What Was the Author's Intent Here?

yeshuaslavejeff

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Because, we cannot ASK the author of their intent.
He Reveals His Intent, His Meaning, as He Pleases.

Not to those who reject Jesus though. (as far as I know or am aware).

We ask Him frequently every day for wisdom and for help in time of need, and HE hears and grants our requests according to His Word and His Will as this is His Good Pleasure so to do.
 
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cvanwey

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Of course I ignored it, it was just a bunch of questions except for the one assertion which I showed was wrong. If you want to claim it was common knowledge that the earth was flat when and where it was written then give evidence for it. Your quote from "Psychology Today" is from the Middle Ages of EUROPE, Not Greece/Rome. I told you that we have documentation that there was a discussion of spherical earth as far back as the 5th Century BC (*1) in Greece and established by the 3rd century BC when the circumference of the earth was calculated. This was during the Hellenistic period for which the Jews were a part of and were influenced by.

I will not answer any questions. That should be clear to you by now. I have given evidence for my claim. You have not. Your quote from "Psychology Today" doesn't even cover the region in question. All you did was google search a quote and didn't even bother to know or care what you are quoting. If you have evidence for you claim then make it, otherwise you are wasting both of our time.

1 Dicks, D.R. (1970). Early Greek Astronomy to Aristotle. Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press. pp. 72–198. ISBN 978-0-8014-0561-7.

If you would have simply said any of this in post #77, then I would also have to possibly eventually concede another added point, along with the 'local region' option in post #21. But we are not quite there yet, see below... All you stated was:


"There is documentation about spherical earth as far back as the 5th century BC and is considered to be established by the 3rd century BC. So your assertion of consensus is mistaken."

If you would have referenced anything about the author adopting Hellenistic astronomy, then yes, we would not be wasting more time. In the future, please elaborate a bit :)

However, you may have a little bit more work to do, before I concede your assertion :)

But quite frankly, on a side note, as I stated in my last post, we can't ASK the author.
Hence, it might still be more unfalsifiable than I original thought...?

2 questions I really hope you can answer. And one point to address please in red:

1. Who wrote this verse and when?
2. How do you know the author adopted Hellenistic astronomy? The reason I ask this question, is tied directly to the given quote provided below in black/blue.....
3. Late antiquity did not start until the 3rd century.

And pardon that I have to 'google' this... It's not like I have a shelf full of dusty old books to reference ;)


"The earliest documented mention of the spherical Earth concept dates from around the 5th century BC, when it was mentioned by ancient Greek philosophers.[1][2] It remained a matter of speculation until the 3rd century BC, when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the Earth as a physical fact and calculated the Earth's circumference. The paradigm was gradually adopted throughout the Old World during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.[3][4][5][6] A practical demonstration of Earth's sphericity was achieved by Ferdinand Magellan and Juan Sebastián Elcano's circumnavigation (1519–1522).[7]"

Hence, my assertion of consensus stands. It would appear it was not adopted until after this verse was written?????? Unless you can somehow demonstrate the author did in fact adopt this form of astronomy?
 
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Sanoy

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If you would have simply said any of this in post #77, then I would also have to possibly eventually concede another added point, along with the 'local region' option in post #21. But we are not quite there yet, see below... All you stated was:

"There is documentation about spherical earth as far back as the 5th century BC and is considered to be established by the 3rd century BC. So your assertion of consensus is mistaken."

If you would have referenced anything about the author adopting Hellenistic astronomy, then yes, we would not be wasting more time. In the future, please elaborate a bit :)

However, you may have a little bit more work to do, before I concede your assertion :)

But quite frankly, on a side note, as I stated in my last post, we can't ASK the author.
Hence, it might still be more unfalsifiable than I original thought...?

2 questions I really hope you can answer. And one point to address please in red:

1. Who wrote this verse and when?
2. How do you know the author adopted Hellenistic astronomy? The reason I ask this question, is tied directly to the given quote provided below in black/blue.....
3. Late antiquity did not start until the 3rd century.

