Question for rapture people

Douggg

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But to say that Jesus Returns with humans, is a contradiction of Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14. Verses you conveniently ignore. So where the Bible is unclear, as in Zechariah and Jude, then we must apply the meaning that is plainly stated.

If you believe it is humans who Return with Jesus, then you must provide a Bible verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven before the Return.
Any assumptions, suppositions, conjecture or plain guesswork is rejected.
It does not have to say anywhere "His people". The text of the rapture/resurrection event refers to them who sleep in Christ, and them (in Christ inferred) alive at the time. The "His people" phrase is something you are coming up with. There is no requirement to prove your wording. The bible is sufficient and the proof has been presented to you over and over, but you don't want to face it.

Matthew 16:27 does not say with only his angels, and does not call them his armies. There will be an army of angels coming with Jesus. But in Revelation 19:14 it is armies - plural. Kings and priests.

Revelation 19:14 does not say angels, and refers back to Revelation 19:8, to prove it is not referring to angels, but the saints. They are coming from heaven, in Revelation 19:11.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The above is sufficient information to prove that the rapture/resurrected of the them asleep in Christ and the alive in Christ at the time will be taken to heaven, to return with Jesus from heaven in his armies - plural.
 
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keras

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Douggg, I repeat:
Assumptions, suppositions, conjectures and guesswork are rejected.

Nothing that you have presented proves that humans will go to heaven, let alone return with Jesus.
Why do you and every 'rapture to heaven' believer contradict Jesus Words? He prayed that we NOT be removed! John 17:15
 
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Douggg

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Douggg, I repeat:
Assumptions, suppositions, conjectures and guesswork are rejected.

Nothing that you have presented proves that humans will go to heaven, let alone return with Jesus.
Why do you and every 'rapture to heaven' believer contradict Jesus Words? He prayed that we NOT be removed! John 17:15
And I repeat: The bible is sufficient and the proof has been presented to you over and over, but you don't want to face it.

I gave you verses, but you haven't addressed any of what I posted. Revelation 19:8 saints, 19:11 from heaven, 19:14 saints in the armies.
 
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keras

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I gave you verses, but you haven't addressed any of what I posted. Revelation 19:8 saints, 19:11 from heaven, 19:14 saints in the armies.
In Revelation 19:11; it is Jesus who comes from heaven, then in verse 14 we are told He is accompanied by His angel army.
Simple facts that you deny, to your discredit.
But it is your denial of the 6 Words of Jesus, John 3:13, John 7:14, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25-26, that is an indictment against you and all 'rapture' believers.
 
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Douggg

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In Revelation 19:11; it is Jesus who comes from heaven, then in verse 14 we are told He is accompanied by His angel army.
Revelation19:14 does not say army singular. Revelation 19:14 does not say angels. Revelation 19:14, clothed in fine linen, white and clean ties back to Revelation 19:8 the righteouness of saints, not angels.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Simple facts that you deny, to your discredit.

It says saints, not angels, in Revelation 19:8. Them in the armies in Revelation 19:14 include the saints clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

But it is your denial of the 6 Words of Jesus, John 3:13, John 7:14, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25-26, that is an indictment against you and all 'rapture' believers.
Don't go off on some tangent, as a diversion. Read what it says in Revelation 19:8, saints, not angels.
 
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DavidPT

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Revelation19:14 does not say army singular. Revelation 19:14 does not say angels. Revelation 19:14, clothed in fine linen, white and cleat ties back to Revelation 19:8 the righteouness of saints, not angels.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



It says saints, not angels, in Revelation 19:8. Them in the armies in Revelation 19:14 include the saints clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Don't go off on some tangent, as a diversion. Read what it says in Revelation 19:8, saints, not angels.

Douggg, anyone actually paying attention to the text, such as you are doing in this post, should arrive at the same conclusions you arrive at.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Clearly his wife is not meaning angels, it is meaning saints. Therefore----his wife hath made herself ready---equals---to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

No one should even dispute any of this at this point. So why is anyone even disputing verse 14 then?

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


And the armies which were in heaven---clothed in fine linen, white and clean---clearly and undeniably refer to these previously mentioned in verse 7 and 8----his wife hath made herself ready-----to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


And the armies which were in heaven----clothed in fine linen, white and clean----And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

If clothed in fine linen, white and clean, does not mean, she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, then what else could it possibly mean?


It should not be possible to mistake who is being meant by His armies in verse 14. It is clear as day who it is meaning. It is meaning His wife that has made herself ready.
 
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DavidPT

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But to say that Jesus Returns with humans, is a contradiction of Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14. Verses you conveniently ignore. So where the Bible is unclear, as in Zechariah and Jude, then we must apply the meaning that is plainly stated.

If you believe it is humans who Return with Jesus, then you must provide a Bible verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven before the Return.
Any assumptions, suppositions, conjecture or plain guesswork is rejected.

Revelation 19 further proves my case, that humans are meant in Jude 1:14 and Zechariah 14:5. Douggg and I both showed that in post # 165 and # 166.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Revelation 19 further proves my case, that humans are meant in Jude 1:14 and Zechariah 14:5. Douggg and I both showed that in post # 165 and # 166.
Or not.
Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible

With ten thousand; innumerable multitudes; a definite for an indefinite.

Of his saints; holy angels, Matthew 16:27 Daniel 7:10 Zechariah 14:5 2 Thessalonians 1:7 Revelation 5:11. Believers likewise may be here included, as attendants upon Christ when he comes to judgment.
 
