Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Der Alte

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<MQ>You seem to conflate God's sovereign (or in Reformed terminology "hidden") will with his commanded will. There is plenty of evidence that God is not fooled, nor did he ever plan for every descendant of Jacob to go to heaven. God has no plan B. He does not fly by the seat of his pants. I don't deny agency. Of course we choose. But only God can make our choice valid, since there is a difference between compliance and obedience.<MQ>
I am not conflating anything. I quoted one passage of scripture and emphasized specific parts.
Where is the evidence that God did not mean what He said in Jeremiah 13? Was God confused did He NOT really mean the whole house of Israel and Judah when He said that?
I don't see what agency, choice has to do with Jeremiah 13. God stated His will in no uncertain terms.
 
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Strong in Him

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Apparently you take Reformed believers to have the attitude we can do anything we like if we are saved. /QUOTE]

I don't know how you got that from my post; I wasn't saying any such thing.

Meanwhile, 2 Peter 3:9 you have extracted from its context, which shows those he is referring to to be the elect. God is not willing that any of his elect will be lost. And so they won't.

And I am saying that I don't believe that God has "elect".
He knows already who will be saved and accept him. That doesn't mean he has planned for them to be saved so that they have no choice in the matter. What I said earlier was that if this WAS the case, an unbeliever could live their lives how they wanted, and if God was going to save them, he'd do it somehow. If this WAS the case, then if they heard the Gospel and were asked if they want to respond and believe, the correct answer should be, "no, I think I'll just go away and carry on doing my own thing. If God is going to save me, he will. I may as well rob a few more banks/go to parties and get drunk first, before he saves me and tells me to give it all up."
 
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Strong in Him

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What doesn't? John 3:16 doesn't? No, you are right, if you take it as a stand alone verse.

John 3:16 says "whoever believes", not "the elect who have been chosen, pre-selected to believe".
 
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Mark Quayle

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John 3:16 says "whoever believes", not "the elect who have been chosen, pre-selected to believe".
Of course it does. And who is it that believes?

Again, how can the dead accept the offer of salvation, or do anything pleasing to God, unless God does a work in them first, making them alive? John 3 --the Spirit goes where it will; it does not ask our permission or seek our advice.
 
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John 3:16 says "whoever believes", not "the elect who have been chosen, pre-selected to believe".
There is sufficient Scriptural evidence to almost totally convince me that
... God has given the "whoever"s the ability to believe!
 
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Strong in Him

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Of course it does. And who is it that believes?

Anyone can say 'yes' to Jesus.
Anyone who wants to can say "Lord increase my faith".

Again, how can the dead accept the offer of salvation, or do anything pleasing to God, unless God does a work in them first, making them alive?

I'm not disputing the Spirit may be working in them, drawing them to Jesus; I think I said that. But God still gives people the right to say 'no'.

Adam and Eve weren't forced to disobey God; they chose to.
Joshua wouldn't have said, "Choose this day whom you will serve", if it had all been decided in advance.
Elijah wouldn't have given the nation a choice between God and Baal if, in fact, they were destined to all belong to God.
Jesus didn't force the rich young ruler to walk away, nor many of his disciples, John 6:66.
Jesus wouldn't have preached repentance if it was not possible for people to repent of their sins; he would have told some of them they didn't need to bother because God had not chosen them for salvation.

John 3 --the Spirit goes where it will; it does not ask our permission or seek our advice.

HE doesn't need our advice; no. So HE can go to anyone; even those whom men think shouldn't, or won't, be saved.
 
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Mark Quayle

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There is sufficient Scriptural evidence to almost totally convince me that
... God has given the "whoever"s the ability to believe!

Have you considered the logical extrapolation of people having totally free will concerning this?

The question isn't whether they can believe. Of course they can. They can even gin up some sort of faith, fooling themselves that they are "in Christ". And their compliance they mistake for obedience will indeed yield positive results. The devil also believes, and trembles, because he isn't fooled.

The question is where this line takes you. If you believe that God does not cause the belief, then you are left with believers, pre-belief, being "better" in some way than unbelievers that continue to reject Christ till they die, and if that is the case, who made them better? If it is a matter of chance, not only is it not fair, (a favorite outcry by those who reject predestination), since chance apparently favored one over another, but logically there is no such thing as bare "chance" anyway. Every effect is caused.