And pardon that I have to 'google' this... It's not like I have a shelf full of dusty old books to reference ;)


"The earliest documented mention of the spherical Earth concept dates from around the 5th century BC, when it was mentioned by ancient Greek philosophers.[1][2] It remained a matter of speculation until the 3rd century BC, when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the Earth as a physical fact and calculated the Earth's circumference. The paradigm was gradually adopted throughout the Old World during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.[3][4][5][6] A practical demonstration of Earth's sphericity was achieved by Ferdinand Magellan and Juan Sebastián Elcano's circumnavigation (1519–1522).[7]"

Hence, my assertion of consensus stands. It would appear it was not adopted until after this verse was written?????? Unless you can somehow demonstrate the author did in fact adopt this form of astronomy?
It doesn't matter if I elaborate your intent is to perpetually reject everything a Christian says. I am not answering questions, I have made that clear, stop asking and start making statements. Do you know what the "old world" is???? Asia, Africa and Europe...nearly the everything but N/S America! The center of the discussion, and confirmation of the spherical earth was Greece during and before Hellenization.
 
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cvanwey

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It doesn't matter if I elaborate your intent is to perpetually reject everything a Christian says. I am not answering questions, I have made that clear, stop asking and start making statements. Do you know what the "old world" is???? Asia, Africa and Europe...nearly the everything but N/S America! The center of the discussion, and confirmation of the spherical earth was Greece during and before Hellenization.

Okay, I'm done with you. Even if what you state of this author is true, I was asking other questions of relevance. I'm actually trying to engage in a fruitful discussion; which lends to the OP. Furthermore, I have conceded Christian responses. You are just being selective.

Please do not address any of my future posts.
 
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NBB

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I always thought going high in the mountain was not to show all the kingdoms of the world, since that even if the world were to be flat is impossible due to atmosphere, i always thought he showed all the kingdoms of the world like in visions etc. and being high in the mountain was because of somethin else, also if you are high in a mountain what can you see? the nearest city maybe, you can't show all 'the splendor' and 'riches' etc of the all kingdoms, that doesn't make any sense.
 
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ChetSinger

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I always thought going high in the mountain was not to show all the kingdoms of the world, since that even if the world were to be flat is impossible due to atmosphere, i always thought he showed all the kingdoms of the world like in visions etc. and being high in the mountain was because of somethin else, also if you are high in a mountain what can you see? the nearest city maybe, you can't show all 'the splendor' and 'riches' etc of the all kingdoms, that doesn't make any sense.
I also think it was a vision, because in Luke it occurs "in a moment of time".

As for the mountain, mountaintops and high places have been used throughout ANE history for meetings with the supernatural. Eden was a mountain, as was Mt. Sinai, Mt. Hermon, the location of the transfiguration, the high places where the Israelites worshiped other gods, etc. Even Jesus himself would go off to pray on mountains.

Myself, I don't think the temptation of Christ has anything to do with the geometry of the earth.
 
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Sanoy

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Okay, I'm done with you. Even if what you state of this author is true, I was asking other questions of relevance. I'm actually trying to engage in a fruitful discussion; which lends to the OP. Furthermore, I have conceded Christian responses. You are just being selective.

Please do not address any of my future posts.
I am here to defend Christianity per the SOP when I see the need too. I will continue to do so wherever it is attacked because that is the SOP.

"As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue."

If you want to make threads give reasons for why your belief is true. Questions are not reasons.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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cvanwey said:
Was this presented story meant to be taken literally, or figuratively
If literal, which appears more highly likely, then this may almost certainly suggest that the author assumed the world was flat - as the passage is assuming the entire "world's" kingdoms/villages/cities/other could be seen, simply by moving up higher.

"8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor."

If one wishes to instead argue that such a statement has more of a figurative meaning, or maybe meant to suggest something other than the apparent straight forward assertion, then by all means... Please correct accordingly?

