What makes Justinian a "saint?"

TheLostCoin

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Also I keep asking if being a Politician means you will never become a saint because that's what I get to the conclusion with these posts?

Also how are canonizations non-dogma?

1. I don't believe so. I think there's hesitation with some leaders because they've done very questionable things; Saint Justinian ordered soldiers to grab and beat up the Pope while he was saying Mass / Liturgy and dragged him to Constantinople, locking him up and torturing him until he signed a condemnation of three heretical documents.

It's not being a politician per se; it's just that politicians have access to power. And power corrupts very easily. Politics has always been and still is a field prone to dirtiness.

If you do some political campaign internships, you'll see how dirty politics can be. During my political campaign internship when I was a Sophomore, we infiltrated a public dinner, hosted by the other party's candidate, and asked him questions during a Q and A session, just so our candidate could make him contradict himself during the local debate.

Saint Stephen of Hungary seemed like a pretty wonderful figure. I also think King Alfred, while he isn't a Saint, was still a great King whom many privately venerate as a Saint.



2. I don't see how they possibly can be dogma. Dogma by its very nature is unchanging; for a canonization to be dogma, it would necessarily be the case that dogma constantly changes. Nor can dogma contradict itself, yet each individual Saint's life would necessarily be contradictory on places where they disagreed with each other or acted in different ways.

Saint Mark of Ephesus spent his whole career deriding Purgatory. Saint Gregory the Dialogist wrote an entire chapter explaining it in a strictly Roman Catholic way.

Saint Gennady burned heretics. Yet Saint Nicholas II allowed greater tolerance of religious liberty; due to him, the Russian Greek Catholic Church was able to come into existence and be an entity in Russia.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Stepinac didn't "head" the Ustache.

And when it comes to Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian relations, there aren't much clear black and white answers of who was good and who was evil; because when mass killings happened at various points in recent history, it seems that while there were clear, individual actors, it's not like the higher Church authorities in either communion gave a speech of public denunciation - they just kind of tacitly and silently approved it or looked the other way, pretending it wasn't happening.


I mean, if you want, we can get into a discussion of the Serbian Orthodox Church's role in promoting the Bosnian genocide.

okay, not the head, but I am pretty sure he was involved in it.

be that as it may, my point was that Rome's system of saints has allowed some violent folks to slip through, precisely because saints are saints because of their repentance. so asking why is St Justinian a saint when he did all this violent stuff is asking the wrong question.
 
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TheLostCoin

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I am also curious (in all honesty) of where St Gregory and St Mark actually contradict concerning purgatory?


Saint Gregory the Dialogist, Book IV of the Dialogues:

"Our Lord saith in the Gospel: Walk whiles you have the light:61 and by his Prophet he saith: In time accepted have I heard thee, and in the day of salvation have I holpen thee:62 which the Apostle St. Paul expounding, saith: Behold, 63 Solomon, likewise, saith: Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, work it instantly: for neither work, nor reason, nor knowledge, nor wisdom shall be in hell, whither thou dost hasten.64 David also saith: Because his mercy is for ever.65 By which sayings it is plain, that in such state as a man departeth out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.66 Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offences scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul saith, that Christ is the foundation: and by and by addeth: And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any mans work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.67 For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which |234 shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place.
For when I was yet in my younger years, and lived.a secular life, I heard from the mouth of mine elders, who knew it to be true: how that Paschasius, a Deacon of this Roman church (whose sound and eloquent books of the Holy Ghost be extant amongst us), was a man of a wonderful holy life, a marvelous giver of alms, a lover of the poor, and one that contemned himself. This man, in that contention which, through the exceeding hot emulation of the clergy, fell out betwixt Symmachus and Lawrence, made choice of Lawrence to be Bishop of Rome: and though he was afterward by common consent overcome, yet did he continue in his former opinion till his dying day: loving and preferring him, whom the Church, by the judgment of Bishops, refused for her governor. This Deacon ending his life in the time of Symmachus, Bishop of the Apostolic see: a man possessed with a devil came and touched his dalmatic, as it lay upon the bier, and was forthwith delivered from that vexation. Long time after, Germanus, Bishop of Capua (before mentioned), by the counsel of physicians, for the recovery of his health went to the baths: into which after he was entered, he found there standing in those hot waters the foresaid Paschasius, ready to do him service. At which |235 sight being much afraid, he demanded what so worthy a man as he was did in that place: to whom Paschasius returned this answer: "For no other cause," quoth he, "am I appointed to this place of punishment, but for that I took part with Lawrence against Symmachus: and therefore I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me, and by this token shall you know that your prayers be heard, if, at your coming again, you find me not here." Upon this, the holy man Germanus betook himself to his devotions, and after a few days he went again to the same baths, but found not Paschasius there: for seeing his fault proceeded not of malice, but of ignorance, he might after death be purged from that sin. And yet we must withal think that the plentiful alms which he bestowed in this life, obtained favour at God's hands, that he might then deserve pardon, when he could work nothing at all for himself."



Saint Mark of Ephesus, Homily on Purgatory:

"And so, at the beginning of your report you speak thus: “If those who truly repent have departed this life in love (towards God) before they were able to give satisfaction by means of worthy fruits for their transgressions or offenses, their souls are cleansed after death by means of purgatorial sufferings; but for the easing (or ‘deliverance’) of them from these sufferings, they are aided by the help which is shown them on the part of the faithful who are alive, as for example: prayers, Liturgies, almsgiving, and other works of piety.”