If, on the other hand, you are saying that belief is what causes the salvation, then God caused it, and I can accept that as a possibility --as long as God is the one who placed his Spirit in the believer. A logical cause and effect that is effected by God, is what saves. But the Scripture is pretty clear that nobody can do anything apart from God, and in this case, apart from God giving that gift of faith. The believing is not without faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God, and without God, there is no salvific faith.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Anyone can say 'yes' to Jesus.
Anyone who wants to can say "Lord increase my faith".

Of course they can. What does saying something have to do with it? I've said that sort of thing many times, but I can still be fooling myself, no matter how sincere I am. Only God has the integrity to make it real. Only God has the intelligence to even know what they are having faith in, or what they are receiving!
I'm not disputing the Spirit may be working in them, drawing them to Jesus; I think I said that. But God still gives people the right to say 'no'.

Adam and Eve weren't forced to disobey God; they chose to.
Joshua wouldn't have said, "Choose this day whom you will serve", if it had all been decided in advance.
Elijah wouldn't have given the nation a choice between God and Baal if, in fact, they were destined to all belong to God.
Jesus didn't force the rich young ruler to walk away, nor many of his disciples, John 6:66.
Jesus wouldn't have preached repentance if it was not possible for people to repent of their sins; he would have told some of them they didn't need to bother because God had not chosen them for salvation.

"Forced" is a human concept for the mercy of God in yanking a person out of the grave of spiritual death. God has the right to do whatever he wants, and if "forced" is the only way you can look at it, so be it. But I can hardly stomach the term --he is tender and gentle, full of lovingkindness, (much to Jonah's dismay), and long on patience.

You apparently don't understand how the choosing happens. Of course we choose, both saved and unsaved. But our part in choosing has no power, unless it is God in us making it valid. It is HIS choice that preceeds ours. From the foundation of the world it is already decided --that does not mean we do not choose. "But as many as believed him, to them gave he power..." does not mean his gift of ability to them was his response to their belief, but his action as a function of his gift!
 
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Mark Quayle

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HE doesn't need our advice; no. So HE can go to anyone; even those whom men think shouldn't, or won't, be saved.
With this, I am in total agreement, though I don't know why you said it, if you reject predestination.
 
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Mark Quayle

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<MQ>You seem to conflate God's sovereign (or in Reformed terminology "hidden") will with his commanded will. There is plenty of evidence that God is not fooled, nor did he ever plan for every descendant of Jacob to go to heaven. God has no plan B. He does not fly by the seat of his pants. I don't deny agency. Of course we choose. But only God can make our choice valid, since there is a difference between compliance and obedience.<MQ>
I am not conflating anything. I quoted one passage of scripture and emphasized specific parts.
Where is the evidence that God did not mean what He said in Jeremiah 13? Was God confused did He NOT really mean the whole house of Israel and Judah when He said that?
I don't see what agency, choice has to do with Jeremiah 13. God stated His will in no uncertain terms.
My apologies. We seem to be talking past each other. I don't know what your point was then, in bringing up Jeremiah 13, nor in posting at all. Can you restate your point? Where do you stand on "free will" vs "predestination"?
 
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With this, I am in total agreement, though I don't know why you said it, if you reject predestination.

I was more concerned that you called the Spirit 'it' rather than 'he'. 'It' is too impersonal.
 
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Strong in Him

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Have you considered the logical extrapolation of people having totally free will concerning this?

I am not saying, at all, that a person is able to act completely independently from God. Of course they can't.
Everything we have is from God; he created us in his image, Genesis 1:26-27 and put his breath, or Spirit, in us thus giving us life, Genesis 2:7. He knows everything about us, even before we were born, Psalms 139. Salvation is also from God; it was his idea and plan, he could have destroyed us as soon as we sinned. It is God who sends his Spirit, and the Spirit who convicts someone to repent, be born again and become a child of God.

