A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

CharismaticLady said:

Yes, I agree. But the conversion and baptism of the Holy Spirit is quite the experience!!!!!!!!! And the change in me that came from the new birth was amazing. Power over sin that I never experienced, and immediately!



I agree with what you are saying. But why should that guy who is living in the flesh with his false assurance believe anything different? That is why it is so dangerous. I've even seen Calvinists say that those to commit the works of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21 will only lose rewards, not salvation and heaven. That is why I would rather have proof that God is pleased with us, such as in 1 John 3:21-24. Answered prayer. You'll never guess who agrees with me. John MacArthur!!! But that was after 3 years; he first thought that we can pray to God, but He only answers us through His Word, not individually. See Oscarr, even old dogs can learn new tricks!

What did the OP say were the commandments of Christ for us? I must have missed it.

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He didn't say exactly what the commandments were that we should follow. He was pretty generalised in his comments.

Oscarr said:

He didn't say exactly what the commandments were that we should follow. He was pretty generalised in his comments.

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He told some of His disciples exactly (plus, the Jews understood much better than gentiles do - even the scribes and the pharisees who rejected Him know what He was saying) , then through the inspired Scripture He told disciples who love Him, who are called according to God's Purpose, all around the world, for the last 2000 years approximately.

BCsenior said:

Total insanity? ... or just deceived?

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People deceived by total insanity?

pharmakeia

Oscarr said:

The Scripture says, "Who shall lay any charge to God's elect?

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Exactly. I think the OP may be saying if people are listening to the teachers mentioned (Jude 4), and are living in sin, they are not Gods elect. Makes sense to me anyway.

Oscarr said:

He didn't say exactly what the commandments were that we should follow. He was pretty generalised in his comments.

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You may find a few things that look an awful lot like commandments among the scripture below, but either way, they should make clear there are sins that lead to damnation for those who have eyes to see. Also meaning, that goes along with what I said about some thinking they are the "elect" but may not be. As in the first scripture of his post, some are teaching sin is fine because God is gracious, but take a look at that scripture and see what the bible says about that attitude.

And what was that you said about the NEW Testament?...

Oscarr said:

There is a slight problem with your warning. It doesn't go along with the spirit of the New Testament.

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Take a look at what books the following comes from:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Zhen said:

um hello... may i know which part of the bible the following may be found:
‘The fact Christ said he could remove a Christian's name out of the book of life in Revelation shows salvation can be lost.’ ?

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Revelation 3:5"‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

There Christ claims he will not erase a Christian's name from the book of life, only if they overcome. Not just because they claim to believe in him. Those scriptures show two things:

1. First, that Christ can erase a Christian's name from the book of life. Because it would be a nonsensical statement for him to claim he will not do that to some Christians, if he never does that to any Christians.
2. Second, it shows Christ holds all Christians accountable for their own actions. He claimed they must overcome in order not to have their names erased (from the book of life).

Also see Revelation 22:19. "And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

Another poster makes an argument based on the fact those scriptures use the phrase tree of life instead of book of life. But we know that poster would not volunteer to have his share removed from the tree of life either, would he? Everyone here knows the answer to that. Therefore, his point about that difference is insignificant as it relates to the main point of our discussion. The discussion is considering whether a Christian can lose his salvation or not, isn't it? Therefore, whether Christ removes a name from what scriptures call the book of life or the tree of life, it's clear they lose their salvation if he does either. Christ was not there offering idle threats. He was seriously warning Christians whose names were written in those places what could happen, if they choose to act as if they are not accountable to Christ and his Father.

That type of argument the poster presented shows the lengths some who claim Christianity go to, in attempts to prove points the whole Bible teach against. The whole Bible shows every creature intelligent enough to comprehend there is a God is accountable to him. And again, we have to wonder why some who claim to be Christian argue against that point. Why? Is it they desire to live lives practicing sin? See Matthew chapter 7.

Now hopefully you are not asking for these exact words, "‘The fact Christ said he could remove a Christian's name out of the book of life in Revelation shows salvation can be lost.’ ?" Because if you are I can't help you.

Oscarr said:

You must be surrounded by more hypocrites in your area than I have. Over the last 50 years I have been a believer, I have met very few who have not been genuinely converted believers who love Christ and put Him first in their lives.

So you are preaching to the choir if you are preaching that to me!

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I just quoted Jesus and an Inspired Epistle. If you think Jesus is preaching to a choir, you have to take that up with Him.

Kenny'sID said:

Exactly. I think the OP may be saying if people are listening to the teachers mentioned (Jude 4), and are living in sin, they are not Gods elect. Makes sense to me anyway.



You may find a few things that look an awful lot like commandments among the scripture below, but either way, they should make clear there are sins that lead to damnation for those who have eyes to see. Also meaning, that goes along with what I said about some thinking they are the "elect" but may not be. As in the first scripture of his post, some are teaching sin is fine because God is gracious, but take a look at that scripture and see what the bible says about that attitude.

And what was that you said about the NEW Testament?...



