The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

fhansen said:

Even if they were advantaged in grace, knowledge, whatever, such that they should be culpable, at least, for their sin, how does that absolve God from creating the rest of us incapable of refraining from sin-and then blaming and punishing us for being incapable of refraining from sin? How would that square with any kind of justice?

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We are a fallen race, but we were not that way when God created Mankind. I don't see anything about this that is either surprising or unfair of God. He did, after all, also provide a way by which we may yet attain to eternal life--through the sacrifice of his son. That's not unfair. It's not even deserved on our part.

Dave L said:

We are both claiming the same thing, the other reads their ideas into the text. So this means nobody knows the truth. But I've shown "whoever chooses to believe" is foreign to the text. Where I let the text say what it says; "whoever believes". Which means belief is a trait of those whom God saves. This leads to two different gospels. Possibly two different Christ's if denial of grace persists.

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You're bringing to the text the idea that only some can believe. The context is the world. The whosoever is those in the world. We know that everyone can believe because John tells us that.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)

He says that Christ came into the world that all might believe through Him. Then he goes on to explain. He says that Christ is the true light that gives light to man coming into the world. John uses the singular, which is translated every man, to show that the "all" is every individual.

martymonster said:

Oh sorry, I thought you were accusing me of taking stuff out of context. It wouldn't be the first times I've been accused of that.
My argument is that I agree with Calvinists, as far as the free will thing goes. I don't agree with anything else they have to say.

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I was just making the point that the passages they use are out of context. That's probably the biggest reason I see for people not understanding the Bible. Christians are taught "what the Bible teaches" and then are taught to jump all over the book to find passages that can seem to fit what they're claiming. Who does that with any other book? If we read a history, book we read it sequentially. We don't jump all over the place. Another problem I see is that Christians will read passages and just claim that because they're a Christian, and the book contains Christians, that it all applies to them. We don't do that with any other history book. If we saw a quote in an American history book where George Washington said, all of us Americans have muskets, surely we wouldn't claim, just because we're Americans too, that every American today has a musket. Yet, Christians do this very things with the Scriptures. I think for the most part Christianity today is just a bunch of Scripture passages taken out of context.

On the free will issue, we don't really have to debate. We can see from looking at the writings of those who followed the apostles that there was no question about free will. It's all over their writings. They actually wrote against the idea that all things were fated.

His student said:

Would the free willies and the anti free willies please give us a brief statement on what they mean by the term free will?

Thanks.

For what it's worth - when I use the term free will I mean it in the general sense - the way most people in this world mean it.

I.e. - people can do as they wish within their own nature to do those things. No one is coercing or forcing them to make any certain decision. It is their decision to make and do as they are able to decide and carry through with that decision.

Pertaining to our discussion here is the idea that God does not negate or do violence to our God given freedoms and therefore we are responsible for our choices.

That is what I mean by free will and in that sense I believe in and teach free will.

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I can agree with this. I would just add for the Calvinist that John tells us that Jesus gives light (understanding) to every person coming into the world. So, it's not a issue of what makes one person better than the other?

Albion said:

We are a fallen race, but we were not that way when God created Mankind. I don't see anything about this that is either surprising or unfair of God. He did, after all, also provide a way by which we may yet attain to eternal life--through the sacrifice of his son. That's not unfair. It's not even deserved on our part.

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And yet we must consider that we're speaking of eternal torment here, for something that a person allegedly deserves because they were created in a state in which they couldn't do otherwise but sin. But to consider a person who simply, adamantly and willfully causes grievous harm to neighbor consistently and selfishly, persistently placing his desires ahead of anyone else's needs, opposing and mocking the demands of love, I might say, yes, this person has made themselves a candidate for hell. So, yes, if God offers a way to attain eternal life equally to all, and some refuse the offer, I can agree that justice has been served.

Dave L said:

Paul says he judges us in Adam first and then in ourselves.

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The real question is, by what criteria does He base His judgment?

Butch5 said:

I can agree with this. I would just add for the Calvinist that John tells us that Jesus gives light (understanding) to every person coming into the world. So, it's not a issue of what makes one person better than the other?

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And I agree with you on this.

Of course some persons obviously receive more light than others.

By the way the Calvinist doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election say that no person is better than another.

I personally don't believe in unconditional election as it is usually taught.

