Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

LoveofTruth · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
That is not the foreknowledge of Romans 8.

But of course God sees all throughout His creation. That He does know does not mean our faith is the vehicle which He chooses.

Yes the verse you quote says Jesus knew. It did not indicate that’s how God chooses. In fact Jesus said those the Father gives Him He will not reject and they will never perish.

We have to come to the conclusion that God chooses according to His will and purpose. That is supported in the Bible.

Judas was one of those who belonged to the Father along with the other apostles even before they were given to Jesus. Read John 17 and Matthew 10 and then Judas fell by transgression and lost it.
Yes you can fall from grace of salvation through an evil heart of unbelief

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
There are several themes in Romans. The prominent is the fallen nature of mankind Gentiles addressed in chapter 1 and Jews in chapter. Then all have fallen and need redemption which chapter 3 covers. Then chapter 4 solidifies that we are all of the seed of Abraham by Faith in Jesus Christ. Then chapter 5 solidifies we are (all people) justified by Faith and then the comparison of the first Adam and the second Jesus Christ.

Chapters 6 & 7 speak of sanctification and chapter 8 ties it all together by emphasizing those who have the Spirit and live by the Spirit are co-heirs with Christ. Thus the called are justified, conformed to the image of Christ and eventually glorified.

Chapters 9-11 are certainly addressing how God in redemptive history has both chosen individuals and groups for His will and purpose.

I disagree with your summary of the letter to the Romans.

Romans 2:17
But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God...

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew?

Romans 4:1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?

Was Abraham your forefather?

Romans 5:20
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase...

Gentiles never had the law.

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brethren for I am speaking to those who know the law...

Who knew the law?

Romans 7
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another.

The Gentiles were not under the law and were unable to die to the law.

Romans 9:1-5
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

What more needs to be said. Paul is pouring out his heart over his forsaken brethren, the Jews.

This is the reason and the purpose of the letter to the Romans, a long winded explanation of the failure of the nation of Israel to attain righteousness.

Romans 9:30-33
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written.

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation...

Who is Paul talking about here?

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Romans 11:1
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Judas was one of those who belonged to the Father along with the other apostles even before they were given to Jesus. Read John 17 and Matthew 10 and then Judas fell by transgression and lost it.
Yes you can fall from grace of salvation through an evil heart of unbelief

Judas was chosen yes. To fulfill the Scriptures. He obviously was not chosen for eternal life and protection as were the other disciples.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Why? You have created a false premise. Paul is addressing both Jews and Gentiles in Romans. What I quoted proves this.

Once again, negative.

No premise is necessary.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed and Paul is addressing both Jew and Gentile. Paul directly addresses the Jews throughout the letter to the Romans and much more than most imagine.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Was Abraham your forefather?

Yes.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Once again, negative.

No premise is necessary.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed and Paul is addressing both Jew and Gentile. Paul directly addresses the Jews throughout the letter to the Romans and much more than most imagine.

You sure are focusing on the chosen nation. But seem to be asserting the Church is not the chosen people of God.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Yes.

So your are a direct descendant of Abraham.

Circumcised on the eight day.

Born under the law.

You have the same family tree with Jacob and Isaac being members.

Or are you adopted, uncultivated and grafted into the tree of life.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
You sure are focusing on the chosen nation. But seem to be asserting the Church is not the chosen people of God.

Paul is not talking about the church in Romans. Paul is explaining why Israel could not achieve righteousness through the law.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
You sure are focusing on the chosen nation. But seem to be asserting the Church is not the chosen people of God.

No i am not. Paul is presenting the subject of Israel and it's failure.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Paul is explaining why Israel failed and Paul is addressing both Jew and Gentile.

Ok you admit both Jews and Gentiles are addressed in Romans. Good start.

klutedavid said:
Paul directly addresses the Jews throughout the letter to the Romans and much more than most imagine.

Yes he does mention Israel because of the centrality of redemptive history through that nation.

That has nothing to do with restricting how God chooses according to His will and purpose. Ephesians 1 is quite clear to a Gentile audience that all who are in Christ are chosen from before the foundations of the Earth.

The Whole Purpose of the New Covenant.
The wall has been broken down and we are one people in Christ.
Ephesians 2: NASB

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which isthe Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thusestablishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Paul is not talking about the church in Romans. Paul is explaining why Israel could not achieve righteousness through the law.

But you realize Paul is speaking to the church at Rome. Jews and Gentiles one body in Christ, right?

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
No i am not. Paul is presenting the subject of Israel and it's failure.

It’s more than that. Paul is laying down some very foundational Christian doctrines. You know like Justification by Faith. Or is that only for the Jews?

This is starting to sound like a Michael Rood video.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Paul is explaining why Israel could not achieve righteousness through the law.

Not just Israel but everyone. Yes this is a major theme. And he tells us in Romans 4 we (all of us) are descendants of Abraham by faith and not the Law:

Romans 4: NASB
13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.”

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Ok you admit both Jews and Gentiles are addressed in Romans. Good start.

Thanks.

Yes he does mention Israel because of the centrality of redemptive history through that nation.

