God is in Control and Man has free will?

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yeshuaslavejeff

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And what Calvinists do has to do with me how
In context of your life on earth, and participating in forums or churches or with other people,
they may make things more difficult,
seeming to distract people sometimes with much persuasiveness
possibly to error and to not doing what needs done, or to doing what should not be done.
i.e. they might be affecting your life a lot, wittingly or unwittingly.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Prophecy itself is proof that we do not control our own will, and that we are predestined.
So what is prophesied over your life such that you know the day of your death and other details. Lets see if your theory is true in your life.
Prayer is supposed to be conversation and alignment to the will of the Most High God;
Where did Jesus teach this when he taught us to pray?
the point of prayer is not to change His mind, because you cannot change His mind.
Yes you can. Some have done so openly. Read the OT.
Everything that will happen has already happened; humans just think linearly when it comes to time, so it is hard to understand predestination while at the same time defending it in terms of spirituality.
Jesus only came once. He hadn’t come before. So that’s not true.
It is a post-Enlightenment romanticism to believe you control your own destiny;
We don’t control it but we definitely affect it.
most of the East (where "Christianity" came from) understands there is an order that we follow that has already been established:
Eastern religion does this, true. Christianity does not. We have free will and that’s influences our destiny.
the physical laws and motion of the creation has been set, and we are part of creation, and under the order (especially as fallen creatures).
No, we are separated and biology works against physical laws.
If you think you have control over the cross you bear, then you may not understand the role the Most High God has in our trajectory - which is TOTAL.
Jesus told us to take up our cross. He didn’t say we have no control over this.
We don't choose anything in this life except how to respond to life circumstances.
God and man hold us responsible for our choices.
That is our "freedom": to show how we would react to a fallen world as a spirit inhabiting a physical vessel.
Where is that view in the Bible?
I am not a Calvanist, and you are free to ignore anything I have said. I understand everyone has personal spiritual and physical limits, and I respect yours.
You haven’t begun to explore my personal or spiritual limits. Not even close.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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You really must be kidding.
Not at all. Where does God describe his ways as you believe them to be? But I’ll let you off the hook. It’s not there anywhere and He’s not as you describe.

You said,”God, filling Heaven and earth as He does, makes innumerable decision for every one decision of ours. Those decisions form paradigms in which we make our un coerced choices and God knew what those choices would be before He acted in those innumerable ways to form that particular paradigm resulting in those particular choices by us out of our free will.” Where does He say that his choices form
paradigms in which we make choices? Where does he say his particular choices form that paradigm resulting is our particular choices?

The truth is “the eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the whole earth that they might find the one whose heart is completely his, that He might fully support him.”
 
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Dorothy Mae

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And what Calvinists do has to do with me how?:scratch:
Your theology is like Calvinist even if you don’t like the title. A rose by any other name...

Just point out where you differ. I’m open.
 
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Kaon

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So what is prophesied over your life such that you know the day of your death and other details. Lets see if your theory is true in your life.

If the prophecy came from the Most High God, it is true. I don't pay attention to oracles or entities that express psionic affinity unless they have been sent by the Most High God - a spiritual judgment I trust He will endow upon me, as well as educate me in.

The fact that prophecy comes true as the prophet describes should show up that there is something about the Hellenistic idea of FATE - namely, that FATE may control us, but the Most High God controls FATE. Everything that will happen has already happened; humans are handicapped by our linear thinking, reason and logic.

Where did Jesus teach this when he taught us to pray?

The Redeemer taught us how to pray for the will of the Father - not for our own will, or for things to "go right in our lives". That is not the objective of this life; to understand the Law of the Most High God and to love Him through it all is the point of this life. The rules and regulations have already been founded; we just need to represent Him correctly, and honestly.


Yes you can. Some have done so openly. Read the OT.

You are confusing a human aligning their will with the will of the Most High God. When we actually understand this is also part of the point of our existence, all of our prayers will come true.

The only entities that have 100% free will are Holy Entities - and they give 100% of their free will to the Most High God, trusting His Judgment only.

Jesus only came once. He hadn’t come before. So that’s not true.