To this we answer the following: Of the fact that those reposed in faith are without doubt helped by the Liturgies and prayers and almsgiving performed for them, and that this custom has been in force from antiquity, there is the testimony of many and various utterances of the Teachers, both Latin and Greek, spoken and written at various times and in various places. But that souls are delivered thanks to a certain purgatorial suffering and temporal fire which possess such (a purgatorial) power and has the character of an help–this we do not find either in the Scriptures or in the prayers and hymns for the dead, or in the words of the Teachers. But we have received that even the souls which are held in hell are already given over to eternal torments, whether in actual fact and experience or in hopeless expectation of such, as can be aided and given a certain small help, although in the sense of completely loosing them from torment or giving hope for a final deliverance. And this is shown from the words of the great Macarius the Egyptian ascetic who, finding a skull in the desert, was instructed by it concerning this by the action of Diving Power. And Basil the Great, in the prayers read at Pentecost, writes literally the following: “Who also, on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hell [ literally in Greek”Hade”], granting us a great hope of improvement for those who are imprisoned from the defilements which have imprisoned them, and that Thou wilt send down Thy consolation” (Third Kneeling Prayer at Vespers).

But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though they have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have aid, has not at all been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or — if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration — they are kept in hell, but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine Goodness and Love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in the “Reflections of the Mystery of those Reposed in Faith” (in The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, VII, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives — and that completely — or lightens the responsibility for them until that final Judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by the gnawing of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be. And that this is much more tormenting and punishing than anything else, experience itself shows, and St. John Chrysostom testifies to us in almost all or at least most of his moral homilies, which affirm this, as likewise does the divine ascetic Dorotheus in hsi homily “On the Conscience…”"

. . .

"After this, a little further on, you desired to prove the above-mentioned dogma of purgatorial fire, at first quoting what is said in the book of Maccabees: It is holy and pious….to pray for the dead…that they might be delivered from their sin (2 Maccabees 12:44-45). Then, taking from the Gospel according to Matthew the place in which the Saviour declares that “whosoever shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world, nor in that which is to come” (Matt. 12:32), you say that form this one may see that there is remission of sins in the future life.

But that from this there in no way follows the idea of purgatorial fire is clearer than the son; for what is there in common between remission on one hand, and cleansing by fire and punishment on the other? For if the remission of sins is accomplished for the sake of prayers, or merely by the Divine love of mankind itself, there is no need for punishment and cleansing (by fire). But if punishment, and also cleansing, are established (by God)…then, it would seem, prayers (for the reposed) are performed in vain, and vainly do we hymn the Divine love of mankind. And so, these citation are less a proof of the existence of purgatorial fire than a refutation of it: for the remission of sins of those who have transgressed is presented in them as the result of a certain royal authority and love of mankind, and not as a deliverance from punishment or a cleansing.

5. Thirdly, (let us take) the passage from the first epistle of the Blessed Paul to the Corinthians, in which he, speaking of the building on the foundation, which is Christ, “of gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble,” adds: “For that day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire” (I Cor. 3:11-15). This citation, it would seem, more than nay other introduces the idea of purgatorial fire; but in actual fact it more than any other refutes it.

First of all, the Divine Apostle called it not a purgatorial but a proving (fire); then he declared that through it good and honorable works also must pass, and such, it is clear, have no need of any cleansing; then he says that those who bring evil works, after these works burn, suffer loss, whereas those who are being cleansed not only suffer no loss, but acquire even more; then he says that this must be on “that day”, namely, the day of Judgment and of the future age, whereas to suppose the existence of a purgatorial fire after that fearful Coming of the Judge and the final sentence—is this not a total absurdity? For the Scripture does not transmit to us anything of the sort, but He Himself Who will judge us says: “And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46): and again: “They shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment (John 5:29). Therefore, there remains no kind of intermediate place; but after He divided all those under judgment into two parts, placing some on the right and others on the left, and calling the first “sheep” and the second “goats” — He did not at all declare that there are any who are to be cleansed by that fire. It would seem that the fire of which the Apostle speaks is the same as that of which the Prophet David speaks: “Fire shall blaze before Him, and round about Him shall there be a mighty tempest (Ps. 49:4); and again: “Fire shall go before Him, and shall burn up His enemies round about (Ps. 96:3). Daniel the Prophet also speaks about this fire: “A stream of fire issued and came forth from before Him (Daniel 7:10).

Since the saints do not bring with them any evil work or evil mark, this fire manifests them as even brighter, as gold tried in the fire, or as the stone amianthus, which, as it is related, when placed in fire appears as charred, but when taken out of the fire becomes even cleaner, as if washed with water, as were also the bodies of the Three Youths in the Babylonian furnace. Sinners, however, who bring evil with themselves, are seized as a suitable material for this fire and are immediately ignited by it, and their “work,” that is, their evil disposition or activity, is burned and utterly destroyed and they are deprived of what they brought with them, that is, deprived of their burden of evil, while they themselves are “saved”–that is, will be preserved and kept forever, so that they might not be subjected to destruction together with their evil."
 
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Noticeably, the Latins bring up the same exact arguments that Saint Gregory the Dialogist uses for Purgatory, and Saint Mark of Ephesus refutes them.

1. Saint Gregory the Dialogist says that before the Last Judgment, there is a Purgatorial Fire, and that the Apostle Paul in writing "trying by fire" by burning "hay, wood, stubble" is an explicit reference to this Purgatorial Fire. The "hay, wood, and stubble" for Saint Gregory the Dialogist are smaller sins which will be burned away by fire, and "gold, silver and brass" are major sins which can't be burned away by fire.

2. Saint Mark of Ephesus says there is no Purgatorial Fire, and that any purging of sin would be by other means besides Purgatorial Fire - either finishing up something on Earth, or by being placed in Hades and being saved through the prayers of others. He says that the "trying by fire" and burning "hay, wood, and stubble" in understanding that as Purgatorial Fire is nonsense, because there are only two places mentioned in that verse - Heaven and Hell - and that the entire quote is written in the context of the Last Judgment. For St. Mark, the hay, wood, and stubble doesn't refer to small sins, but rather refers to those who will be burned up by the eternal fire, and that the gold, silver refined by fire refers to the Saints experiencing the Divine Love as glory.
 
