When did Christ descend from heaven then ascend back to heaven before His crucifiction?

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
John 1

16From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

Another very stark example is found in Exodus.

Exodus 3

1Meanwhile, Moses was shepherding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro,a the priest of Midian. He led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush

and then ...

5“Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”d 6Then He said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

At this, Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Now ... first and foremost Jesus is NOT a created being.

The word angel means messenger. Sometimes the word angel is used in reference to the actual created angelic beings .... sometimes referenced to a human being and ... yes ... sometimes in relation to the divine. When used in relation to the divine this in NO WAY diminishes or dismisses that Jesus IS God. Jesus was/is the divine messenger ... He is God.

So one can do a search on angels ... angel of the Lord etc. but be very very certain of the context in which the word angel is being used.

If no one has never seen God ( No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son).. and an a "angel of the Lord" appeared to Moses ... then who appeared on Mt. Sanai must be Jesus, who made the covenant with Israel etc. including the 10 commandments.

Everything was created through Jesus for him and by Him.

John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

He is our creator as well.

Jesus does the works of the Father since the beginning and throughout history ... they are co-equal in everything and always have been.

John 14:9

New International Version
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus has been doing the Fathers work since the beginning and throughout history.

John 5:17
King James Version
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The works of Christ are the works of the Father, both because they are one God, and also because the Father does not work except in (through) the Son.

Very compelling evidence indeed my friend. I completely forgot about the aspect that no one has ever seen The Father which is also reinforced in John 6. Excellent work!!

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
John 1

16From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

Another very stark example is found in Exodus.

Exodus 3

1Meanwhile, Moses was shepherding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro,a the priest of Midian. He led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush

and then ...

5“Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”d 6Then He said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

At this, Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Now ... first and foremost Jesus is NOT a created being.

The word angel means messenger. Sometimes the word angel is used in reference to the actual created angelic beings .... sometimes referenced to a human being and ... yes ... sometimes in relation to the divine. When used in relation to the divine this in NO WAY diminishes or dismisses that Jesus IS God. Jesus was/is the divine messenger ... He is God.

So one can do a search on angels ... angel of the Lord etc. but be very very certain of the context in which the word angel is being used.

If no one has never seen God ( No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son).. and an a "angel of the Lord" appeared to Moses ... then who appeared on Mt. Sanai must be Jesus, who made the covenant with Israel etc. including the 10 commandments.

Everything was created through Jesus for him and by Him.

John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

He is our creator as well.

Jesus does the works of the Father since the beginning and throughout history ... they are co-equal in everything and always have been.

John 14:9

New International Version
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus has been doing the Fathers work since the beginning and throughout history.

John 5:17
King James Version
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The works of Christ are the works of the Father, both because they are one God, and also because the Father does not work except in (through) the Son.

I’m actually a bit embarrassed that I didn’t think of this. Lol

eleos1954 · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I’m actually a bit embarrassed that I didn’t think of this. Lol

A lot to remember ... a lot ... don't be embarrassed ;o) I revisit scripture many many many times

Carl Emerson · Nov 15, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Melchizedek was an ordinary human being.

Heb 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end
of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

An ordinary Human being does not have neither end of time or beginning of days...

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
A lot to remember ... a lot ... don't be embarrassed ;o) I revisit scripture many many many times

Yes I know, it was just one of those moments where you go “Ahhh I KNEW THAT!!” :doh:

Carl Emerson · Nov 15, 2019

Congrats on the loving attitude I am seeing - a breath of fresh air... :amen:

Carl Emerson · Nov 15, 2019

Folks dont seem to realise that one doesn't have to use scripture like a weapon - the Truth has a power of it's own and doesn't need to be pushed...

Phil W · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“No one has ascended (past tense) into heaven, but (except) He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Jesus speaks of His ascension in the past tense before His ascension that occurred after His resurrection. John 3:13 takes place before Jesus was crucified and resurrected and He says that He has already ascended in the past tense.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
It seems that Jesus is in heaven when He says this, doesn't it?
Is it impossible for Jesus to be in more than one place at a time?
I think not.
Aren't we also in two places at the same time?
Our vessel is here, occupied by the Holy Ghost; but we are also hidden with Christ in God. (Col 3:3)

Hank77 · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

When did this take place?

eleos1954 said:
Need to keep the verse in context.

