The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not because they believe you are but because they feel that you must think you are.

Kind of a take off on "Spureon's Arminian Prayer" which he coined in order to illustrate the human pride underlying the idea of an unsaved, ungodly, rebellious – and spiritually dead – sinner exercising his “free-will” to choose the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior, i.e. to come to Christ of his own free-will. It was a takeoff on the prayer of the Pharisee that Jesus used as an illustration.

In his sermon Spurgeon says, among other things:
"...Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the.............But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

'Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

I believe their point was to use it as a argument against me. In other words, what make you so good that you can choose Christ but others did. It was just a way to charge me with self righteousness.

Spurgeon's using the same argument I addressed in my post. There is no one who doesn't have some understanding given by Christ. So, his argument, "I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself;" starts with a false premise. Can a person choose Christ, yes because Christ has already given them some level of understanding. This is where I believe the Calvinist argument against free will falls apart. They try to make it all about the person. As if they had absolutely nothing to go on. They use the made of argument that people are spiritually dead. Then say what can a dead man do. How can a dead man choose Christ, if he's dead. That's a bogus argument. Firstly, there is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that says a man is spiritually dead. The whole concept isn't found in Scripture. Paul uses death as a metaphor. In Eph. 2, the passage usually quoted, Paul uses dead in sins as a metaphor for their inability to change their situation. That doesn't mean they can't ask for help.

He also creates room for equivocation and a red herring. He uses the term, "entirely free" without defining what that means, thus setting up room for equivocation. He also uses a red herring fallacy, that being that free will is saving one self. No free will believers I've ever seen claim they save themselves.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The New Birth causes us to naturally love God and seek holiness.
We cannot obtain the this love/holiness/righteousness on our own; it's a work of God's. IOW, righteousness, "the righteousness of God", is not only imputed; it's given, as part and parcel of being justified, i.e. made just. We're new creations, forgiven, swept clean, and filled with the virtues of faith, hope, and love. From there, with that gift, we work out our salvation; we can remain in that state of justice, or not. We can refrain from sin or return to it after "having tasted of the heavenly gift". We can invest our talents and increase them, or bury them.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We cannot obtain the this love/holiness/righteousness on our own; it's a work of God's. IOW, righteousness, "the righteousness of God", is not only imputed; it's given, as part and parcel of being justified, i.e. made just. We're new creations, forgiven, swept clean, and filled with the virtues of faith, hope, and love. From there, with that gift, we work out our salvation; we can remain in that state of justice, or not. We can refrain from sin or return to it after "having tasted of the heavenly gift". We can invest our talents and increase them, or bury them.
The New Birth causes us to love God. And it shows up in a hunger and thirst for righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...we can resist grace...
I believe that.

And yet apparently only for a time - as all those the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will eventually come to the Son - according to what the Son told us.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The New Birth causes us to love God. And it shows up in a hunger and thirst for righteousness.
We can actually begin to develop that hunger and thirst before the new birth; it's hunger and thirst for something better than this godless world has to offer, a hunger and thirst for God at the end of the day-and a contributing reason why we may turn to Him. A matter of personal experience-while always still a matter grace. Either way, the righteousness given is not our own, and not from us, and not merely imputed.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I believe that.

And yet apparently only for a time - as all those the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will eventually come to the Son - according to what the Son told us.
True enough-and yet we don't know what He alone knows with absolute certainty: just who those people are, whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not IOW.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We can actually begin to develop that hunger and thirst before the new birth; it's hunger and thirst for something better than this godless world has to offer, a hunger and thirst for God at the end of the day-and a contributing reason why we may turn to Him. A matter of personal experience-while always still a matter grace. Either way, the righteousness given is not our own, and not from us, and not merely imputed.
We hate God and love idols we call Jesus before the New Birth.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We hate God and love idols we call Jesus before the New Birth.
He calls us to conversion, and enables it. He just won't make us wear it, or keep wearing it.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe their point was to use it as a argument against me. In other words, what make you so good that you can choose Christ but others did. It was just a way to charge me with self righteousness.
Of course - just as I told you it was. It was not to inform you that they really thought that you or anyone else is better than anyone else.

I merely informed you of what they likely meant and used Spurgeon's prayer as an illustration of what they were trying to say.

Mine is not to agree or disagree with every straw man that Charles Spurgeon used or those used by Arminians.

My intent was not to argue for total depravity, unconditional election or any of the other points of so called Calvinism.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe that.

And yet apparently only for a time - as all those the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son will eventually come to the Son - according to what the Son told us.

That passage was reffing to when Jesus was on earth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He calls us to conversion, and enables it. He just won't make us wear it, or keep wearing it.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4 (KJV 1900)
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course - just as I told you it was. It was not to inform you that they really thought that you or anyone else is better than anyone else.

I merely informed you of what they likely meant and used Spurgeon's prayer as an illustration of what they were trying to say.

Mine is not to agree or disagree with every straw man that Charles Spurgeon used or those used by Arminians.