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Saint Gregory the Dialogist, Book IV of the Dialogues:

"Our Lord saith in the Gospel: Walk whiles you have the light:61 and by his Prophet he saith: In time accepted have I heard thee, and in the day of salvation have I holpen thee:62 which the Apostle St. Paul expounding, saith: Behold, 63 Solomon, likewise, saith: Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, work it instantly: for neither work, nor reason, nor knowledge, nor wisdom shall be in hell, whither thou dost hasten.64 David also saith: Because his mercy is for ever.65 By which sayings it is plain, that in such state as a man departeth out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.66 Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offences scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul saith, that Christ is the foundation: and by and by addeth: And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any mans work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.67 For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which |234 shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place.
For when I was yet in my younger years, and lived.a secular life, I heard from the mouth of mine elders, who knew it to be true: how that Paschasius, a Deacon of this Roman church (whose sound and eloquent books of the Holy Ghost be extant amongst us), was a man of a wonderful holy life, a marvelous giver of alms, a lover of the poor, and one that contemned himself. This man, in that contention which, through the exceeding hot emulation of the clergy, fell out betwixt Symmachus and Lawrence, made choice of Lawrence to be Bishop of Rome: and though he was afterward by common consent overcome, yet did he continue in his former opinion till his dying day: loving and preferring him, whom the Church, by the judgment of Bishops, refused for her governor. This Deacon ending his life in the time of Symmachus, Bishop of the Apostolic see: a man possessed with a devil came and touched his dalmatic, as it lay upon the bier, and was forthwith delivered from that vexation. Long time after, Germanus, Bishop of Capua (before mentioned), by the counsel of physicians, for the recovery of his health went to the baths: into which after he was entered, he found there standing in those hot waters the foresaid Paschasius, ready to do him service. At which |235 sight being much afraid, he demanded what so worthy a man as he was did in that place: to whom Paschasius returned this answer: "For no other cause," quoth he, "am I appointed to this place of punishment, but for that I took part with Lawrence against Symmachus: and therefore I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me, and by this token shall you know that your prayers be heard, if, at your coming again, you find me not here." Upon this, the holy man Germanus betook himself to his devotions, and after a few days he went again to the same baths, but found not Paschasius there: for seeing his fault proceeded not of malice, but of ignorance, he might after death be purged from that sin. And yet we must withal think that the plentiful alms which he bestowed in this life, obtained favour at God's hands, that he might then deserve pardon, when he could work nothing at all for himself."



Saint Mark of Ephesus, Homily on Purgatory:

"And so, at the beginning of your report you speak thus: “If those who truly repent have departed this life in love (towards God) before they were able to give satisfaction by means of worthy fruits for their transgressions or offenses, their souls are cleansed after death by means of purgatorial sufferings; but for the easing (or ‘deliverance’) of them from these sufferings, they are aided by the help which is shown them on the part of the faithful who are alive, as for example: prayers, Liturgies, almsgiving, and other works of piety.”

To this we answer the following: Of the fact that those reposed in faith are without doubt helped by the Liturgies and prayers and almsgiving performed for them, and that this custom has been in force from antiquity, there is the testimony of many and various utterances of the Teachers, both Latin and Greek, spoken and written at various times and in various places. But that souls are delivered thanks to a certain purgatorial suffering and temporal fire which possess such (a purgatorial) power and has the character of an help–this we do not find either in the Scriptures or in the prayers and hymns for the dead, or in the words of the Teachers. But we have received that even the souls which are held in hell are already given over to eternal torments, whether in actual fact and experience or in hopeless expectation of such, as can be aided and given a certain small help, although in the sense of completely loosing them from torment or giving hope for a final deliverance. And this is shown from the words of the great Macarius the Egyptian ascetic who, finding a skull in the desert, was instructed by it concerning this by the action of Diving Power. And Basil the Great, in the prayers read at Pentecost, writes literally the following: “Who also, on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hell [ literally in Greek”Hade”], granting us a great hope of improvement for those who are imprisoned from the defilements which have imprisoned them, and that Thou wilt send down Thy consolation” (Third Kneeling Prayer at Vespers).

But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though they have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have aid, has not at all been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or — if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration — they are kept in hell, but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine Goodness and Love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in the “Reflections of the Mystery of those Reposed in Faith” (in The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, VII, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives — and that completely — or lightens the responsibility for them until that final Judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by the gnawing of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be. And that this is much more tormenting and punishing than anything else, experience itself shows, and St. John Chrysostom testifies to us in almost all or at least most of his moral homilies, which affirm this, as likewise does the divine ascetic Dorotheus in hsi homily “On the Conscience…”"

. . .

"After this, a little further on, you desired to prove the above-mentioned dogma of purgatorial fire, at first quoting what is said in the book of Maccabees: It is holy and pious….to pray for the dead…that they might be delivered from their sin (2 Maccabees 12:44-45). Then, taking from the Gospel according to Matthew the place in which the Saviour declares that “whosoever shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world, nor in that which is to come” (Matt. 12:32), you say that form this one may see that there is remission of sins in the future life.

But that from this there in no way follows the idea of purgatorial fire is clearer than the son; for what is there in common between remission on one hand, and cleansing by fire and punishment on the other? For if the remission of sins is accomplished for the sake of prayers, or merely by the Divine love of mankind itself, there is no need for punishment and cleansing (by fire). But if punishment, and also cleansing, are established (by God)…then, it would seem, prayers (for the reposed) are performed in vain, and vainly do we hymn the Divine love of mankind. And so, these citation are less a proof of the existence of purgatorial fire than a refutation of it: for the remission of sins of those who have transgressed is presented in them as the result of a certain royal authority and love of mankind, and not as a deliverance from punishment or a cleansing.

5. Thirdly, (let us take) the passage from the first epistle of the Blessed Paul to the Corinthians, in which he, speaking of the building on the foundation, which is Christ, “of gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble,” adds: “For that day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire” (I Cor. 3:11-15). This citation, it would seem, more than nay other introduces the idea of purgatorial fire; but in actual fact it more than any other refutes it.