The Son of Man came to this plane of existence once, and died. Then, He came back to show His resurrected body.

The Word of God (who Yehoshuah actually is) has always existed, and anytime someone heard "God" talking to them, they are hearing the literal Word of God. When the patriarchs saw God, they saw His Image - the Definition of the Redeemer/Yehoshuah/Son of God.

Everything that will happen has already happened. Time is not linear.
We don’t control it but we definitely affect it.

You don't do either. Your destiny has already been; what you are seeing is the slow reel of your life to let you know why you deserve the afterlife you already have. That is why you should always pray for the will of the Father, and for your soul to be saved.

Eastern religion does this, true. Christianity does not. We have free will and that’s influences our destiny.

Christianity comes from the Hebrews - an Eastern spiritual path.


No, we are separated and biology works against physical laws.

Biology does not work against physical laws; biochemistry is dictated by electric potential - which is related to FORCE (which is the foundation of physics). Still, human physics is absolutely abysmal when considering Creation, and its order. That is why we always run to and fro with knowledge, and never really get anywhere. We are handicapped by our logic and reason.


Jesus told us to take up our cross. He didn’t say we have no control over this.

And yet, some people believe they can pray away their trials and tribulations established for them - to refine them and make them perfect/upright before the Most High God. The thought that one can change the mind of the Most High God (and, therefore the trajectory of one's life) is a reason why some people end up leaving Him and becoming ex-Christian. Our want for control is a carnal handicap.


God and man hold us responsible for our choices.

Only the Most High God holds Creation responsible for its choices; man is irrelevant in judging man under the Most High God. Nevertheless, we don't get to choose our destiny or life; we get the freedom to respond to those stimuli in our lives as spiritual entities in a physical body.

Where is that view in the Bible?

Everywhere. The Word of God tells us how to pray:

Our Father (Holy is His name), who is in heaven: His Kingdom come and will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven.

Give us, this day, our daily bread, and forgive us for our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from all evil.

Yours is the Kingdom, Power and Glory forever.
You say this so you remind yourself prayer is a conversation between you and your Father, not an attempt to try to change His will to align to yours. We should be aligning our will to His, and we should be asking for everything according to His will. This psychological, spiritual and physical act of "letting go," and letting Him take control goes beyond the cliche application: you make an agreement to forego your own wants in order to align yourself to the Most High God.

This is why "free will" is a misnomer at best; we never had "free" anything because we are fallen entities. We will always have boundaries on us since we are fallen. We have the luxury to respond to the things that happen to us, and we get to see why we deserve to be where we already are in spirit through our actions and decisions on this plane of existence.

As another poster alluded to: will you be the ant that tries to find the right path despite the distractions of more attractive pheromone-scented paths? Or, will you - despite all of your God given intellect - choose to go down the wrong path out of spite, or ignorance? We have set up this duality trap for ourselves; when we become Holy, we will have free will (but, we will have the wisdom to abdicate it all to the Most High God).

Trying to bend the laws of nature to your will is called sorcery.
You haven’t begun to explore my personal or spiritual limits. Not even close.

I said people have personal spiritual and physical limits (psychological, intellectual) - which I understand. I made no attempt to explore your personal spiritual or physical limits, but you said

Ah, a Calvinist...that explains all. The rest I deleted it without reading as much as I could. The theology is too cruel for the eyes.
Despite my faith-designation, you told me I was a Calvanist, and then you said that you deleted what I wrote without reading it since the "theology" was too cruel for your eyes. These sound like personal limitations - the assumptions, the inability to entertain something without necessarily believing it, and the wilful ignorance/"deletion". If you weren't describing your personal physical limitations concerning my post (intellect, ignorance, psychology, willingness to continue, cruelty to your eyes, etc.), then what was your point? Surely, you weren't being dismissive.
 
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renniks

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In that case, there is no such thing. All our decisions are based on our experiences from the inner or outside world.
There's a difference between being influenced and controlled by influences. We have the ability to weigh options and make a free decision.
 
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renniks

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I do not think so. If He is God in whom all reality has its existence, then it has much more relevance to a discussion about His control than when we talk about some local planetary god.