My intent was not to argue for total depravity, unconditional election or any of the other points of so called Calvinism.
Yeah, I never took it as they thought I was more righteous. It was a dig. I was just pointing out that back in that other post where I agreed with the definition of free will that it included that idea that everyone has some level of understanding given by Christ.
 
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
True enough-and yet we don't know what He alone knows with absolute certainty: just who those people are, whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not IOW.
Just as it must be and as the Word of God informs us.

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever,...." Deuteronomy 29:29

We have no idea just who the elect are until they openly receive Christ as Savior. After that we can celebrate what we know along with the angels in Heaven.

That's why we preach the gospel to the whole world - bar none. That includes the savage, the businessman, our own family and the axe murderer on death row.

No assumptions required or allowed. Freely we have been given freely we give.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4 (KJV 1900)
Faith is the beggining of human salvation. And it can achieve this for one reason, because it places us in right stead and union with the only One who can finally make us just, who we were created to be, to triumph and overcome. "Apart from Me you can do nothing ." Adam had de-parted from Him. Again, He won't force the matter. We're exhorted to persevere only due to the very real possibility of not persevering. And we can't predict our own perseverance.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
........I agreed with the definition of free will that it included that idea that everyone has some level of understanding given by Christ.
Some level of understanding for sure. After all "Christian" activity has spread throughout the earth over time.

But deep personal understanding, not necessarily so much.

The Kingdom of God is like a little tiny seed that is intended to grow into a small bush but grows (with God's permission) into a monstrosity of a tree, so big that the birds of the air (a type of evil) preach in it's branches.

The true sheep of God also find shelter in it.

But God will have to separate the elect from the wanna be's when the time is right.

True understanding and acceptance of the gospel requires an inward call by the Holy Spirit as opposed to the general call which all men who here the gospel receive.

All those who receive that inward call are justified according to Romans 8.

Those who receive the general call or light - not so.

Many are called but few are chosen.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Faith is the beggining of human salvation. And it can achieve this for one reason, because it places us in right stead and union with the only One who can finally make us just, who we were created to be, to triumph and overcome. "Apart from Me you can do nothing ." Adam had departed from Him. Again, He won't force the matter. We're exhorted to persevere only due to the very real possibility of not persevering. And we can't predict our own perseverance.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith [faithfulness]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8–10 (KJV 1900)
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
767
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,497.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some level of understanding for sure. After all "Christian" activity has spread throughout the earth over time.

But deep personal understanding, not necessarily so much.

The Kingdom of God is like a little tiny seed that is intended to grow into a small bush but grows (with God's permission) into a monstrosity of a tree, so big that the birds of the air (a type of evil) preach in it's branches.

The true sheep of God also find shelter in it.

But God will have to separate the elect from the wanna be's when the time is right.

True understanding and acceptance of the gospel requires an inward call by the Holy Spirit as opposed to the general call which all men who here the gospel receive.

All those who receive that inward call are justified according to Romans 8.

Those who receive the general call or light - not so.

Many are called but few are chosen.

Well, the understanding that is given by Christ is so that all can believe. That's the context of John's statement.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jn. 1:7-9 KJV)

He uses the singular every man to indicate individuals. That light or understanding is so that that every man might believe.

I don't think you can back this up with Scripture. There's nothing referring to two calls.

Romans 8 is referring to the Jews, and the justifying that took place in verse 29 was past tense when Paul wrote it. It refers to what God had done in the past.

If we look at the Scriptures we find that the majority of passages that refer to the elect, refer to Israel. Of the the ones that don't, none say that Gentiles are the elect of God.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
“For by grace are ye saved through faith [faithfulness]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8–10 (KJV 1900)
Yes, and we better keep walking in them. No works of the law will save us, and yet we'll be judged by the law-because it's holy, spiritual, and good as Paul tells us. And it's fulfilled by love, by which we'll be judged.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, and immortality, he will give eternal life."

But now we can live in the Spirit ourselves, with this New Covenant that achieves reconciliation and unity between man and God. The New Testament is nothing if not a back and forth play between God's grace-and our continuous need to respond to it, and remain under it.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, and we better keep walking in them. No works of the law will save us, and yet we'll be judged by the law-because it's holy, spiritual, and good as Paul tells us. And it's fulfilled by love, by which we'll be judged.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, and immortality, he will give eternal life."

But now we can live in the Spirit ourselves, with this New Covenant that achieves reconciliation and unity between man and God. The New Testament is nothing if not a back and forth play between God's grace-and our continuous need to respond to it, and remain under it.
God creates a new heart that loves him and wants to repent. It's not performing a bunch of works for the wrong reason as it appears most try doing.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
God creates a new heart that loves him and wants to repent. It's not performing a bunch of works for the wrong reason as it appears most try doing.
I agree, but Scripture is still quite explicit that we must do works for the right reason- that what we do counts and that he Spirit gives us the means to do it.
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6
And that kind of love comes only by grace.
 
Upvote 0