First of all, the Divine Apostle called it not a purgatorial but a proving (fire); then he declared that through it good and honorable works also must pass, and such, it is clear, have no need of any cleansing; then he says that those who bring evil works, after these works burn, suffer loss, whereas those who are being cleansed not only suffer no loss, but acquire even more; then he says that this must be on “that day”, namely, the day of Judgment and of the future age, whereas to suppose the existence of a purgatorial fire after that fearful Coming of the Judge and the final sentence—is this not a total absurdity? For the Scripture does not transmit to us anything of the sort, but He Himself Who will judge us says: “And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46): and again: “They shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment (John 5:29). Therefore, there remains no kind of intermediate place; but after He divided all those under judgment into two parts, placing some on the right and others on the left, and calling the first “sheep” and the second “goats” — He did not at all declare that there are any who are to be cleansed by that fire. It would seem that the fire of which the Apostle speaks is the same as that of which the Prophet David speaks: “Fire shall blaze before Him, and round about Him shall there be a mighty tempest (Ps. 49:4); and again: “Fire shall go before Him, and shall burn up His enemies round about (Ps. 96:3). Daniel the Prophet also speaks about this fire: “A stream of fire issued and came forth from before Him (Daniel 7:10).

Since the saints do not bring with them any evil work or evil mark, this fire manifests them as even brighter, as gold tried in the fire, or as the stone amianthus, which, as it is related, when placed in fire appears as charred, but when taken out of the fire becomes even cleaner, as if washed with water, as were also the bodies of the Three Youths in the Babylonian furnace. Sinners, however, who bring evil with themselves, are seized as a suitable material for this fire and are immediately ignited by it, and their “work,” that is, their evil disposition or activity, is burned and utterly destroyed and they are deprived of what they brought with them, that is, deprived of their burden of evil, while they themselves are “saved”–that is, will be preserved and kept forever, so that they might not be subjected to destruction together with their evil."

those two are not mutually exclusive or contradictory. the quote that was at the end before the edit shows that.
 
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Noticeably, the Latins bring up the same exact arguments that Saint Gregory the Dialogist uses for Purgatory, and Saint Mark of Ephesus refutes them.

1. Saint Gregory the Dialogist says that before the Last Judgment, there is a Purgatorial Fire, and that the Apostle Paul in writing "trying by fire" by burning "hay, wood, stubble" is an explicit reference to this Purgatorial Fire. The "hay, wood, and stubble" for Saint Gregory the Dialogist are smaller sins which will be burned away by fire, and "gold, silver and brass" are major sins which can't be burned away by fire.

2. Saint Mark of Ephesus says there is no Purgatorial Fire, and that any purging of sin would be by other means besides Purgatorial Fire - either finishing up something on Earth, or by being placed in Hades and being saved through the prayers of others. He says that the "trying by fire" and burning "hay, wood, and stubble" in understanding that as Purgatorial Fire is nonsense, because there are only two places mentioned in that verse - Heaven and Hell - and that the hay, wood, and stubble doesn't refer to small sins, but rather refers to those who will be burned up by the eternal fire, and that the gold, silver refined by fire refers to the Saints experiencing the Divine Love as glory.

where does St Gregory mention a third place?
 
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TheLostCoin

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those two are not mutually exclusive or contradictory. the quote that was at the end before the edit shows that.

I honestly think that Saint Mark of Ephesus in referencing the Dialogues is referencing a different section of the Dialogues, where Saint Gregory the Dialogist curses the body of a greedy monk, for the express purpose that the soul may change it's state before the eternal sentence.

"Here also I cannot but tell you that which happened three years since in mine own Monastery 85. A certain monk there was, called Justus, one very cunning in medicine, and whiles I remained in the Abbey, served me very diligently, attending upon me in my often infirmities and sickness. This man himself at length fell sore sick, so that in very deed he was brought to the last cast. A brother he had, called Copiosus, that had care of him, who yet liveth. Justus perceiving himself past all hope of life, told this brother of his where he had secretly laid up three crowns of gold; but yet they were not so closely conveyed, that they could be concealed from the monks: for they, carefully seeking, and tossing up all his medicines and boxes, found in one of them these three crowns hidden. Which thing so soon as I understood, very much grieved I was, and could not quietly digest so great a sin at his hands, that lived with us in community, because the rule of my Monastery was that all the monks thereof should so live in common, that none in particular might possess anything proper to himself. Being, therefore, much troubled and grieved at that which had happened, I began to think with myself what was best to be done, both for the soul of him that was now dying, and also for the edification and example of those that were yet living. At length I sent for Pretiosus, Prior of the Monastery, and gave him |251 this charge: "See," quoth I, "that none of our monks do so much as visit Justus in this his extremity, neither let any give him any comfort at all: and when his last hour draweth nigh, and he doth desire the presence of his spiritual brethren, let his carnal brother tell him that they do all detest him, for the three crowns which he had hidden: that, at least before his death, sorrow may wound his heart, and purge it from the sin committed: and when he is dead, let not his body be buried amongst the rest of the monks, but make a grave for him in some one dunghill or other, and there cast it in, together with the three crowns which he left behind him, crying out all with joint voice: 'Thy money be with thee unto perdition'; and so put earth upon him." In either of which things my mind and desire was, both to help him that was leaving the world, and also to edify the monks yet remaining behind, that both grief of death might make him pardonable for his sin, and such a severe sentence against avarice might terrify and preserve them from the like offence: both which, by God's goodness, fell out accordingly. For when the foresaid monk came to die, and carefully desired to be commended to the devotions of his brethren, and yet none of them did either visit him, or so much as speak to him: his brother Copiosus told him for what cause they had all given him over: at which words he straightways sighed for his sin, and in that sorrow gave up the ghost. And after his death, he was buried in that manner, as I had given in commandment: by which fact all the monks were so terrified, that they began each one to seek out the least and basest things in their cells, and which by the rule they might lawfully keep: and very much they feared, lest some thing they had, for which they might be blamed.

