God is in Control and Man has free will?

timewerx · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
But God is not the one who made those paths. You have no evidence that He is doing so. You are assuming facts not in the evidence.

It could also be man who made (manufactured) those "paths" to try our limit our choices.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 17, 2019

timewerx said:
It could also be man who made (manufactured) those "paths" to try our limit our choices.

Lots could be but I am only interested in truth, not what man can imagine could be. God did not make those paths and He said he does not tempt anyone. Hence he did not.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 17, 2019

Dave L said:
If God does what you call sin, it is still him doing it and it is not sin.

Cause he is the biggest man in the vilage? Might makes right.

I know from past experience this discussion will not go anywhere productive. IF a man does not want to know and understand the ways of GOd and how and why what He does is right and does not need one, then no one can get that man to know and understand God. The mind has already decided and needs not more information.

Aussie Pete · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
I understand this as I understand God’s ways. I asked decades ago to be able to know God and He has granted this pursuit more than I thought possible. I didn’t give up but assumed his ways can be understood. He is that great.

God doesn’t step in and rescue us from our wrong choices and those consequences. We are responsible for our under aged children. He is not responsible for us at all.

Really? I'd be dead and buried if God had not helped me on many occasions. I've always had to choose to accept His help or not. I was about to do something catastrophic that would have been terribly hurtful to my children. I was not thinking about them at all at the time. God broke through my crazy thoughts and said, "How can you do this to your children?" I immediately stopped my intended action.

My comment about children was an example, not to be taken literally.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 17, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
Really? I'd be dead and buried if God had not helped me on many occasions. I've always had to choose to accept His help or not. I was about to do something catastrophic that would have been terribly hurtful to my children. I was not thinking about them at all at the time. God broke through my crazy thoughts and said, "How can you do this to your children?" I immediately stopped my intended action.

Thanks for the testimony. That is really wonderful.

My comment about children was an example, not to be taken literally.

Are their other parts to your story that are only an example, not speaking of anything or anyone real? YOu kind of destroyed your whole testimony by admitting that it really would not have been terribly hurtful to your children.

But you should know that this does not mean God is doing this all the time for everyone everywhere, which is the discussion.

Dave L · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Cause he is the biggest man in the vilage? Might makes right.

I know from past experience this discussion will not go anywhere productive. IF a man does not want to know and understand the ways of GOd and how and why what He does is right and does not need one, then no one can get that man to know and understand God. The mind has already decided and needs not more information.

“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? Or thy work, He hath no hands?” Isaiah 45:9 (KJV 1900)

section9+1 · Nov 17, 2019

solid_core said:
I do not think so. If He is God in whom all reality has its existence, then it has much more relevance to a discussion about His control than when we talk about some local planetary god.

He has a total control over everything, because everything exists in Him.

Whatever

Dorothy Mae · Nov 17, 2019

Dave L said:
“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? Or thy work, He hath no hands?” Isaiah 45:9 (KJV 1900)

Let him who boasts boast in this, that she understands and knows me.

eleos1954 · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
I don’t read that in any bible writer’s description of Him.
His will is not always done on the earth.

Didn't say it was ... His will is for us to turn away from sin.

eleos1954 · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
If we choose a path of behavior He hates, He withdraws some of his presence because our sin is separating us from Him again. We are then quenching the Holy Spirit. Those who walk pleasing Him experience a more profound awareness of His presence and hear his voice more clearly.

What I experience is conviction of the Holy Spirit ... and is a heavy burden until I confess and turn from the sin .. then peace comes.

fhansen · Nov 17, 2019

KingGeorge said:
Hello guys,

For a long time I've been trying to reconcile these two truths in my mind: God is in control and man has free will. I've read articles stating that our finite minds cannot understand how this is possible, yet we must accept them as twin truths. This doesn't make any sense in my logical mind! If God is in control, or in charge of my life, then what exactly IS he in control of? A large part of our lives is our interactions with others... so does this mean, for example, if I finish a job interview, and pray to get the job, that God will influence the employer to give me the job? But then is He bypassing his free will? The only way I imagine God can influence our external lives is by "prompting" people's minds with different thoughts or ideas... but this seems irrational, because no human being just listens to random thoughts that pop up in their head, they have reasons for doing the stuff that they do.... So I'm still lost. If God is "in control", how far does this "control" go? If man has free will, then God cannot be in control! Yet a part of me wants to believe that God is in control, because it is comforting, and because the Bible seems to really emphasize this point. Honestly I get so much anxiety about this. I fear that God is somehow controlling everything, including me. I have had stuff happen to me or around me after prayer, e.g. I prayed for help and these Christians saw me and talked to me the same day. I prayed for help and I see a pamphlet for a conference called "Experiencing God". I ask for Jesus to reveal himself and soon after I find a pamphlet talking about Jesus' death. I've had so many experiences which point to God, as if God has placed these things in my life, but this brings the idea into my mind that God is controlling people.... I don't understand how some Christians say "God is in control" and don't seem to be afraid that it means He is literally controlling everything...

Please enlighten me

God can sovereignly determine that man have free will. If He allows evil to happen for His purposes, for a time, He's still in control even as He doesn't directly will or cause that evil. He did not want Adam to eat of the fruit when He commanded Adam not to eat of it. This is why we pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", because of the very real possibility-and reality-of it not being done.