In verses John 10-12, especially, we see that Jesus is talking about His authority and the validity of His teaching. Jesus tells Nicodemus that He has been teaching what He knew firsthand: “We speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen” (verse 11).

Then, in verse 13 Jesus explains why He is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom of God—namely, because He alone came down from heaven and possesses the knowledge to teach people about heaven. Jesus alone has seen the Father, and He alone is qualified to declare God and make Him known (John 1:18).

We know there have been others that were taken to heaven (ie Enoch, Moses and Elijah) ... if a human is taken to heaven .... then they can't come back to earth from there because they have been changed.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

These verses explain it for you....

mankind is from earth dust, Jesus was the only man born of earth dust, yet also from heaven....

Those that go to heaven, are changed into a different form, the form of heaven....

Good explanation, imo, especially John 1:18 explaining John 3:13.

BNR32FAN · Nov 15, 2019

Phil W said:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
It seems that Jesus is in heaven when He says this, doesn't it?
Is it impossible for Jesus to be in more than one place at a time?
I think not.
Aren't we also in two places at the same time?
Our vessel is here, occupied by the Holy Ghost; but we are also hidden with Christ in God. (Col 3:3)

The term “which is in heaven” is not in the Greek text. Please take a look at post 69. Here’s a link.

When did Christ descend from heaven then ascend back to heaven before His crucifiction?

Revealing Times · Nov 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

When did this take place?

Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are all ETERNAL !! You do understand that right ?

BNR32FAN · Nov 16, 2019

Revealing Times said:
Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are all ETERNAL !! You do understand that right ?

Yes eternal means without beginning or end. What does that have to do with whether or not Jesus descended before His incarnation?

Original Happy Camper · Nov 16, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
But He said no one has ascended to heaven, but (except) He who has descended. I’m just curious if the scriptures give an actual reference to Him descending before His incarnation? I think this statement implies that Jesus descended and ascended before His incarnation.

the angel of the Lord

Angel of the Lord
There are several stories with individuals such as Abraham, Hagar, Moses, Joshua Jacob, Gideon, Manoah and Daniel who interacted with “the angel of the Lord”. Jesus. Of the 214 uses of the Hebrew term used for “angel,” about one-third of them refer to what is labeled by theologians as a “Christophany,” a temporary appearance of Christ in the Old Testament. This “Angel of the LORD” was a title that stood for His office, but it did not describe His nature. . . It is certain, however, that this special angel of the Lord is divine in all these stories. Look at the evidence in each particular story and make your conclusion after looking at the facts. Before we dive into the subject one disclaimer needs to be mentioned. There are some Christians who teach that Jesus, before His earthly incarnation, was really just a mighty angel that had a quarrel with His wayward fellow angel Lucifer.This then leads to the conclusion that Jesus is a created being. But such teachings are unbiblical Jesus is, and always has been, God’s eternal Son and indeed God Himself. Any comparison made to Jesus as an angel in this study is simply in the search to find out who the mysterious character Michael is. The Quest lies to find the answers in God’s word and see who Michael is indeed!

Who is Michael the Archangel? - A Study

Monna · Nov 16, 2019

descend to earth; ascend to heaven, before, already, after

Lots of words and discussions around place and time. Maybe we're missing something entirely different here?

We usually refer to heaven being "up" relative to earth, and earth as "down" relative to heaven. But the very existence of earth as a round planet makes this idea nonsense. (Yes, the earth was known to be a sphere already in the 5th Century before Christ! ... look up Empedocles and Anaxagoras, Aristarchus of Samos)

Jesus himself sent out the 70 disciples to villages, with the message that "the Kingdom of Heaven is near." Paul, in 2 Cor. 12 1-4, describes an experience of "being caught up to the third heaven (whether in the body or not he did not know)." The first case makes "heaven" locationally very immediate, while the second one uses the words "caught up" figuratively, we would understand, rather than spatially. The man referred to might be said, in today's vocab to be "spaced out" - that is, neither here nor there, but "somewhere else instead."

Jesus spent a LOT of time in prayer, and fasting, communing closely with the Father. When we look for an alternative "place" for heaven (i.e. not "up") we often relate it instead to being "in the presence of God." And we believe that God is omni-present. So my feet could be on earth, and my mind/spirit in heaven at the same time.