Thirty days after his departure, I began to take compassion upon him, and with great grief to think of his |252 punishment, and what means there was to help him: whereupon I called again for Pretiosus, Prior of my Monastery, and with an heavy heart spake thus unto him: "It is now a good while since that our brother which is departed remaineth in the torments of fire, and therefore we must shew him some charity, and labour what we may to procure his delivery: wherefore go your way, and see that for thirty days following sacrifice be offered for him, so that no one day pass in which, for his absolution and discharge, the healthful sacrifice be not offered": who forthwith departed, and put my commandment in execution. In the mean time, my mind being busied about other affairs, so that I took no heed to the days how they passed: upon a certain night the same monk that was dead, appeared to his brother Copiosus: who, seeing him, enquired of his state in this manner: "What is the matter, brother? and how is it with you?" to whom he answered thus: "Hitherto have I been in bad case, but now I am well; for this day have I received the communion": with which news Copiosus straightways coming to the Monastery, told the monks: and they diligently counting the days, found it to be that in which the thirtieth sacrifice was offered for his soul: and so, though neither Copiosus knew what the monks had done for him, nor they what he had seen concerning the state of his brother, yet at one and the same time both he knew what they had done, and they what he had seen, and so the sacrifice and vision agreeing together, apparent it was that the dead monk was by the holy sacrifice delivered from his pains."
 
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TheLostCoin

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where does St Gregory mention a third place?

He doesn't. I'm not suggesting that Saint Gregory the Great holds to the Purgatorial system that developed with Scholastic Theology in the West. Yet it seems very clear that he felt that there was purging fire before the Last Judgment for minor sins, not major sins. Saint Mark of Ephesus is adament that any purging of sins before the Last Judgment is anything but fire in of itself.

I don't think you can classify Saint Gregory the Great as completely Roman Catholic or completely Eastern Orthodox.

Saint Gregory the Great seems to very clearly hold to a belief that the fate of a soul sentenced to Hades for serious sins can be changed through the prayers of the Church before the Last Judgment - something I believe would be unthinkable with the Western development of the Doctrine of the Particular Judgment.

Not only in the above story I've posted, but there is another story with Saint Benedict.

Back then in the Roman Liturgy, they would have the Deacon announce to the Church for the Catechumens and those not-worthy to receive the Eucharist to depart (something that even persisted post-schism, but was ultimately gotten rid of via Trent). When the Deacon announced it one day, two dead nuns arose out of their graves and walked away from the Church. This happened several times. They implored Saint Benedict to help, so he prayed for them and buried them with the Eucharist (!!!), and when the Deacon announced the next Mass, the nuns remained buried.

The weird Eucharist superstition aside (trust me, not even Catholics today would be that superstitious), it seems really disconnected from the Doctrine of the Particular Judgment.
 
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He doesn't. I'm not suggesting that Saint Gregory the Great holds to the Purgatorial system that developed with Scholastic Theology in the West. Yet it seems very clear that he felt that there was purging fire before the Last Judgment for minor sins, not major sins. Saint Mark of Ephesus is adament that any purging of sins before the Last Judgment is anything but fire in of itself.

depends on how you define what that fire is. St Mark could be using other terminology to show the clear distinction with Latin errors. in that case, he isn't contradicting St Gregory.
 
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I honestly think that Saint Mark of Ephesus in referencing the Dialogues is referencing a different section of the Dialogues, where Saint Gregory the Dialogist curses the body of a greedy monk, for the express purpose that the soul may change it's state before the eternal sentence.

"Here also I cannot but tell you that which happened three years since in mine own Monastery 85. A certain monk there was, called Justus, one very cunning in medicine, and whiles I remained in the Abbey, served me very diligently, attending upon me in my often infirmities and sickness. This man himself at length fell sore sick, so that in very deed he was brought to the last cast. A brother he had, called Copiosus, that had care of him, who yet liveth. Justus perceiving himself past all hope of life, told this brother of his where he had secretly laid up three crowns of gold; but yet they were not so closely conveyed, that they could be concealed from the monks: for they, carefully seeking, and tossing up all his medicines and boxes, found in one of them these three crowns hidden. Which thing so soon as I understood, very much grieved I was, and could not quietly digest so great a sin at his hands, that lived with us in community, because the rule of my Monastery was that all the monks thereof should so live in common, that none in particular might possess anything proper to himself. Being, therefore, much troubled and grieved at that which had happened, I began to think with myself what was best to be done, both for the soul of him that was now dying, and also for the edification and example of those that were yet living. At length I sent for Pretiosus, Prior of the Monastery, and gave him |251 this charge: "See," quoth I, "that none of our monks do so much as visit Justus in this his extremity, neither let any give him any comfort at all: and when his last hour draweth nigh, and he doth desire the presence of his spiritual brethren, let his carnal brother tell him that they do all detest him, for the three crowns which he had hidden: that, at least before his death, sorrow may wound his heart, and purge it from the sin committed: and when he is dead, let not his body be buried amongst the rest of the monks, but make a grave for him in some one dunghill or other, and there cast it in, together with the three crowns which he left behind him, crying out all with joint voice: 'Thy money be with thee unto perdition'; and so put earth upon him." In either of which things my mind and desire was, both to help him that was leaving the world, and also to edify the monks yet remaining behind, that both grief of death might make him pardonable for his sin, and such a severe sentence against avarice might terrify and preserve them from the like offence: both which, by God's goodness, fell out accordingly. For when the foresaid monk came to die, and carefully desired to be commended to the devotions of his brethren, and yet none of them did either visit him, or so much as speak to him: his brother Copiosus told him for what cause they had all given him over: at which words he straightways sighed for his sin, and in that sorrow gave up the ghost. And after his death, he was buried in that manner, as I had given in commandment: by which fact all the monks were so terrified, that they began each one to seek out the least and basest things in their cells, and which by the rule they might lawfully keep: and very much they feared, lest some thing they had, for which they might be blamed.

