The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Dave L

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I agree, but Scripture is still quite explicit that we must do works for the right reason- that what we do counts and that he Spirit gives us the means to do it.
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6
And that kind of love comes only by grace.
If it is conjured up it is not genuine.
 
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Free will shares God's glory. No way around it.
I agree, and God always wills to share His glory!!! For God's glory is one and the same as God's Love and His very Life, the sharing of which, is God's motive for making creatures in His own image and likeness in the first place. We're not going to fall for that old serpent's trick of painting God as a being whose motivation is pride and a succumbing to vainglory, are we?

Grace reveals a far greater understanding of what it is to be "saved by grace, through faith", than is arrived at through mere, fallen human reasoning on Scriptural passages; a sort of reasoning that is removed from the participation in the glory of God which inspired the writing thereof.
 
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With only a few. Not with the many on the wide road to desruction, etc....
1 Timothy 2:4

Grace is that which purifies your heart. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they are able to see God (Matthew 5:8). To see God is to know God, as one having become by grace as God is by nature (2 Peter 1:4). Those who know God, and are known by God, also are fully aware that "God wills all men to be saved, and to come to knowledge of the Truth (knowledge of Him, Who says "I am the Truth"). Thus, there must be something preventing all men from coming to know Him. That "something" can be nothing other than our having been made with the capacity to choose.
 
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Dave L

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I agree, and God always wills to share His glory!!! For God's glory is one and the same as God's Love and His very Life, the sharing of which, is God's motive for making creatures in His own image and likeness in the first place. We're not going to fall for that old serpent's trick of painting God as a being whose motivation is pride and a succumbing to vainglory, are we?

Grace reveals a far greater understanding of what it is to be "saved by grace, through faith", than is arrived at through mere, fallen human reasoning on Scriptural passages; a sort of reasoning that is removed from the participation in the glory of God which inspired the writing thereof.
It means people save themselves and God picks up the scraps of credit.
 
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1 Timothy 2:4
5 Bible Verses You're Probably Using Out of Context - Beliefnet
5 Bible Verses You're Probably Using Out of Context
Jeremiah 29:11 is a great example of a verse that was spoken to a particular people, at a particular time, but is now often taken out of context and applied to individual readers.

3 Most Tempting Scriptures to Yank Out of Context
3 Most Tempting Scriptures to Yank Out of Context
Aug 6, 2014Here are 3 of the most tempting Scriptures to yank out of context: 1. "The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still." -Exodus 14:14. While comforting, this passage is often misinterpreted to mean that we can sit back and take a passive approach to life's battles. The context suggests something far different.

7 Bible Verses You May Be Taking Out of Context - Boundless
7 Bible Verses You May Be Taking Out of Context
Jun 19, 2018It's easy to take a verse out of context, yet it's vital to consider each command and passage in light of the surrounding verses and the overarching story of redemption. And of course, by remembering the first great commandment — to love God — and the second — to love others as ourselves — we can look at the Bible through the lens of relationship and consider how to treat each other the way Christ would.
 
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It means people save themselves and God picks up the scraps of credit.
Not at all. People do not have the power to save themselves. That power is the grace of God, as dispensed by the Holy Spirit. The question is, do we want to receive that grace, or do we prefer to remain enslaved to our sins? God is not concerned about who gets credit for anything. God wills all men to be saved and to know Him. God is Love (according to Scripture and to the knowledge revealed by grace). God is not pride. God is not vainglory. The serpent told Eve that God is a hoarder of His own glory. It was a lie then, and it is a lie now as well.
 
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Dave L

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Not at all. People do not have the power to save themselves. That power is the grace of God, as dispensed by the Holy Spirit. The question is, do we want to receive that grace, or do we prefer to remain enslaved to our sins? God is not concerned about who gets credit for anything. God wills all men to be saved and to know Him. God is Love (according to Scripture and to the knowledge revealed by grace). God is not pride. God is not vainglory. The serpent told Eve that God is a hoarder of His own glory. It was a lie then, and it is a lie now as well.
If people will for God to save them, they save themselves.
 