It's the simple passages above, which suggests that Bible author(s) did not have the foreknowledge to discern that the world was not flat. Nor, did Jesus offer correction of this now mundane piece of knowledge.
The NT, and particularly the book of Revelation, has the same type of Hebrew symbolism as is in the OT, and is in fact, drawn from the Hebrew OT.

For example, both Ezekiel and Revelation mention taken in spirit and Jerusalem.

Note the similarity of Ezekiel 8:3, Matthew 4-8 and Revelation chapters 17 and 21.

Ezekiel 8:3

He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.[Revelation 17:3]

Matthew 4:8 biblehub + commentaries

Matthew 4:
1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tried by the Devil.
5 Then the Devil taketh him up into the holy city, and stands Him on a pinnacle of the Temple,
8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”
-----------------------------------------------
Revelation 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in Spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten. [Ezekiel 8:3]
'
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"
==============================
A thread on it:

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

An interesting site concerning the Symbolism in Revelation:

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!.....................

EZEKIEL AND REVELATION PARALLEL
This is a "cosmic mountain".........................By taking Him to the mountain he is taking Him to the heavenly realm above the earth. For a modern reader we just see height, but for the ancient audience this is theological messaging regarding the heavenly realm.
Good post.................
 
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cvanwey

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Believe it or not, as I told @Sanoy in PM, I may have to concede this prior conclusion. I also feel this topic is loosing steam. Reasons:

1. If the verse was speaking about seeing a local region, and going up high enough could visualize this entire region, then case closed.
2. If the author DID adopt Hellenistic astronomy, then the author would have already known the earth was not flat, and case closed.

These two ifs alone, raise pause.... I now more-so realize that this topic might be more of a unfalsifiable one. Because as I told another... You can't ask them of their intent.


However, this additional provided one below... I'm sorry, but I do not see the connection? See below....


The NT, and particularly the book of Revelation, has the same type of Hebrew symbolism as is in the OT, and is in fact, drawn from the Hebrew OT.

For example, both Ezekiel and Revelation mention taken in spirit and Jerusalem.

Note the similarity of Ezekiel 8:3, Matthew 4-8 and Revelation chapters 17 and 21.

Ezekiel 8:3

He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.[Revelation 17:3]

I agree here.... Lots of symbolism.

Matthew 4:
1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tried by the Devil.
5 Then the Devil taketh him up into the holy city, and stands Him on a pinnacle of the Temple,
8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”

I see a little more literalism in the 'important' parts here....

In verse 1, Jesus looks to have been led into a known physical worldly location, just away from others.
In verse 5, I'm pretty sure the holy city was in reference to a known worldly place. I'm also fairly confident going to the top the temple was still referencing a worldly location.

Hence, in verse 8, it could also be argued that the author was referring to the mountain as a known earthly physical mountain.

But again, if I now consider that maybe the author suggested that going up this mountain COULD see all known kingdoms, then we still do not have a problem?.?.?
 
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NBB

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Believe it or not, as I told @Sanoy in PM, I may have to concede this prior conclusion. I also feel this topic is loosing steam. Reasons:

1. If the verse was speaking about seeing a local region, and going up high enough could visualize this entire region, then case closed.
2. If the author DID adopt Hellenistic astronomy, then the author would have already known the earth was not flat, and case closed.

These two ifs alone, raise pause.... I now more-so realize that this topic might be more of a falsifiable one. Because as I told another... You can't ask them of their intent.


However, this additional provided one below... I'm sorry, but I do not see the connection? See below....




I agree here.... Lots of symbolism.



I see a little more literalism in the 'important' parts here....

In verse 1, Jesus looks to have been led into a known physical worldly location, just away from others.
In verse 5, I'm pretty sure the holy city was in reference to a known worldly place. I'm also fairly confident going to the top the temple was still referencing a worldly location.

