lines. :cool:
 
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Freodin

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Forgive me. What kind of answer would you like? A 100 page, step-by-step break down of all that would be encompassed in better assessing the 'works of trolls' or otherwise mean spirited, verbal aggressors? Yeah, I'm not about to write a book here.
So, what kind of answer would you like?
This is obviously a rather complicated topic, without even a clearly defined content. Yet you thought you should make a thread about it, post nothing but a music video, ask people to "consider the question"... which isn't even stated... and then get evasive when people ask for your position on it.

I am not trying to troll you... but considering a more broad interpretation of this thread's question... perhaps you might want to clean up your moral acts before people get frustrated with your words?

But, if we just took Emile Durkeim's idea of Anomie, we might consider that the 'rest of us' may need to clean up our moral acts at least somewhat in order to not cause some folks to become bitter individualized trolls or even, more corporately speaking, Communist Propagandists within our shared society.
I don't know if either Durkheim or Merton have offered a solution for the problem they described. But considering that this problem seems to be one the permeated human history, I don't think they had a valid solution.

And I don't think there can be one, at least not a general one. Regardless of how and why norms fail, there's always those who do not fit into your pattern.

Can you get more people to adhere to societal norms, if these norms and the societies that apply them are of a certain kind? Will you get less "trolls" this way? Yes, probably.

But this ignores the people who aren't jerks because of some societal reasons... but simply because they are jerks. To paraphrase Jesus: "The jerks you will always have with you."

No, it doesn't have to be seen specifically through that prism. It could instead just be that the video is wanting to bring awareness of the anti-thesis between "how do I deal with this?" vs. "are they wrong in having said such things?" (rather than in "how to stop them?", which is another question altogether.
Yes, that could be. That would be a third (fourth?) interpretation now, and at that one that doesn't fall within the original question of your thread.

I'm fairly certain that it has something to do with the fact that the context is created by the following steps in the production of the video:

1) State at the beginning of the video that the statements within the video are various real-life statements that have been made.

2) Super-impose the obviously derogatory statements upon the faces of the performers, hence implying that no one of a sane state of mind would surely self-deprecate themselves by way of these same statements.

3) End the video by presenting statements of a positive evaluative nature, statements that are dignified, uplifting, helpful, and show value for another human being.

....or something along those lines. :cool:
That still doesn't solve the distinction between internal and external... which, as much as you want to ignore it, is a question that needs to be dealt with.
Is this the way they internally deal with this problem - by countering it with positive messages - or is this the reaction they want to get from the outside sources? Or both? Or perhaps they just want to raise awareness that there are all kinds of people out there: nice and mean?
 
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