Thirty days after his departure, I began to take compassion upon him, and with great grief to think of his |252 punishment, and what means there was to help him: whereupon I called again for Pretiosus, Prior of my Monastery, and with an heavy heart spake thus unto him: "It is now a good while since that our brother which is departed remaineth in the torments of fire, and therefore we must shew him some charity, and labour what we may to procure his delivery: wherefore go your way, and see that for thirty days following sacrifice be offered for him, so that no one day pass in which, for his absolution and discharge, the healthful sacrifice be not offered": who forthwith departed, and put my commandment in execution. In the mean time, my mind being busied about other affairs, so that I took no heed to the days how they passed: upon a certain night the same monk that was dead, appeared to his brother Copiosus: who, seeing him, enquired of his state in this manner: "What is the matter, brother? and how is it with you?" to whom he answered thus: "Hitherto have I been in bad case, but now I am well; for this day have I received the communion": with which news Copiosus straightways coming to the Monastery, told the monks: and they diligently counting the days, found it to be that in which the thirtieth sacrifice was offered for his soul: and so, though neither Copiosus knew what the monks had done for him, nor they what he had seen concerning the state of his brother, yet at one and the same time both he knew what they had done, and they what he had seen, and so the sacrifice and vision agreeing together, apparent it was that the dead monk was by the holy sacrifice delivered from his pains."

you really need to make smaller posts.
 
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you really need to make smaller posts.

Sorry.

Basically, a monk was caught hoarding money donated to the Monastery; he was facing death, so when Saint Gregory found out about this, he told the other monks to not visit him and leave him alone until he was close to death, at which point they should all visit him and tell him they all detest him for his greed. After he died, they should bury him in a dunghill, and toss the coins at him saying "thy money be with thee unto perdition." He said he did this to evoke fear in that monks soul so that he may avoid the dreadful fate of eternal fire, and to send a stern lesson to the other monks about illicitly keeping possessions. Upon doing all of this, all the monks immediately went to their rooms and emptied out any hidden possessions they had. Saint Gregory then proceeded to say several Masses for him, and then that monk who died appeared to a monk, saying that he feels well, because he was finally admitted to Communion.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Sorry.

Basically, a monk was caught hoarding money donated to the Monastery; he was facing death, so when Saint Gregory found out about this, he told the other monks to not visit him and leave him alone until he was close to death, at which point they should all visit him and tell him they all detest him for his greed. After he died, they should bury him in a dunghill, and toss the coins at him saying "thy money be with thee unto perdition." He said he did this to evoke fear in that monks soul so that he may avoid the dreadful fate of eternal fire, and to send a stern lesson to the other monks about illicitly keeping possessions. Upon doing all of this, all the monks immediately went to their rooms and emptied out any hidden possessions they had. Saint Gregory then proceeded to say several Masses for him, and then that monk who died appeared to a monk, saying that he feels well, because he was finally admitted to Communion.

I read your posts, it's just much.
 
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TheLostCoin

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depends on how you define what that fire is. St Mark could be using other terminology to show the clear distinction with Latin errors. in that case, he isn't contradicting St Gregory.

I think the fact that Saint Gregory is using the words "purging fire" and understanding that famous verse of Paul in a Purgatory-Catholic sense makes it clear that he felt that there was a fire which purges away small sins after death.

Something obviously unacceptable to Saint Mark.

Also, Saint Mark basically says that if Saint Gregory the Dialogist taught Purgatory, he's wrong.

"And this is not surprising, for he is a man, and many even among the Teachers may be seen to interpret passages of Scripture in various ways, and not all of them have attained in an equal degree the precise meaning. It is not possible that one and the same text, being handed down in various interpretations, should correspond in an equal degree to all the interpretations, should correspond in an equal degree to all the interpretations of it; but we, selecting the most important of them and those that best correspond to church dogmas, should place the other interpretations in second place. Therefore, we shall not deviate from the above-cited interpretation of the Apostle’s words, even if Augustine or Gregory the Dialogist or another of of your Teachers should give such an interpretation; for such an interpretation answers less to the ideas of a temporary purgatorial fire than to the teaching of Origen which, speaking of a final restoration of souls through that fire and a deliverance from torment, was forbidden and given over to anathema by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and was definitively overthrown as a common impiety for the Church."
 
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I honestly think that Saint Mark of Ephesus in referencing the Dialogues is referencing a different section of the Dialogues, where Saint Gregory the Dialogist curses the body of a greedy monk, for the express purpose that the soul may change it's state before the eternal sentence.