He has a total control over everything, because everything exists in Him.
But he can choose not to control his creations actions. If God was meticulously controlling us, it would be disingenuous to complain about our disobedience.
 
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His student

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The truth is “the eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the whole earth that they might find the one whose heart is completely his, that He might fully support him.”
Just as the scriptures say. Where did you get the idea that I felt otherwise?
Your theology is like Calvinist even if you don’t like the title.
Actually I differ considerably with Calvinists..

If any of my original post smacked of Calvinism in some ways it’s only because they (just like you) have some truth in their theology along with some error.

Your obviously anti-Calvinist reactions to me and to others here leads me to think that you automatically get your hackles up over anything that even remotely endorses something believed by those dreaded Calvinists.

Of course that’s quite common here in this section of the forum.
Just point out where you differ. I’m open.
I don’t believe in total depravity as usually taught by Calvinists.

I don’t believe in unconditional election as usually taught by Calvinists.

I don’t believe in limited atonement as usually taught by Calvinists.

I don’t believe in irresistible grace as usually taught by Calvinists.

I don’t believe in the perseverance of the saints as usually taught by Calvinists.

All of the 5 points would make a nice acrostic for a general statement on soteriology if a person were to use them. But they would have to be nuanced a great deal before I would ever use them.

In fact – they have been so soiled by some Calvinists in the past that I would never use them to begin with.
You said,”God, filling Heaven and earth as He does, makes innumerable decision for every one decision of ours. Those decisions form paradigms in which we make our un coerced choices and God knew what those choices would be before He acted in those innumerable ways to form that particular paradigm resulting in those particular choices by us out of our free will.” Where does He say that his choices form paradigms in which we make choices? Where does he say his particular choices form that paradigm resulting is our particular choices?
I probably should not have returned your post with a “You’ve got to be kidding.” That was disingenuous of me. I know you weren’t kidding.

But your question did lead me to question either how new you are to the faith or how you could have missed all of the biblical concepts encompassed in my statement.

In fact my original post was simply stating what the scriptures clearly teach when considered in their totality.

I should have simply asked you how new you were to the faith. If I found that you were rather new – my question then would have been (if I even asked it at all) along the lines of why you are discussing rather advanced doctrines such as this without a base knowledge on which to draw.

Theology is built systematically a stone at a time. We start with such doctrines as omniscience (including the concept of counterfactuals which the Lord may or may not choose to involve Himself in), omnipresence (His(not only) transcendence but His immanence), the place the Word of God plays in both our existence and God’s providential involvement in the working of things.

Then we take those and other building blocks with us when we face other more thorny issues such as predestination and free will and how they relate.

I.e. – if you really need to ask where I got the concepts encompassed in my statement – you really need to go back to school on the basics.

To put it bluntly - sometimes when I talk to Christians about these matters it seems almost like they are reading about a different God than the omniscient, omnipresent, providentially involved sovereign creator/sustainer of the universe.

God is not, as some seem to think, a God Who simply wound things up and cast them loose Who is now living in a galaxy far far away called Heaven and Who simply visits here now and then and or reaches in and tweaks a few things occasionally.

His decrees hold us together and in them alone we have our being and make our decisions.

Please don't make assumptions about my theology beyond what I say about it myself - and remember that any systematic theology you subscribe to has to be build on the entire Word of God and not just feeling or by cherry picking what you want to believe.

P.S.

Your first post to me was number 47 wherein you took exception to what I said in my post number 24.

In rereading my post number 24 I see that everything I said there was really basic stuff which anyone without a bias would have received as simply biblical truth.

This confirms what I felt about your from fairly early on. You have an extreme anti-Calvinist bias and you are gut reacting to anything that even remotely supports what they believe.

As a result you wrongly pigeon holed me early on as a Calvinist.

Please reread my post number 24. If you still find fault in it you really need to get on back to Bible school IMO - because it's really, really, really basic stuff.
 