Hence, in verse 8, it could also be argued that the author was referring to the mountain as a known earthly physical mountain.

But again, if I now consider that maybe the author suggested that going up this mountain COULD see all known kingdoms, then we still do not have a problem?.?.?

You can't see 'the glory' of all kingdoms from a high mountain, you can barely see the nearest city at most, everyone knows this, so the author, so it was visions. Hard to comprehend maybe for an atheist or someone like that, but visions in christianity is a more common thing.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The NT, and particularly the book of Revelation, has the same type of Hebrew symbolism as is in the OT, and is in fact, drawn from the Hebrew OT.
For example, both Ezekiel and Revelation mention taken in spirit and Jerusalem.
Note the similarity of Ezekiel 8:3, Matthew 4-8 and Revelation chapters 17 and 21.

Ezekiel 8:3

He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.[Revelation 17:3]

Matthew 4:8 biblehub + commentaries

Matthew 4:
1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tried by the Devil.
5 Then the Devil taketh him up into the holy city, and stands Him on a pinnacle of the Temple,
8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”
-----------------------------------------------
Revelation 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in Spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten. [Ezekiel 8:3]
'
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"
==============================
I see a little more literalism in the 'important' parts here....

In verse 1, Jesus looks to have been led into a known physical worldly location, just away from others.
In verse 5, I'm pretty sure the holy city was in reference to a known worldly place. I'm also fairly confident going to the top the temple was still referencing a worldly location.

Hence, in verse 8, it could also be argued that the author was referring to the mountain as a known earthly physical mountain.

But again, if I now consider that maybe the author suggested that going up this mountain COULD see all known kingdoms, then we still do not have a problem?.?.?
Hence, in verse 8, it could also be argued that the author was referring to the mountain as a known earthly physical mountain.
But again, if I now consider that maybe the author suggested that going up this mountain COULD see all known kingdoms, then we still do not have a problem?.?.?
If one views the OT and NT as "covenantle", Mt Sinai/Old Jerusalem vs Mt Zion/New Jerusalem then I believe that would bring more clarification to the entire Bible.

Remember also that the Jews of today do not read the New Testament and in particular the Book of Revelation.
Jesus spoke to a mainly Jewish audience and including the corrupt Jewish rulers, and most would have known the OT.

Another example of "mountain"

Matthew 21:21
Yet Jesus answering said to them, "amen I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting<1252>, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast into the Sea!', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Hebrews 12:
18 For you have not come to a Mountain that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,
Deuteronomy 4:11 And ye draw near and stand under the Mountain, and the Mountain is burning with fire unto the heart of the Heavens — darkness, cloud, yea, thick darkness:
Exodus 19:16 And it cometh to pass, on the third day, while it is morning, that there are voices, and lightnings, and a heavy cloud, on the Mount, and the sound of a Trumpet very strong
Revelation 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets, and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,
==========================

Has anyone here read Josephus' writings on the Jewish Wars and destruction of 70AD Jerusalem?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,

if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance.
===========================

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>


Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."

ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline
I always thought going high in the mountain was not to show all the kingdoms of the world, since that even if the world were to be flat is impossible due to atmosphere, i always thought he showed all the kingdoms of the world like in visions etc. and being high in the mountain was because of somethin else, also if you are high in a mountain what can you see? the nearest city maybe, you can't show all 'the splendor' and 'riches' etc of the all kingdoms, that doesn't make any sense.
Indeed.............

I also think it was a vision, because in Luke it occurs "in a moment of time".
As for the mountain, mountaintops and high places have been used throughout ANE history for meetings with the supernatural. Eden was a mountain, as was Mt. Sinai, Mt. Hermon, the location of the transfiguration, the high places where the Israelites worshiped other gods, etc. Even Jesus himself would go off to pray on mountains.
Myself, I don't think the temptation of Christ has anything to do with the geometry of the earth.
Great post!!!
 
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