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If people will for God to save them, they save themselves.
How so? For even existence/life is the gift of God, brought about by His power (grace), and thus, even human will is His gift to us, as is our ability to use it. All good and perfect gifts are from above, coming down from the Father of heavenly lights (James 1:17). This includes the gift of freewill, which endows man with the image and likeness of God. To deny this gift of God - the gift of freewill - is to deny the very Love of God which is alone the very motive and source of this gift. This results in a grotesque distortion of the face of God, in the likeness of that distorted face that was presented to our mother, Eve, in the Genesis account. True grace, coming by the Holy Spirit through our faith which brings forth fruits of repentance, illumines our hearts and minds to receive the correct understanding of the Gospel teachings.

As already stated: Grace alone brings us to real knowledge of God. When a person is filled up with enough grace, then there is no need for us not to accept the real meaning of what Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy: that God wills all men to be saved, and to come to knowledge of the Truth (i.e. the knowledge of Him Who says "I am the Truth"), and that it is the misused will of men who prevent this, because God willed this to be allowed. This knowledge is "relational". It proceeds from the experience of personal relationship with the Lord. Many Bible scholars, even those with minds as powerful and brilliant as John Calvin, did not necessarily possess adequate relational knowledge of the saving kind. We will do well to give this possibility great consideration before committing ourselves to their teachings.

Many doctrines of salvation, those produced from the minds of men who were yet, or always too carnal to have the mind of Christ, are false doctrines that distort God's face to those who are taught them. Pride of the intellect, that most difficult if not impossible condition to be overcome and be saved from, is the mother that gives birth to such teachings from men.
 
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Dave L

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How so? For even existence/life is the gift of God, brought about by His power (grace), and thus, even human will is His gift to us, as is our ability to use it. All good and perfect gifts are from above, coming down from the Father of heavenly lights (James 1:17). This includes the gift of freewill, which endows man with the image and likeness of God. To deny this gift of God - the gift of freewill - is to deny the very Love of God which is alone the very motive and source of this gift. This results in a grotesque distortion of the face of God, in the likeness of that distorted face that was presented to our mother, Eve, in the Genesis account. True grace, coming by the Holy Spirit through our faith which brings forth fruits of repentance, illumines our hearts and minds to receive the correct understanding of the Gospel teachings.

As already stated: Grace alone brings us to real knowledge of God. When a person is filled up with enough grace, then there is no need for us not to accept the real meaning of what Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy: that God wills all men to be saved, and to come to knowledge of the Truth (i.e. the knowledge of Him Who says "I am the Truth"), and that it is the misused will of men who prevent this, because God willed this to be allowed. This knowledge is "relational". It proceeds from the experience of personal relationship with the Lord. Many Bible scholars, even those with minds as powerful and brilliant as John Calvin, did not necessarily possess adequate relational knowledge of the saving kind. We will do well to give this possibility great consideration before committing ourselves to their teachings.

Many doctrines of salvation, those produced from the minds of men who were yet, or always too carnal to have the mind of Christ, are false doctrines that distort God's face to those who are taught them. Pride of the intellect, that most difficult if not impossible condition to be overcome and be saved from, is the mother that gives birth to such teachings from men.
The will never enters into salvation.
 
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Yes, but not into their salvation (if saved). It was all in God's hands.
Everything has always been in God's hands. We would never deny this. But we would also never deny that men are created with freewill by God, and that human will is an active participant in God's plan.

We would never deny this truth for two very important reasons:

One, because it is truly impossible to reconcile the idea that the human will is not active in the relationship with God, with our knowledge of God that comes by grace. and...

two, because it is truly impossible to reconcile the idea that the human will is not active in the relationship with God with what Saint Paul wrote to Timothy about God's will for all men to be saved and to come to Love (know) Him.

Ya just can't reconcile these things. To add, we also have a problem with the idea that God's unfathomable sovereignty is so limited that God cannot design a plan for creation in which man's freewill and God's foreknowledge of how every single person will use it are not resolved perfectly within God's unknowable providence, so as to make it necessary to deny that the will of those whom God made in His own image and likeness is active in the relationship with God, whether leading to salvation, or to damnation.
 
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5 Bible Verses You're Probably Using Out of Context - Beliefnet
5 Bible Verses You're Probably Using Out of Context
Jeremiah 29:11 is a great example of a verse that was spoken to a particular people, at a particular time, but is now often taken out of context and applied to individual readers.

3 Most Tempting Scriptures to Yank Out of Context
3 Most Tempting Scriptures to Yank Out of Context
Aug 6, 2014Here are 3 of the most tempting Scriptures to yank out of context: 1. "The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still." -Exodus 14:14. While comforting, this passage is often misinterpreted to mean that we can sit back and take a passive approach to life's battles. The context suggests something far different.