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Anguspure

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So your children never surprise you?? Even as teenagers you have an all knowing parent ability?Is this pleasant, no surprises living?
I am not omniscient. YHWH on the other hand...
The words of the Bible and God disagree. He talks to men as though they made a free will choice.
Jesus says God’s will is not done on the earth.....His will is not done on the earth.... This truth clears up a lot of fog.
My take is that their failure to Love is a free choice in so far as they had a choice to Love. But as if we have taken a hit of methamphetamine or cocaine, once we have made that choice we are slaves to sin and worthy of destruction. But in His mercy He has made a way so that we may once again take up our choice and learn to Love.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Just as the scriptures say. Where did you get the idea that I felt otherwise?
From your post.
Actually I differ considerably with Calvinists..

If any of my original post smacked of Calvinism in some ways it’s only because they (just like you) have some truth in their theology along with some error.
Huh? you don’t even know my theology,
Your obviously anti-Calvinist reactions to me and to others here leads me to think that you automatically get your hackles up over anything that even remotely endorses something believed by those dreaded Calvinists.
Nope. No emotion at all.
Of course that’s quite common here in this section of the forum.

I don’t believe in total depravity as usually taught by Calvinists.
good
I don’t believe in unconditional election as usually taught by Calvinists.
good
I don’t believe in limited atonement as usually taught by Calvinists.

I don’t believe in irresistible grace as usually taught by Calvinists.

I don’t believe in the perseverance of the saints as usually taught by Calvinists.
Good and I agree
All of the 5 points would make a nice acrostic for a general statement on soteriology if a person were to use them. But they would have to be nuanced a great deal before I would ever use them.

In fact – they have been so soiled by some Calvinists in the past that I would never use them to begin with.

I probably should not have returned your post with a “You’ve got to be kidding.” That was disingenuous of me. I know you weren’t kidding.
Ok
But your question did lead me to question either how new you are to the faith or how you could have missed all of the biblical concepts encompassed in my statement.
Its probable I know the Bible than you and see more man theology with nothing in the scripture to back the position up. This is very common here.
In fact my original post was simply stating what the scriptures clearly teach when considered in their totality.
You didn’t supply any scriptures let alone a totality.
I should have simply asked you how new you were to the faith. If I found that you were rather new – my question then would have been (if I even asked it at all) along the lines of why you are discussing rather advanced doctrines such as this without a base knowledge on which to draw.
Just supply scripture, not a teaching. I find many “advanced” doctrines rather elementary.
Theology is built systematically a stone at a time. We start with such doctrines as omniscience (including the concept of counterfactuals which the Lord may or may not choose to involve Himself in), omnipresence (His(not only) transcendence but His immanence), the place the Word of God plays in both our existence and God’s providential involvement in the working of things.
You a theologian?
Then we take those and other building blocks with us when we face other more thorny issues such as predestination and free will and how they relate.
One can do this but if God is not involved, the man theology has a lot of holes.
I.e. – if you really need to ask where I got the concepts encompassed in my statement – you really need to go back to school on the basics.
No scripture to back up your position?
To put it bluntly - sometimes when I talk to Christians about these matters it seems almost like they are reading about a different God than the omniscient, omnipresent, providentially involved sovereign creator/sustainer of the universe.
i can’t speak for others.
God is not, as some seem to think, a God Who simply wound things up and cast them loose Who is now living in a galaxy far far away called Heaven and Who simply visits here now and then and or reaches in and tweaks a few things occasionally.
That’s deism.
His decrees hold us together and in them alone we have our being and make our decisions.
How come we don’t make our decisions within his decrees then?
Please don't make assumptions about my theology beyond what I say about it myself - and remember that any systematic theology you subscribe to has to be build on the entire Word of God and not just feeling or by cherry picking what you want to believe.
I haven’t meet a theologian who didn’t cherry pick. That’s why I asked you for scripture. Didn’t get any.
 
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His student

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You need to clean up the format on that last post before I can respond to any of it.

Come to think of it - don't bother.

The bottom line is that my post number 24 was spot on and it said nothing that can be construed as Calvinist - just straight Biblical thought.

If you found it so - it must be because you had on anti-Calvinist glasses.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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You need to clean up the format on that last post before I can respond to any of it.
Agreed. Did so.
Come to think of it - don't bother.