What I am saying is that I believe that this is true, or can be true, for every person - that God does not think "I'll save him, but not her; Jesus died for her, but not these people."
God loves everyone he created, and because he created and loves them, wants them to be in a relationship with him. Yet not everyone will be saved; some will reject God and his offer of eternal life. The reason for that is that God gave humans the ability to choose. Adam and Eve, the Israelites, the rich young ruler; all people have the ability to listen to God and the Gospel and either say 'yes' or' no, not interested'. God made it that way; he did not programme Adam and Eve like robots, unable to do anything but worship and obey God because their internal software forced them to. God told them not to do something, but did not prevent them from disobeying him and making the wrong choice.
I believe that God gives unbelievers many opportunities to turn to him. Scripture says that all creation speaks of the glory of God; unbelievers may further be prompted to go to church/pick up a Christian book or the Bible/think about eternity after the death of a relative. All this prompting is from God - even if the unbeliever does not recognise it. But God does not force unbelievers to respond to him and take those opportunities. Yes, it is God's Spirit who gives them, but God has decided to ask for our co-operation and choice in the salvation process; he does not say "My Son died for you, you're going to accept me whether you want to or not". Even if they say 'no', I believe God still gives them opportunities to change their minds, and goes on doing so until they die; after which it's too late. In the OT, Ahab was a wicked king - and yet he repented after Elijah prophesied against him, 1 Kings 21:27-29.

The argument about choice seems to be that God has decided in advance that some people will not be saved and will not be allowed to choose him. Someone (it may have been you) recently wrote " 'all have sinned' and 'Christ died for sinners' does not equal 'Christ died for all sinners'." I disagree; and this person was not able to provide Scripture which says that Christ died for a few, or some percentage of, sinners.
Jesus told his disciples to love their enemies, and said that if we only love those who will love us back, that is not good; even pagans love people who love them back. Then he said we should be perfect as God is perfect, Matthew 5:44-48.
I don't believe that Jesus, who is God, would have told us to do something that his Father did not do or was incapable of doing. So God loves his enemies, those who hate him - which is everyone until they are born again. Christ died for sinners.

I think that once someone says 'yes' to Jesus, God gives them his Spirit, more of the desire to know, love and serve him and more faith.
If someone rejects God, I believe that he keeps giving them opportunities to say yes. If they never do, that is their choice, not because God made them with an inability to say 'yes' and follow him.

It is the idea that God creates some people with the plan that they will go to hell; that he has chosen destruction for them and that they could never be allowed, or able, to choose him - that is what I reject.
 
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Have you considered the logical extrapolation of people having totally free will concerning this?
The question isn't whether they can believe. Of course they can.
Have you considered the logical extrapolation of people
NOT having totally free will concerning this?

RE: the recent thread about this INABILITY.
How can they believe if they are spiritually blind, etc. etc. etc.?
 
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Mark Quayle

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The argument about choice seems to be that God has decided in advance that some people will not be saved and will not be allowed to choose him. Someone (it may have been you) recently wrote " 'all have sinned' and 'Christ died for sinners' does not equal 'Christ died for all sinners'." I disagree; and this person was not able to provide Scripture which says that Christ died for a few, or some percentage of, sinners.

Yes, it was me. "Did not provide Scripture" is not the same as "was not able to provide Scripture". Don't fool yourself. Meanwhile, logic itself, and understanding of language, shows that the two first statements accepted as fact do not add up to the 3rd statement. Simple math doesn't require scripture for proof.

And I don't think you need look far in Scripture for examples of God's particular love on particular people. I feel almost silly pointing that out. Read the whole Old Testament, just for starters. You think God gave pagans the same opportunity to know him as the Israelites? No, he gave them enough knowledge to realize he exists, and logic should have led them to find out about him, but unbelievers refuse, until he opens their eyes.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I am not saying, at all, that a person is able to act completely independently from God. Of course they can't.

So you are saying a person is able to act PARTIALLY independently of God. Think about it. What are you implying?

God's level or kind of activity is separate from ours only as the Creator is separate from his creation. This means that he is not us, nor are we him, certainly not physically, nor even spiritually. Our essence, I believe, is from him or of him; possibly it could even be said our essence is him --but that does not mean that we are his essence. We do not and cannot operate on his level or kind of being.

If God was to "withdraw his hand" we would not only cease to function, we would cease to be and even cease to have ever been. How then can we say that we are able to operate independently from him? To my mind it is hard enough to conceive how the Creator can make something other than himself, and even harder to understand how that something is capable of rebellion! Yet is is so, we do rebel, and we are the only ones, besides the angels, (as far as we have information on the subject), who are capable of rebelling. Sin is the most outrageous and unfitted fact in all creation. And so not only does it speak of the status of the devil as a power, but the power and love of God who provided for this economy in his creation. I think this is also the only thing that has caused God eternal damage, (as in "bruised heel" --a good read on this is CS Lewis space trilogy), but I digress.