Yes, Paul was a Jew and Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was sent only to the Jews and I must remind you of this.

That has nothing to do with restricting how God chooses according to His will and purpose.

Or according to His love which seems to be more salient to the narrative.

Ephesians 1 is quite clear to a Gentile audience that all who are in Christ are chosen from before the foundations of the Earth.

Problem is the text from Ephesians 1 does not say that.

Ephesians 1:4-5
In love, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

In love we were predestined to adoption as sons.

The Whole Purpose of the New Covenant. The wall has been broken down and we are one people in Christ.

Let's have a closer look at the text you quoted.

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,”

The Gentiles in the flesh are uncultivated, not attached to the tree of life.
Uncircumcised dogs.

which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

What a slamming indictment against the Gentiles, without God, excluded from the commonwealth, strangers to the covenants, and separate from Christ.

13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

You who were far off?

You who did not know God or even were known by God.

Were brought near, near to what?

14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which isthe Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thusestablishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Strangers and aliens, yes.

Definitely, we have been adopted.

You still need to answer the question.

Romans 11
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Who are the people Paul is referring to above?

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Jesus was sent only to the Jews and I must remind you of this.

Yes before His death and Resurrection. Yet risen Christ said:

Luke 24: NASB

45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

klutedavid said:
What a slamming indictment against the Gentiles, without God, excluded from the commonwealth, strangers to the covenants, and separate from Christ.

Yes we know the Gentiles were not Israel. We are one people in Christ. Just as the text I quoted showed. That does not preclude individuals being chosen in Christ before the foundations of the earth. Before time, space and matter.

We are all of the seed of Abraham by faith.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Strangers and aliens, yes.

Definitely, we have been adopted.

Of course adopted. That has absolutely no bearing on how God chooses according to His will and purpose.

Notice below. It is chose and predestined.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.

BBAS 64 · Nov 18, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Those he knew beforehand he also predetermined the plan for them which is to be confirmed to the image of His Son. This is the predestination or end destination for believers. Those who are believers and overcome till the end will be part of this. But those whose hearts harden and have an evil heart of unbelief can fall away and depart from the living God and have their names blotted out.

Good Day, LoveofTruth

It is a simple grammatical question here it is again:

Those God foreknew, Those here is a plural pronoun to which noun/pronoun does it refer?

Is not "forknew" a verb that GOD does, and the pronoun "those" refer to the directy object of the noun?

Which noun?

We will look at the dependent Verb clauses if you would like./. but let us deal with the first verb / object identification.

In him,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Nov 18, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
God forknew, he didn’t force them to believe or reject him. Those He fore knew, who would repent and believe he made the plan to have their final destination to be confirmed to the image of His Son,

Jesus said to some “where is your faith”

Men must make choices and they have freewill as scripture shows. Yes, Jesus is the substance of our faith and our faith is in Him and without him we can do nothing but we must choose and revive him and believe.

Isaiah 66:3. ...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

Good Day, LoveofTruth

Yes you are right God foreknew whom he would gift Faith too.. and that Faith for filled the purpose for which it was given.

The question is valid... the answer is apparent they do not have Faith. We choose Jesus Freely indeed and the gift of faith is why and God is the primary cause of that choice we freely make... Yes.

With out Jesus we would choose the darkness we are and continue to hate the light... But because of God we love the light we once hated, and love the darkness we once loved... what a great and Mighty God.

I will contend thew Children of Jerusalem were gathered prime example would have been Paul. Not retained at all to the unwillingness of Jerusalem herself.... God for fills his own purposes in accordance to his good pleasure all the time and every time with out fail. No one can stay his hand.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Nov 18, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation.

that godly sorrow is brought about when a man has God’d Light shine upon him in reproof and exposing his sin. Then when he is broken or has a broken spirit and a humble and contrite heart God will receive him as scripture teaches.
And repentance comes before faith.

Psalm 51:17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

We must repent or change our mind about the way we are going. But the exposing of our sin is first initiated by God’s true Light. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light.
Some might ask, well why do some who have the light reprove then come to God in humility and faith and others do not? Jesus told us “they would not” and they hate the light because their deeds are evil. They would rather continue in sin than repent and be humbled before God seeking forgiveness. Pride, hatred of the light, the evil they do and because they would not show that they are responsible and not they did not have a choice, as scripture teaches.

just some verses to consider,

John 1:9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Ephesians 5:13. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.”

John 3:19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Isaiah 66:3. ...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

2 Corinthians 4:3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them....6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”

Good Day,

I disagree

God grants repentance for the express purpose of leading to Truth:

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

No granting no repentance and thus no knowledge of truth... God is the cause of our repentance, we live out the purposed direct effects.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Nov 18, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
John 6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”

Good Day, LoveOfTruth

Really need some context...

6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Not given not coming yes Jesus knew the given and the not given.

6:29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

He also knew who God had intended to work belief , and those whom the Father would not work.

In Him,

Bill

Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

Is predestination done through God's foreknowledge?

Yes

No

Other

Christ builds His church from within us

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Similar threads