"Here also I cannot but tell you that which happened three years since in mine own Monastery 85. A certain monk there was, called Justus, one very cunning in medicine, and whiles I remained in the Abbey, served me very diligently, attending upon me in my often infirmities and sickness. This man himself at length fell sore sick, so that in very deed he was brought to the last cast. A brother he had, called Copiosus, that had care of him, who yet liveth. Justus perceiving himself past all hope of life, told this brother of his where he had secretly laid up three crowns of gold; but yet they were not so closely conveyed, that they could be concealed from the monks: for they, carefully seeking, and tossing up all his medicines and boxes, found in one of them these three crowns hidden. Which thing so soon as I understood, very much grieved I was, and could not quietly digest so great a sin at his hands, that lived with us in community, because the rule of my Monastery was that all the monks thereof should so live in common, that none in particular might possess anything proper to himself. Being, therefore, much troubled and grieved at that which had happened, I began to think with myself what was best to be done, both for the soul of him that was now dying, and also for the edification and example of those that were yet living. At length I sent for Pretiosus, Prior of the Monastery, and gave him |251 this charge: "See," quoth I, "that none of our monks do so much as visit Justus in this his extremity, neither let any give him any comfort at all: and when his last hour draweth nigh, and he doth desire the presence of his spiritual brethren, let his carnal brother tell him that they do all detest him, for the three crowns which he had hidden: that, at least before his death, sorrow may wound his heart, and purge it from the sin committed: and when he is dead, let not his body be buried amongst the rest of the monks, but make a grave for him in some one dunghill or other, and there cast it in, together with the three crowns which he left behind him, crying out all with joint voice: 'Thy money be with thee unto perdition'; and so put earth upon him." In either of which things my mind and desire was, both to help him that was leaving the world, and also to edify the monks yet remaining behind, that both grief of death might make him pardonable for his sin, and such a severe sentence against avarice might terrify and preserve them from the like offence: both which, by God's goodness, fell out accordingly. For when the foresaid monk came to die, and carefully desired to be commended to the devotions of his brethren, and yet none of them did either visit him, or so much as speak to him: his brother Copiosus told him for what cause they had all given him over: at which words he straightways sighed for his sin, and in that sorrow gave up the ghost. And after his death, he was buried in that manner, as I had given in commandment: by which fact all the monks were so terrified, that they began each one to seek out the least and basest things in their cells, and which by the rule they might lawfully keep: and very much they feared, lest some thing they had, for which they might be blamed.

Thirty days after his departure, I began to take compassion upon him, and with great grief to think of his |252 punishment, and what means there was to help him: whereupon I called again for Pretiosus, Prior of my Monastery, and with an heavy heart spake thus unto him: "It is now a good while since that our brother which is departed remaineth in the torments of fire, and therefore we must shew him some charity, and labour what we may to procure his delivery: wherefore go your way, and see that for thirty days following sacrifice be offered for him, so that no one day pass in which, for his absolution and discharge, the healthful sacrifice be not offered": who forthwith departed, and put my commandment in execution. In the mean time, my mind being busied about other affairs, so that I took no heed to the days how they passed: upon a certain night the same monk that was dead, appeared to his brother Copiosus: who, seeing him, enquired of his state in this manner: "What is the matter, brother? and how is it with you?" to whom he answered thus: "Hitherto have I been in bad case, but now I am well; for this day have I received the communion": with which news Copiosus straightways coming to the Monastery, told the monks: and they diligently counting the days, found it to be that in which the thirtieth sacrifice was offered for his soul: and so, though neither Copiosus knew what the monks had done for him, nor they what he had seen concerning the state of his brother, yet at one and the same time both he knew what they had done, and they what he had seen, and so the sacrifice and vision agreeing together, apparent it was that the dead monk was by the holy sacrifice delivered from his pains."
I don't find this consistent with purgatory. He was experiencing a foretaste of Hell until he was delivered by the prayers of his brothers.
 
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I think the fact that Saint Gregory is using the words "purging fire" and understanding that famous verse of Paul in a Purgatory-Catholic sense makes it clear that he felt that there was a fire which purges away small sins after death.

Something obviously unacceptable to Saint Mark.

Also, Saint Mark basically says that if Saint Gregory the Dialogist taught Purgatory, he's wrong.

"And this is not surprising, for he is a man, and many even among the Teachers may be seen to interpret passages of Scripture in various ways, and not all of them have attained in an equal degree the precise meaning. It is not possible that one and the same text, being handed down in various interpretations, should correspond in an equal degree to all the interpretations, should correspond in an equal degree to all the interpretations of it; but we, selecting the most important of them and those that best correspond to church dogmas, should place the other interpretations in second place. Therefore, we shall not deviate from the above-cited interpretation of the Apostle’s words, even if Augustine or Gregory the Dialogist or another of of your Teachers should give such an interpretation; for such an interpretation answers less to the ideas of a temporary purgatorial fire than to the teaching of Origen which, speaking of a final restoration of souls through that fire and a deliverance from torment, was forbidden and given over to anathema by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and was definitively overthrown as a common impiety for the Church."

I don't think so. the Latin understanding of the purging fire during St Mary's time was not the same as St Gregory's.
 
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TheLostCoin

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I don't find this consistent with purgatory. He was experiencing a foretaste of Hell until he was delivered by the prayers of his brothers.

Yeah. That was the point of me posting that. Saint Mark of Ephesus is, I believe, referencing this section to show the Latins are wrong about Purgatory. However, it ignores the other Purgatory section.
 
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TheLostCoin

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I don't think so. the Latin understanding of the purging fire during St Mark's time was not the same as St Gregory's.

So, do you believe that after death, we can experience a fire which purges away our small sins, and that Saint Paul in his writing was referring to gold, silver, and brass as major sins, and hay and wood referring to minor sins?

And do you think Saint Mark of Ephesus would believe such an understanding?



Look - I'm not saying that either Saint is compatible or incompatible with Orthodoxy on this point. I'm trying to say is that both Saints held to a very explicit and precise view about the Afterlife, and these explicit and precise views contradict.

If we are to strictly read Saint Gregory the Great from an Orthodox point of view, we can read into him the "Uncreated Fire" that flows from the Judgment Throne. Perhaps God's Divine Love will purge away the small sins that still are attached to our souls during the Last Judgment.

I think that Saint Mark of Ephesus rejects the idea that any fire has purging qualities to it, and if there is purging up to the Last Judgment, it's in the form of prayers liberating one from Hades, or fear of Hell which purges sin itself.




One more thing I will point out:

It's clearly the case that "Hell" became an interchangeable term between "Hades" and "Gehenna" in the Latin Vulgate.

Saint Gregory the Dialogist believed that "Hell", as it exists now, is below the Earth, and the fire of "Hell" is a literal, corporeal fire.

"GREGORY. And whether do you think that the fire of hell is corporal or spiritual?

PETER. I make no doubt but that it is corporal, seeing most certain it is that bodies be burned therewith.