I am attempting to paint the picture the best I can, to show that nothing in the end can logically nor by Scripture happen independent of God. To say "partly independent" is at best so vague as to be meaningless. I am not going to go so far as to say that God is part of sin, because Scripture is adamant about that not being the case. But I will say that God "causes all things whatsoever shall come to pass". It is my opinion that the most miniscule particle of matter or force/energy is of God's essence --and if so, how can it be that he is not involved in EVERYTHING physical and spiritual.

If my physical logic is sound, it could still be not so with spiritual creation, as I have extremely limited access to how that works. Yet, logically, I cannot see how ANYTHING can operate independently of God in at least some way. I can speculate that sin is a Non-Thing, and that works logically, far as I have studied the matter, but it smacks of excuse-making.

Anyhow, in the end of the matter, I find that if anything can operate in some way independently of God, it can only do so as, or in, sin. Sinners are capable of rejecting God, and apparently do so on their own, yet even there, I find cause-and-effect rules --God set all this in motion and has provided for the "existence" of sin, and nothing has happened by accident.

God has no plan B. He doesn't need one.

For him to foreknow is to forecause.

Enough for now. Gotta get to work. Thanks for the fun.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Have you considered the logical extrapolation of people
NOT having totally free will concerning this?

RE: the recent thread about this INABILITY.
How can they believe if they are spiritually blind, etc. etc. etc.?

So you attribute sovereignty to mere creation? Because, THAT, my friend, is totally free will, and none other can be.

Nor does God bow to mere chance, allowing it to rule.
 
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Der Alte

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My apologies. We seem to be talking past each other. I don't know what your point was then, in bringing up Jeremiah 13, nor in posting at all. Can you restate your point? Where do you stand on "free will" vs "predestination"?
I believe in freewill not predestination. I do not believe that God created mankind to be robotic, automatons who can only do what they have been programmed to do.
 
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So you attribute sovereignty to mere creation?
Because, THAT, my friend, is totally free will, and none other can be.
Nor does God bow to mere chance, allowing it to rule.
No idea what you're talking about ... none at all.
Do you have any idea what I'm talking about?
 
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Strong in Him

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So you are saying a person is able to act PARTIALLY independently of God. Think about it. What are you implying?

Everything we have, and are, comes from God. Everything.
We are made in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, and John says that there is nothing in the universe that was not made by him, John 1:3.
We have emotions, and can be happy, thankful, joyful. excited etc - because that is how God made us. Sadly our emotions have been affected by sin, so we can also be angry, sad, envious, frustrated etc; but we are emotional beings because God made us that way.
We have certain gifts and attributes - we can be creative, scientific, logical, precise, freethinkers, mathematical, musical, artistic etc etc - because God gave us those gifts, made us that way and in his image.
We have been given minds and the ability to reason, research, discover, debate and so on - because God gave us those abilities and we are made in his image.
We have also been given the ability to choose; whether minor things like new clothes, what to have for lunch, what colour car we want to buy, much bigger things like what job to have, and things that will affect our salvation and where we spend eternity. We have been made in the image of God; if he can choose, then we can too.

If God has chosen to give us the ability to choose, how can he do anything else but let us do so?
If God said, "repent, follow me and you will have eternal life, but if you do not repent you will perish", but the reality was that some people had been created so that they could NOT choose; how would it be fair that he pretended he was giving us a choice?
If Jesus said, "come to me", Matthew 11:28, but actually meant, "God has decided that some of you will NEVER be able to come to me"; how would it be fair to issue that invitation?

If we can choose anything, it is God who has given us that ability and chosen to do so.
We can choose to give it back to God and say, "Lord, I want to serve you and do what you want, and not what I want". If we make Jesus Lord of our lives, then I believe we give him permission to act as he sees best also. And there may be times when God keeps nudging people and presenting them with the Gospel until they feel they have no choice but to say yes; but i don't believe God will override someone's will and take away the ability to choose that he gave them in the first place.
 
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I believe in freewill not predestination. I do not believe that God created mankind to be robotic, automatons who can only do what they have been programmed to do.
So, do YOU have any idea what I've been talking about?

Cannot God choose who He will give the ability
to believe in Jesus and the foolish gospel?
Yea or Nay?
After being chosen, cannot people reject the call?
After being chosen, cannot people accept the call,
and then choose to NOT be faithful (i.e. obedient)?

You surely don't have to believe this scenario,
but do you understand it? ... Ditto for everyone.
 
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