Butch5 said:

I was just making the point that the passages they use are out of context. That's probably the biggest reason I see for people not understanding the Bible. Christians are taught "what the Bible teaches" and then are taught to jump all over the book to find passages that can seem to fit what they're claiming.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you there. That's not what scripture teaches.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

That little book, sealed with seven seals, is the scriptures. Sealed with seven seals means, it is completely sealed. The only person who can reveal what is written inside, is Jesus Christ. That completely flies in the face of the this who "just read it in context" school of thought. It is not meant to be understood, but by very few. If it could be understood by just reading it in context, how would it be completely sealed?

His student said:

And I agree with you on this.

Of course some persons obviously receive more light than others.

By the way the Calvinist doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election say that no person is better than another.

I personally don't believe in unconditional election as it is usually taught.

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I've had numerous Calvinists ask me what makes me better than someone else because I believe and someone else doesn't.

martymonster said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. That's not what scripture teaches.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

That little book, sealed with seven seals, is the scriptures. Sealed with seven seals means, it is completely sealed. The only person who can reveal what is written inside, is Jesus Christ. That completely flies in the face of the this who "just read it in context" school of thought. It is not meant to be understood, but by very few. If it could be understood by just reading it in context, how would it be completely sealed?

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The little book is the Scriptures? Do you have anything to support this? Are you saying the Scriptures are not meant to be understood? What would be the point in God giving the Scriptures if they were not to be understood?

Butch5 said:

The little book is the Scriptures? Do you have anything to support this? Are you saying the Scriptures are not meant to be understood? What would be the point in God giving the Scriptures if they were not to be understood?

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They are only meant to be understood by a relatively small group. Of course, if you think that God is busily running around trying to save everyone form some fabled eternal punishment, then of course you can't think that.

martymonster said:

They are only meant to be understood by a relatively small group. Of course, if you think that God is busily running around trying to save everyone form some fabled eternal punishment, then of course you can't think that.

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I don't believe in eternal punishment. Do you have anything to support you claim that they are only meant to be understood by a relatively small group?

Butch5 said:

I don't believe in eternal punishment. Do you have anything to support you claim that they are only meant to be understood by a relatively small group?

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Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Dave L said:

We can only speculate. But Paul says he imputed Adam's sin to us, our sins to Christ, and Christ's righteousness to us. = We have God's righteousness, not Adam's, had he never sinned.

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Well, there’s more to it than that. While believers are certainly forgiven of sin they’re also made new creations and exhorted and expected and enabled to do good, to be more than “snow covered dung-heaps”:

“For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Eph 2:10

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

In separating the sheep from the goats in Matt 25 Jesus lists the works one might do and tells us:
“Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Matt 25:40

“Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?”

“Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied, “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:16-17

The Church sums this up simply with a quote from a 16th century believer:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

That’s what faith in God is meant to produce in us. Yes, "God's righteousness", the righteousness we were created to have but which Adam forfeited.

Butch5 said:

I've had numerous Calvinists ask me what makes me better than someone else because I believe and someone else doesn't.

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Not because they believe you are but because they feel that you must think you are.

Kind of a take off on "Spureon's Arminian Prayer" which he coined in order to illustrate the human pride underlying the idea of an unsaved, ungodly, rebellious – and spiritually dead – sinner exercising his “free-will” to choose the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior, i.e. to come to Christ of his own free-will. It was a takeoff on the prayer of the Pharisee that Jesus used as an illustration.

In his sermon Spurgeon says, among other things:
"...Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the.............But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

'Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

martymonster said:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

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I don't see how this supports your argument. Yes, the Sadducees and the Pharisees were kept from understanding. However, in the overall scheme of things they would be a small number. Paul said that blindness in part had come to Israel.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.1 (Rom. 11:25 KJV)

We know from this that part of Israel was blinded to the message. But again, that would be a small number compared to the Gentiles that would come to know. The times of the Gentiles has been ongoing since the days of the apostles.

His student said:

In his sermon Spurgeon says, among other things:
"...Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall...

But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him.

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And yet the Church, for its part, has always believed this. To do otherwise would be to support Pelagianism, which was denounced centuries ago. No man's will is entirely free, no man can save himself; we're lost. Christ must come to us; the Holy Spirit must work in us first to establish cooperation between man and God; we cannot possibly say "yes" without grace. Where the will comes in is only in the fact that we can still say "no"; we can refuse to be saved; we can resist grace IOW. From Eden until now God does not dominate or force or override the human will even though He obviously could.