Paul described for the Philippians how Jesus made himself "less" - i.e. a much lower status (very much "down" the social scale... human, servant, criminal-associate, subject to death - the ultimate "bottom" of everything.

I could understand the passage in John 3 to mean that the Son of Man, who came down (socially, from Godhead to servant, and from spirit to flesh), also (regularly) visited the very presence of God (socially "up," from being in the form of man, to being the very Son of God, and from flesh to spirit) every day. This also is inherent in the being born of both water and Spirit of which he has just spken to Nicodemus - one is living in both worlds similtaneously - "being in the world, but not of it."

At the time of his conversation with Nicodemus, apparently only the Son of Man had truly experienced this "displacement." And in some additional sense Jesus could say to Mary in the cemetry, "don't touch me, I haven't been "ascended" to the Father yet." If touching was prohibited just then for that reason, then he must have ascended to the Father (as he told Mary he was about to do) before he encouraged his disciples to touch him, to put their fingers in the nail holes and the wound in his side. And this would again be distinct from the event of the "Ascension" 40 days later when he left his people going "upwards into the sky" taking their gaze with him.

Revealing Times · Nov 16, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Yes eternal means without beginning or end. What does that have to do with whether or not Jesus descended before His incarnation?

.......If the Spiritual man came from Heaven he descended. Jesus was THE ROCK that Israel followed in the desert that fed them Manna.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Erik Nelson · Nov 17, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
But He said no one has ascended to heaven, but (except) He who has descended. I’m just curious if the scriptures give an actual reference to Him descending before His incarnation? I think this statement implies that Jesus descended and ascended before His incarnation.

Word became flesh
John 1:14

BNR32FAN · Nov 17, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Word became flesh
John 1:14

It appears that when men spoke to God face to face in the OT is was actually Jesus and not God The Father.

“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Semper-Fi · Nov 17, 2019

Enoch question

The scripture says that he "walked with God"
after he begat Methuselah "three hundred years."

Enoch died, [is not still] walking with God. God
removed - translated - him so that he was
not found. God took Enoch and buried him.

"all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty
and five years" if he were changed to immortality,
then his days would have been more, or ongoing.

Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among
the fathers who obtained a good report through
faith- but"these all , having obtained a good report
through faith, received not the promise"
(Heb. 11:39). What promise?

The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).

Enoch and all those of old will receive the promise
of eternal life at the return of Christ, the same time
Christians obtain it (Hebrews 11:40)

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith." 11:13

Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"?
There is a first death, and there is a second death.
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27).

It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see"
death - but that he"should not see death."
a future event.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my
saying, he shall never see death" - shall never
see - that is, suffer - the second death.

"Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall
never die" - or "shall not die forever."

Enoch will be in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).
The second death will never touch those who are.

God removed Moses - God translated him -
"convey to another place ... transfer"and
he was not found either[buried]- Acts 7:16
Jacob died his body was "carried over"

Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered
us from the power of darkness, and hath
[translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son."

Enoch had faith and was translated.
Clearly Enoch died a premature death.

Why Lamech's Boast?

Lamech boasted to his two wives: "I have slain a
man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
If Cain be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech
seventy and sevenfold" (Gen. 4:23-24).

The "man"was Cain. But who was the "young man"
Enoch walked with God. Furthermore, he prophesied
of the coming of Christ to execute judgment and to
convict the ungodly (Jude 14-15) and died young.

I think Lamech (by himself or with a mob)
stilled Enoch's voice by murder. That ungodly
generation tolerated Enoch's preaching no longer.

God physically removed his body, very likely in
the sight of his murderers - before they could defile it.
Many of the greatest men of the Bible were martyred.

Enoch going to heaven[3rd] would conflict with what
Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up
to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man" (John 3:13)

Phil W · Nov 17, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
It appears that when men spoke to God face to face in the OT is was actually Jesus and not God The Father.
“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:46‬ ‭NASB‬‬
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I rather think it was the Word who was seen, before the birth of Jesus.

Semper-Fi · Nov 17, 2019

Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life
of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

When did Christ descend from heaven then ascend back to heaven before His crucifiction?

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