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keras

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Revelation 19 further proves my case, that humans are meant in Jude 1:14 and Zechariah 14:5. Douggg and I both showed that in post # 165 and # 166.
Apart from your manipulation of scripture and the wild assumptions that 'rapture' believers make, your worst mistake is to ignore and dismiss the 6 verses of Jesus Words; plainly saying that such a thing as people going to live in heaven is impossible. As listed in #164.
Remember that one day you will stand before the Lord in Judgment. He may ask you why you did that.

Many times in this forum, I have presented the Biblical truths of God's Plans for His people in the end times. When read and understood, it will be seen that we Christians have an amazing future, blessed and protected by the Lord.
Give up the flimsy lie that is the 'rapture to heaven' belief and be ready to call upon His Name, when the fiery disaster strikes.
 
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DavidPT

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Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible

With ten thousand; innumerable multitudes; a definite for an indefinite.

Of his saints; holy angels, Matthew 16:27 Daniel 7:10 Zechariah 14:5 2 Thessalonians 1:7 Revelation 5:11. Believers likewise may be here included, as attendants upon Christ when he comes to judgment.


Obviously angels will be accompanying when He comes in judgment, so I'm not even disputing that. What is being disputed though, is being disputed by Keras, where he does not agree any humans accompany Jesus when He comes in judgment. Jude 1 proves otherwise, as does some of those other passages I brought up.



Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(hagios not aggelos),
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
 
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DavidPT

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Apart from your manipulation of scripture and the wild assumptions that 'rapture' believers make, your worst mistake is to ignore and dismiss the 6 verses of Jesus Words; plainly saying that such a thing as people going to live in heaven is impossible. As listed in #164.
Remember that one day you will stand before the Lord in Judgment. He may ask you why you did that.

Many times in this forum, I have presented the Biblical truths of God's Plans for His people in the end times. When read and understood, it will be seen that we Christians have an amazing future, blessed and protected by the Lord.
Give up the flimsy lie that is the 'rapture to heaven' belief and be ready to call upon His Name, when the fiery disaster strikes.


You are assuming things about my position that are not even true. I never one time indicated anyone is raptured to heaven, as I do not believe in that to begin with. What I do think could be the case, the dead in Christ who rise first, and that if anyone is in heaven before Jesus returns, it would be meaning them and not a raptured church instead. Then as they are descending towards the earth, the church gathers together with them in the air, thus then explains the saints coming with Him per Jude 1:14 and Zechariah 14:5.

As to the dead in Christ who rise first, where do you think they are currently located? Are they soul sleeping or are they existing somewhere fully aware of their surroundings?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Are they soul sleeping or are they existing somewhere fully aware of their surroundings?
No.
See E.W.Bullinger's Lazarus and the Rich Man free online study - long and difficult, for necessary reasons stated right at the beginning - "tradition" is very, very, very difficult to overcome, especially is someone is bound by it for decades and unwilling to seek the truth no matter what the cost.
 
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DavidPT

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No.
See E.W.Bullinger's Lazarus and the Rich Man free online study - long and difficult, for necessary reasons stated right at the beginning - "tradition" is very, very, very difficult to overcome, especially is someone is bound by it for decades and unwilling to seek the truth no matter what the cost.



So which of those two questions I asked does 'No' answer?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The answer is not easy, for reasons plainly stated in the following:

See E.W.Bullinger's Lazarus and the Rich Man free online study - long and difficult, for necessary reasons stated right at the beginning - "tradition" is very, very, very difficult to overcome, especially is someone is bound by it for decades and unwilling to seek the truth no matter what the cost.
 
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keras

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What I do think could be the case, the dead in Christ who rise first, and that if anyone is in heaven before Jesus returns, it would be meaning them and not a raptured church instead. Then as they are descending towards the earth, the church gathers together with them in the air, thus then explains the saints coming with Him per Jude 1:14 and Zechariah 14:5.
The only dead in Christ who will be resurrected will be the Trib martyrs. Revelation 20:4 Their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 They are allowed to cry out at times.

Your theory of 'coming' with Jesus, presumably riding on white horses, clothed in white linen, is rather fanciful and not Biblical.
Sure; those who remain alive will be gathered by the angels; Matthew 24:31, and will meet Jesus in the clouds. Then they will be taken to Jerusalem, where they will be His priests and co-rulers.

My answer in #169 is aimed at Douggg and every other 'rapture to heaven' believer.
 
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Obviously angels will be accompanying when He comes in judgment, so I'm not even disputing that. What is being disputed though, is being disputed by Keras, where he does not agree any humans accompany Jesus when He comes in judgment. Jude 1 proves otherwise, as does some of those other passages I brought up.


1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
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DavidPT

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1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints(hagios).


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels(aggelos),

These 2 passages alone prove 100%, Jesus comes not only with His angels but also with His saints. How could anybody deny it? Why would anybody deny it? It's right there in black and white, and is clear as clear be.
 
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keras

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These 2 passages alone prove 100%, Jesus comes not only with His angels but also with His saints. How could anybody deny it? Why would anybody deny it? It's right there in black and white, and is clear as clear be.
We deny your premise because it conflicts with the Words of Jesus and the 'holy ones' who accompany Jesus at His Return are only the angel army of heaven, as Revelation 19:14 says.
 
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