The bottom line is that my post number 24 was spot on and it said nothing that can be construed as Calvinist - just straight Biblical thought.

If you found it so - it must be because you had on anti-Calvinist glasses.
I asked for scripture on your position and apparently you have none. That is very common.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I am not omniscient. YHWH on the other hand...
I’m not a Jew. So that has no meaning for me. But your example then fails utterly.
My take is that their failure to Love is a free choice in so far as they had a choice to Love. But as if we have taken a hit of methamphetamine or cocaine, once we have made that choice we are slaves to sin and worthy of destruction. But in His mercy He has made a way so that we may once again take up our choice and learn to Love.
But he’s not preventing us from harming ourselves as you claim you do as a parent. That was the point,
 
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His student

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Agreed. Did so.
Good. Where did you find it in error?

Going right down through the post in order ---

Was it that you don’t think the scriptures say that God spoke His words through a donkey?

Was it that I said that God spoke concurrently with Chiapas?

Is it that you disagree that the words chosen by those who wrote the Bible are God’s words as well?

Was it that I said that we had no authority to claim that God is always doing that when men speak words that they chose without being forced or coerced in any way?

Is it that I said that in all of the examples I gave where God spoke concurrently with men – they still had free will to say as they wanted to?

Is it that I said that God has always known what men would choose in any given circumstance?

Is it that I said that God works in innumerable ways in every historical paradigm?

Is it when I said that we live and move and have our being in God?

Was it when I said that everything was created by Him?

Was my error that I said that everything was created for Him?

Was my error that I said that everything is held together and functions in Him?

Was my error that I maintained that He fills the heavens and the earth?

Was my error that I said that God has the attribute of aseity and that He is not constrained by anything other than His own nature?

Was it that I said that God chooses what He will do out of His own will?

Was it that I maintain that God is the one who creates the paradigms in which men make choices by acting in the innumerable ways He acts every second of every day from within His creation?

Was it that I said that our choices were our own choices? Is it that I believe in free will that you take issue with?

Was it my contention that everything that happens in His creation was predestined to happen and that His omniscience demands believing that that is true? (Perhaps when God says that He has always known what will happen in the future you believe that there is some other driving force in existence that makes that force what predestines everything that He knows will happen rather than His own choices to act in the ways He acts.)

Was it that I said that His Word was the first Word and that it will be the Last Word?

Was it that I said that men are free to choose what they do and say?

Was it when I said that God doesn’t need to explain Himself where I was in error?

Was my error when I said that men will give an account for every word and deed done in the flesh?

Was my so called “Calvinist error” that I said that these completely Biblical concepts are just the way it is concerning God vis a vis His creation?

Actually my post was not in error.

Actually you read it through anti Calvinistic glasses because of your bias.
I asked for scripture on your position and apparently you have none. That is very common.
I have a score of scriptures I could look up for you.

But if you tell me that you don't know where I get my theology from - I'm not going to do it for you.

Reason being - that I simply don't believe you at this point.

It's “common” not to want to cut and paste all of the basic scriptures that would be used to support my post because no one wants to take several long posts just to school you on what you should already know if you are going to debate a subject like this.

At this stage I believe that you are simply another anti Calvinist who likes to argue the subject so much that they see Calvinists behind every tree even when a person is simply talking about the plain teaching of the scriptures.

Thanks for cleaning up that post by the way.

Unfortunately we have moved past most of it except the following.
You a theologian?
Yes.

And if you are going to discuss theology of this magnitude with theologians you need to study up on some basics first.

When we say that God knew everything that was going to happen in the future and that He knew it before there was even a creation where things could happen ---- we mean that God knew everything that was going to happen in the future if and when He Himself acted in certain ways.

Since those things were predestined to occur if God acted in certain ways and God was and is not constrained in any way to so act - God is the One Who brings them from mere possibilities (what we call counterfactuals) into actual events by so choosing to act. In doing so - He and He alone is the one Who makes those destined things come to pass by the actions He chooses to do. I.e. He is the One Who predestines things - just as He says in scripture.

These are basic concepts and if you haven't thought through them backward and forward several times you are not equipped to have an opinion on the subject of sovereign predestination as it relates to the free will choices that we both agree men make without coercion on the part of God.

