The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

renniks

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If we sin, it's part of God's plan. David and Bathsheba were instrumental in producing Christ.
Hogwash. If I sit here today and decide to cheat on my wife, that is not part of God's plan... And no where in the Bible does it say that.
 
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Dave L

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Hogwash. If I sit here today and decide to cheat on my wife, that is not part of God's plan... And no where in the Bible does it say that.
You only react to the reasons God uses to control your free choices.
 
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Concord1968

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Hogwash. If I sit here today and decide to cheat on my wife, that is not part of God's plan... And no where in the Bible does it say that.
Look up the concept of "meticulous providence" and it's relationship to Calvinism. Once you understand that, you'll understand the reasoning that you're debating. Possibly helpful, nicht wahr?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Look up the concept of "meticulous providence" and it's relationship to Calvinism. Once you understand that, you'll understand the reasoning that you're debating. Possibly helpful, nicht wahr?
Not likely - understanding God's Word is nothing at all compared to nor helped by understanding (as if) from Calvinism contrary to God's Word.
 
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renniks

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Look up the concept of "meticulous providence" and it's relationship to Calvinism. Once you understand that, you'll understand the reasoning that you're debating. Possibly helpful, nicht wahr?
I already know what "meticulous providence"
Is supposed to be. ..it doesn't fit with scripture however... it's made to fit by warping what God actually said.
 
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fhansen

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True, but God controls our wills with the reasons we base our choices on.
I'm not sure I understand. Anyway, the historical understanding I'm aware of- maybe similar?- is that God foreknows our choices and "predestines" based on that- not strict determinism IOW.
 
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fhansen

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If we sin, it's part of God's plan. David and Bathsheba were instrumental in producing Christ.
That's a matter of making lemonade out of lemons. Their choice was still their own. Otherwise we'd be saying that it's totally impossible for God to create a being with free will, morally accountable for their actions.
 
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Dave L

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That's a matter of making lemonade out of lemons. Their choice was still their own. Otherwise we'd be saying that it's totally impossible for God to create a being with free will, morally accountable for their actions.
The reason people are responsible for their predestined sins is because they want to sin. But God sets the time and date and circumstances.
“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” Acts 2:23 (KJV 1900)
 
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Dave L

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I'm not sure I understand. Anyway, the historical understanding I'm aware of- maybe similar?- is that God foreknows our choices and "predestines" based on that- not strict determinism IOW.
No, then we control God. God takes worthless sinners and predestines them to fulfill his plan.
 
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fhansen

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The reason people are responsible for their predestined sins is because they want to sin. But God sets the time and date and circumstances.
“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” Acts 2:23 (KJV 1900)
But you said God creates evil. To use someone who chooses evil on their own is consistent with the model I'm speaking of. But if they have no choice but to choose evil then God is 100% responsible-and should send Himself to hell, not them.
 
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fhansen

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No, then we control God. God takes worthless sinners and predestines them to fulfill his plan.
We're mainly speaking of whether they're predestined to heaven or to hell. And if they're worthlessness is His doing, then tormenting them eternally for it would be a very strange thing for a good God to do. It would be as if you created an automaton that could maul and destroy the population of a city and then blame it and punish it forever for so doing.
 
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Dave L

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We're mainly speaking of whether they're predestined to heaven or to hell. And if they're worthlessness is His doing, then tormenting them eternally for it would be a very strange thing for a good God to do. It would be as if you created an automaton that could maul and destroy the population of a city and then blame it and punish it forever for so doing.
Paul says we fell in Adam whom God tested on our behalf.
 
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Albion

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But you said God creates evil. To use someone who chooses evil on their own is consistent with the model I'm speaking of. But if they have no choice but to choose evil then God is 100% responsible-and should send Himself to hell, not them.

Not really. Adam and Even were not created evil. But they allowed themselves to fall, the consequences of which were then visited upon all of us. We are the children of Adam and Eve and are, from birth, different from what the original humans were when God created them. It's all spelled out in Genesis.
 
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Dave L

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But you said God creates evil. To use someone who chooses evil on their own is consistent with the model I'm speaking of. But if they have no choice but to choose evil then God is 100% responsible-and should send Himself to hell, not them.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
 
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fhansen

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“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
So then, applying that verse to mean that God is the direct cause of every evil in the world, we'd be forced to agree that He'd be at least as blameworthy (actually more) as those He sends to hell for the evil He causes, right?
 
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Dave L

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So then, applying that verse to mean that God is the direct cause of every evil in the world, we'd be forced to agree that He'd be at least as blameworthy (actually more) as those He sends to hell for the evil He causes, right?
How can God be God and things be any different than they are? Did he fumble the ball somewhere? Satan got the best of him?
 
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fhansen

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Not really. Adam and Even were not created evil. But they allowed themselves to fall, the consequences of which were then visited upon all of us. We are the children of Adam and Eve and are, from birth, different from what the original humans were when God created them. It's all spelled out in Genesis.
Even if they were advantaged in grace, knowledge, whatever, such that they should be culpable, at least, for their sin, how does that absolve God from creating the rest of us incapable of refraining from sin-and then blaming and punishing us for being incapable of refraining from sin? How would that square with any kind of justice?
 
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fhansen

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How can God be God and things be any different than they are? Did he fumble the ball somewhere? Satan got the best of him?
Exactly, God judges us based on our choices-and the freedom with which they're made. As per His wisdom and will. He never fumbles-He lets us do that. The alternative is that man is a completely morally irresponsible beast, in which case eternal punishment would be like tormenting your pet dog eternally for biting the neighbor.
 
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