GREGORY. And as certain it is that, at the day of judgment, our Saviour shall say to the reprobate: Go into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels.39 If, then, the devil and his angels, though without bodies, shall be tormented with corporal fire, what marvel is it that the souls after their departure, and before they be united again to their bodies, may in like manner suffer corporal torments?"



"GREGORY. Touching this point I dare not rashly define anything: for some have been of opinion that hell was in some place 69 so that the higher hell may seem to be upon the earth, and the lower under the earth: and with this opinion that sentence of John agreeth, who, when he had said, that he saw a book sealed with seven seals: and that none was found worthy, neither in heaven, nor in earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, and loose the seals thereof:70 he added forthwith: and I wept much: which book, notwithstanding, afterward he saith was opened by a lion of the tribe of Juda. By which book, what else can be meant but the holy scripture, which our Saviour alone did open: for being made man, by his death, resurrection, and ascension, he did reveal and make manifest all those mysteries which in that book were closed and shut up. And none in heaven, because not any Angel; none upon earth, because not man living in body; not any under the earth was found worthy: because neither the souls departed from their bodies could open unto us, beside our Lord himself, the secrets of that sacred book. Seeing, then, none under the earth is said to be found worthy to open that book, I see not what doth let, but that we should believe that hell is in the lower parts, under the earth."



But Saint Gregory the Dialogist says that there is one Fire of Hell, and that it affects sinners differently.

"GREGORY. The fire of hell is but one: yet doth it not in one manner torment all sinners. For every one there, according to the quantity of his sin, |238 hath the measure of his pain. For as, in this world, many live under one and the same sun, and yet do not alike feel the heat thereof: for some be burnt more, and some less: so in that one fire, divers manners of burning be found, for that which in this world diversity of bodies doth, that in the next doth diversity of sins: so that although the fire be there all alike, yet doth it not in one manner and alike burn and torment them that be damned."
 
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So, do you believe that after death, we can experience a fire which purges away our small sins, and that Saint Paul in his writing was referring to gold, silver, and brass as major sins, and hay and wood referring to minor sins?

And do you think Saint Mark of Ephesus would believe such an understanding?



Look - I'm not saying that either Saint is compatible or incompatible with Orthodoxy on this point. I'm trying to say is that both Saints held to a very explicit and precise view about the Afterlife, and these explicit and precise views contradict.

If we are to strictly read Saint Gregory the Great from an Orthodox point of view, we can read into him the "Uncreated Fire" that flows from the Judgment Throne. Perhaps God's Divine Love will purge away the small sins that still are attached to our souls during the Last Judgment.

I think that Saint Mark of Ephesus rejects the idea that any fire has purging qualities to it, and if there is purging up to the Last Judgment, it's in the form of prayers liberating one from Hades, or fear of Hell which purges sin itself.




One more thing I will point out:

It's clearly the case that "Hell" became an interchangeable term between "Hades" and "Gehenna" in the Latin Vulgate.

Saint Gregory the Dialogist believed that "Hell", as it exists now, is below the Earth, and the fire of "Hell" is a literal, corporeal fire.

"GREGORY. And whether do you think that the fire of hell is corporal or spiritual?

PETER. I make no doubt but that it is corporal, seeing most certain it is that bodies be burned therewith.

GREGORY. And as certain it is that, at the day of judgment, our Saviour shall say to the reprobate: Go into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels.39 If, then, the devil and his angels, though without bodies, shall be tormented with corporal fire, what marvel is it that the souls after their departure, and before they be united again to their bodies, may in like manner suffer corporal torments?"



"GREGORY. Touching this point I dare not rashly define anything: for some have been of opinion that hell was in some place 69 so that the higher hell may seem to be upon the earth, and the lower under the earth: and with this opinion that sentence of John agreeth, who, when he had said, that he saw a book sealed with seven seals: and that none was found worthy, neither in heaven, nor in earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, and loose the seals thereof:70 he added forthwith: and I wept much: which book, notwithstanding, afterward he saith was opened by a lion of the tribe of Juda. By which book, what else can be meant but the holy scripture, which our Saviour alone did open: for being made man, by his death, resurrection, and ascension, he did reveal and make manifest all those mysteries which in that book were closed and shut up. And none in heaven, because not any Angel; none upon earth, because not man living in body; not any under the earth was found worthy: because neither the souls departed from their bodies could open unto us, beside our Lord himself, the secrets of that sacred book. Seeing, then, none under the earth is said to be found worthy to open that book, I see not what doth let, but that we should believe that hell is in the lower parts, under the earth."



But Saint Gregory the Dialogist says that there is one Fire of Hell, and that it affects sinners differently.

"GREGORY. The fire of hell is but one: yet doth it not in one manner torment all sinners. For every one there, according to the quantity of his sin, |238 hath the measure of his pain. For as, in this world, many live under one and the same sun, and yet do not alike feel the heat thereof: for some be burnt more, and some less: so in that one fire, divers manners of burning be found, for that which in this world diversity of bodies doth, that in the next doth diversity of sins: so that although the fire be there all alike, yet doth it not in one manner and alike burn and torment them that be damned."

the fact that St Gregory mentions the bodiless demons are tormented shows that it's not a fire like any earthly fire that we know of.

which again, means they don't necessarily contradict.

and yes, I do believe St Mark affirms an everlasting and purging fire, which I think Fr Seraphim Rose mentions. just not as the Latins understood it. I am pretty sure he is just attacking the West's theological excess.
 
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buzuxi02

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When you say "revealed to the Church" my BS meter starts pinging. It sounds more like to me that a bunch of bishops got together, appreciative of the fact that Justinian stood against heresy, and decided to overlook his violent life.

He was venerated in the east. In fact both he and his wife (who was non-chalcedonian) are saints. He built Hagia Sophia and modernized the royal city, he completely codified and rewrote civil law. He is basically the Father of womens rights especially for poor women with the help of his wife. He reoriented Roman society towards being more conducive to work out ones salvation. Etc
 
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