7 Bible Verses You May Be Taking Out of Context - Boundless
7 Bible Verses You May Be Taking Out of Context
Jun 19, 2018It's easy to take a verse out of context, yet it's vital to consider each command and passage in light of the surrounding verses and the overarching story of redemption. And of course, by remembering the first great commandment — to love God — and the second — to love others as ourselves — we can look at the Bible through the lens of relationship and consider how to treat each other the way Christ would.
When regarding the context in which Paul writes to Timothy that God wills all men to be saved and to come to Love (know) Him, it is impossible to take from this saying anything other than what is explicitly stated about God's will for all men; that they all be saved and come to Love Him.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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When regarding the context in which Paul writes to Timothy that God wills all men to be saved and to come to Love (know) Him, it is impossible to take from this saying anything other than what is explicitly stated about God's will for all men; that they all be saved and come to Love Him.
Partly correct (thus partly and grievously in serious error with the false gospels) in the way such logic of men is used to try to constrain or confine or explain God in a more "favorable" way to men, as if God was not totally Perfect and Just in condemning those who are stated in His Word to be condemned for their unbelief, ALREADY.
 
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Partly correct (thus partly and grievously in serious error with the false gospels) in the way such logic of men is used to try to constrain or confine or explain God in a more "favorable" way to men, as if God was not totally Perfect and Just in condemning those who are stated in His Word to be condemned for their unbelief, ALREADY.
Unbelief is the sinful condition resulting from the active pursuit of being a willful slave of sinful passions, and is the result of the misuse of the will that is given to each man by God. Thus, each man is responsible for and at fault for not believing God. It's not God Who is leads people to sinful unbelief. It is the personal desires (will) of people who do this (James 1:13-15).
 
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Dave L

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Everything has always been in God's hands. We would never deny this. But we would also never deny that men are created with freewill by God, and that human will is an active participant in God's plan.

We would never deny this truth for two very important reasons:

One, because it is truly impossible to reconcile the idea that the human will is not active in the relationship with God, with our knowledge of God that comes by grace. and...

two, because it is truly impossible to reconcile the idea that the human will is not active in the relationship with God with what Saint Paul wrote to Timothy about God's will for all men to be saved and to come to Love (know) Him.

Ya just can't reconcile these things. To add, we also have a problem with the idea that God's unfathomable sovereignty is so limited that God cannot design a plan for creation in which man's freewill and God's foreknowledge of how every single person will use it are not resolved perfectly within God's unknowable providence, so as to make it necessary to deny that the will of those whom God made in His own image and likeness is active in the relationship with God, whether leading to salvation, or to damnation.
We lost free will in the Fall. We only choose sin unless born again.
 
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We lost free will in the Fall. We only choose sin unless born again.
I'm sorry, brother, but we won't find agreement on this. If what you are saying is true about fallen man, then God is lying to the fallen Cain when He speaks the following unto him: “Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it.” (Genesis 4)

In this exchange between the Creator and His Creature, the Creator tells His fallen creature that he must master his desire to be sinful, and that if he doesn't, it is because he is refusing to do so, on account of his own will. He therefor indicates that it is Cain's own free choice that is responsible for any wrongdoing that he is guilty of.

Freewill was not lost, only weakened on account of the fallen condition into which all are born, which causes us to become afflicted with the disease of sin, spreading to us from the environment into which we are introduced. Even the most wretchedly evil of human beings contains within them the image and likeness of God, which of necessity must include a human will. So no, the will is not lost; only injured.
 
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Dave L

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I'm sorry, brother, but we won't find agreement on this. If what you are saying is true about fallen man, then God is lying to the fallen Cain when He speaks the following unto him: “Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it.” (Genesis 4)

In this exchange between the Creator and His Creature, the Creator tells His fallen creature that he must master his desire to be sinful, and that if he doesn't, it is because he is refusing to do so, on account of his own will. He therefor indicates that it is Cain's own free choice that is responsible for any wrongdoing that he is guilty of.

Freewill was not lost, only weakened on account of the fallen condition into which all are born, which causes us to become afflicted with the disease of sin, spreading to us from the environment into which we are introduced. Even the most wretchedly evil of human beings contains within them the image and likeness of God, which of necessity must include a human will. So no, the will is not lost; only injured.
He was speaking about Cain's temper. Not salvation.
 
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