His student · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
This view has obvious mutually exclusive statements but it’s very common. if one is content with illogical assumptions about these matters, no man can offer understanding as there is none to be had within this framework.

It is a common view simply because so many people have and believe the Word of God.

My post was not one of illogical assumptions - but of the clear teaching of the Word of God.

The only understanding of these things is found within the framework of considering the entire council of God rather than picking and choosing.

Dorothy Mae said:
However if one really desires to see these things as God does, that is have real and coherent understanding, that is possible. God can explain Himself to anyone. One has to be willing to pay his price though.

God has explained Himself adequately to all who will but believe all of the Word of God and incorporate it all into their systematic theology.

One of the prices one pays for doing that - apparently - is to be called illogical for teaching exactly what God says without picking and choosing.

The issue, as I see it, is whether or not a person like you will accept that our existence and choices only come from within the paradigm set by God.

I.e. - God is God and we are not. God, filling Heaven and earth as He does, makes innumerable decision for every one decision of ours. Those decisions form paradigms in which we make our un coerced choices and God knew what those choices would be before He acted in those innumerable ways to form that particular paradigm resulting in those particular choices by us out of our free will.

Understanding predestination isn't rocket surgery. Understanding it adequately only requires that we accept the fact that God is God, alone possessing the attribute of being non contingent and we are not and never will be.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 17, 2019

danielmears said:
Nothing is a surprise to God if He already knows the future.

Nothing is a surprise to Yahuweh because He already KNOWS (Perfectly) everything including the future.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 17, 2019

danielmears said:
We do not have to know how it all works, we must, only believe, as Christ said, do what he says! Glory to God, His righteous system is really so marvelous!

HALLELUYAH!

Dorothy Mae · Nov 17, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Didn't say it was ... His will is for us to turn away from sin.

It’s not always done.

Kaon · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
What prophesy says this? So prayer doesn’t move the hand of God!???

Prophecy itself is proof that we do not control our own will, and that we are predestined. Prayer is supposed to be conversation and alignment to the will of the Most High God; the point of prayer is not to change His mind, because you cannot change His mind.

Everything that will happen has already happened; humans just think linearly when it comes to time, so it is hard to understand predestination while at the same time defending it in terms of spirituality.

We certainly do on both accounts.

It is a post-Enlightenment romanticism to believe you control your own destiny; most of the East (where "Christianity" came from) understands there is an order that we follow that has already been established: the physical laws and motion of the creation has been set, and we are part of creation, and under the order (especially as fallen creatures).

If you think you have control over the cross you bear, then you may not understand the role the Most High God has in our trajectory - which is TOTAL. We don't choose anything in this life except how to respond to life circumstances. That is our "freedom": to show how we would react to a fallen world as a spirit inhabiting a physical vessel.

Ah, a Calvinist...that explains all. The rest I deleted it without reading as much as I could. The theology is too cruel for the eyes.

I am not a Calvanist, and you are free to ignore anything I have said. I understand everyone has personal spiritual and physical limits, and I respect yours.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 17, 2019

His student said:
It is a common view simply because so many people have and believe the Word of God.

No, many people don’t read the Bible, just the teaching of men.

My post was not one of illogical assumptions - but of the clear teaching of the Word of God.

No, the bible teaches no such thing.

The only understanding of these things is found within the framework of considering the entire council of God rather than picking and choosing.

No, you have to
ignore a great deal including He wants all to be saved.

God has explained Himself adequately to all who will but believe all of the Word of God and incorporate it all into their systematic theology.

Calvinists ignore a great deal of the Bible and cherrie pick.

One of the prices one pays for doing that - apparently - is to be called illogical for teaching exactly what God says without picking and choosing.

No the price is not knowing God.

The issue, as I see it, is whether or not a person like you will accept that our existence and choices only come from within the paradigm set by God.

Since God claims no such thing, I don’t believe it.

I.e. - God is God and we are not.

Not worth saying.

God, filling Heaven and earth as He does, makes innumerable decision for every one decision of ours. Those decisions form paradigms in which we make our un coerced choices and God knew what those choices would be before He acted in those innumerable ways to form that particular paradigm resulting in those particular choices by us out of our free will.

Where does God say this of himself?

Understanding predestination isn't rocket surgery. Understanding it adequately only requires that we accept the fact that God is God, alone possessing the attribute of being non contingent and we are not and never will be.

I understand it perfectly and reject it completely.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
It’s not always done.

I think from Scripture that "not always" is a great understatement !

His student · Nov 17, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Calvinists ignore a great deal of the Bible and cherrie pick.

And what Calvinists do has to do with me how? :scratch:

His student · Nov 17, 2019

His student said:
God is God and we are not. God, filling Heaven and earth as He does, makes innumerable decision for every one decision of ours. Those decisions form paradigms in which we make our un coerced choices and God knew what those choices would be before He acted in those innumerable ways to form that particular paradigm resulting in those particular choices by us out of our free will.

Dorothy Mae said:
Where does God say this of himself?

You really must be kidding.

God is in Control and Man has free will?

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