Look - we both agree that men make choices of their own will. But you don't seem to have a grasp on the framework from which we exist and make those choices.

I can't or at least won't attempt to school you any more on these basics. It's taking too long.

Please think through these basic concepts first before reentering discussions on the sovereignty of God as it relates to the free will of men.

There are obviously many points you have not considered.:wave:
 
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renniks

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“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? Or thy work, He hath no hands?” Isaiah 45:9 (KJV 1900)
The fact that we can strive with God proves Free Will. In the chapter you quote, God is making promises about what he will do. And giving warnings to those who are opposing him. Warnings that would not be necessary if man did not make real choices.
 
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Hello guys,

For a long time I've been trying to reconcile these two truths in my mind: God is in control and man has free will. I've read articles stating that our finite minds cannot understand how this is possible, yet we must accept them as twin truths. This doesn't make any sense in my logical mind! If God is in control, or in charge of my life, then what exactly IS he in control of? A large part of our lives is our interactions with others... so does this mean, for example, if I finish a job interview, and pray to get the job, that God will influence the employer to give me the job? But then is He bypassing his free will? The only way I imagine God can influence our external lives is by "prompting" people's minds with different thoughts or ideas... but this seems irrational, because no human being just listens to random thoughts that pop up in their head, they have reasons for doing the stuff that they do.... So I'm still lost. If God is "in control", how far does this "control" go? If man has free will, then God cannot be in control! Yet a part of me wants to believe that God is in control, because it is comforting, and because the Bible seems to really emphasize this point. Honestly I get so much anxiety about this. I fear that God is somehow controlling everything, including me. I have had stuff happen to me or around me after prayer, e.g. I prayed for help and these Christians saw me and talked to me the same day. I prayed for help and I see a pamphlet for a conference called "Experiencing God". I ask for Jesus to reveal himself and soon after I find a pamphlet talking about Jesus' death. I've had so many experiences which point to God, as if God has placed these things in my life, but this brings the idea into my mind that God is controlling people.... I don't understand how some Christians say "God is in control" and don't seem to be afraid that it means He is literally controlling everything...

Please enlighten me :)


I heard a really good analogy while at church about freewill. It's simple but it works for me.

Imagine you are in a playground A. You have the freewill to choose to play in the slide or the see saw or interact with other kids in the playground. That's free will. However, God is still in control because he put you in Playground A (and not Playground B, C) and he owns all the playsgrounds in the world. Say if he said to you "don't play in the sea saw as it's broken and you will hurt yourself", but you did anyway (because of your free will), so you experience the consequences of not obeying God. However God is still in control as he knew that you can only hurt yourself, and it will not result in your death.... He is in control cause He has your life in His hands.

The awesome thing is God is a God who can change his mind and we have a relationship with him. In the Bible, there was a man who asked God to lengthen his life and God did.

Hope that helps.
 
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profoundgrace

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I don't understand, does obeying God mean obeying the instruction of the Bible, or am I supposed to hear from God and do what that voice tells me? The latter is kinda psychotic... I don't think anyone can really know how God speaks to them, unless they're a prophet perhaps, but I will assume you mean obeying the Word correct?

But this doesn't answer my question; if He "does what He pleases", where's the line between our free will and His sovereignty, you get that?

Why would it be psychotic to hear from the Lord? The Bible says the real children of God knows how to hear their Master's voice. God has spoken to people many times in the Bible, in the past. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He still speaks today, and yes even audibly.
 
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Anguspure

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I’m not a Jew. So that has no meaning for me. But your example then fails utterly.
YHWH is the name of the Father of Yehoshua, and for those of us in Him, our Father as well.

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3

You have searched me, Lord,and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
You hem me in behind and before, and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain. Psalms 139

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4

If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 1 John 3

But he’s not preventing us from harming ourselves as you claim you do as a parent. That was the point,
I disagree. Many times He has intervened in order to save my life, but not just my life, many other inconveniences as well.
But also like any good parent, He often leaves me to learn the way to live, and allows me to face the consequences of my own failures.
 
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