Take a look at what books the following comes from:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

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Although these verses are entirely correct in their proper context, we must examine who Paul wrote to, why he wrote them, and how his readers understood what he wrote.

It is possible to cobble a group of references together to imply that genuine believers can and do the works of the flesh while at the same time professing faith in Christ.

In the references quoted, Paul is comparing the vast difference in conduct between the unconverted and the converted. In Galatians, he is showing that walking in the Spirit is through faith alone in Christ. He goes to great lengths to oppose the teaching of the Judaizers that one must follow the Mosaic Law in order to be saved.

In Ephesians Paul says what they were before they were converted, but they were definitely not like that now.

Jesus' parable concerning the wheat and the tares shows that there is a mixture of genuine believers and hypocrites in the profession of Christiaity. But it is not for us to try and weed out the hypocrites because genuine believers might be harmed in the process.

It is like a lynch mob who grab someone they believe is guilty of the the crime and hang him from the nearest tree, and then find out afterward that the person was innocent. It is sad that we have spiritual 'lynching mobs" in our churches whose mission is to weed out the false teachers and hypocrites. The problem is that they "hang" more innocent folk than guilty ones.

setst777 said:

I just quoted Jesus and an Inspired Epistle. If you think Jesus is preaching to a choir, you have to take that up with Him.

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Yes, I will take it up my Defence Lawyer who died and shed His blood for me on the cross so that I have become the righteousness of God in Him.

My point is that any person other than Christ Himself who sets him or herself up as a judge of others is promoting him or herself above Christ Himself and trying to be the prosecuting Holy Spirit when he or she is nothing of the sort.

CharismaticLady said:

Oscarr!!! That is not contextually scriptural. What is the subject of these verses?

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

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Jesus is speaking to unconverted Jews, and preaching the gospel to them. If He is speaking to His disciples, He is training them to know what the true gospel consists of.

Free from what again? Guilt, shame, penalty, condemnation? NO! FREE FROM SIN!!!

What Reformationists say is we are FREE TO SIN!!! Sin without guilt. Sin without shame. Sin without penalty. Sin without condemnation. RUBBISH!!!

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Who told you that Reformationists teach that believers can willingly and willfully sin? They believe that sinners need to be convicted of their sin, which shows them that they need a Saviour, and so the gospel is good news to them. They are of all believers most desiring of holiness and they work harder at it. They would be the first to say that someone who professes Christianity and is still involved in the works of the flesh is an unconverted hypocrite and not a sincere believer! I have read more than enough Puritan Christian literature to know that!!!

The very name of "Puritan" describes the purity of life that every one of them were very particular about living a pure life before God. They were known, and still are, for their exemplary standard of personal holiness. So you're barking up the wrong tree there!

Yes, our bodies will die because of Adam's sin. But as Christians we will get a new body. But our nature is born again NOW. When we are born again, we are partakers of the divine nature, and are freed from any desire to sin. That is now and forever. Revelation 22:11

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The Reformists and Puritans were very aware that they were living in mortal bodies, and because of that, they were extremely careful to ensure that their flesh was brought under subjection to the Holy Spirit. The characteristic nature of Calvinist Puritans is that they hated sin, as to modern Calvinists, and they work a lot harder to ensure that they don't willfully sin. They make no excuse for their failures and shortcomings, but are not condemned by them, because salvation comes by the grace of God through faith alone in Christ, and sanctification is something that is diligently worked at with the goal of absolute perfection in holiness; such goal will be finally reached when they are resurrected in glory.

So you cannot automatically assume that because a believer is a Calvinist who believes in OSAS, that he willingly continues in sin because of it. For the vast majority of Reformed and Calvinists, the absolute opposite is the case.

In fact, most Reformists and Calvinists were persecuted because they were so strict about personal holiness.

So anyone who professes to be a Calvinist and willingly sins in the belief that there is no condemnation for him, is a hypocrite and not a true Calvinist.

topher694 said:

The best way to expose what is false is not by ranting about it. The best way to expose what is false is by demonstrating what is true.

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Jesus exposed what was false...It got him crucified.

The best way to expose what is false is to have studied and learned sound doctrine for many years... And, then be well prepared to not expect everyone to believe you.

Oscarr said:

Yes, I will take it up my Defence Lawyer who died and shed His blood for me on the cross so that I have become the righteousness of God in Him.

My point is that any person other than Christ Himself who sets him or herself up as a judge of others is promoting him or herself above Christ Himself and trying to be the prosecuting Holy Spirit when he or she is nothing of the sort.

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One should not confuse judging what one believes, with judging you personally.

Some can not separate the two, and end up feeling someone is judging them as the other is attempt to refute something that is rightly, or wrongly, believed.

Yet, we who are spiritual are also to judge all things. That does not correlate with meaning condemnation. Now? If a person is being stubborn and closed minded? You do not judge that?

genez said:

Jesus exposed what was false...It got him crucified.

The best way to expose what is false is to have studied and learned sound doctrine for many years... And, then be well prepared to not expect everyone to believe you.

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Um, Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (that's a kind of important part you know) demonstrated the truth of who He was for everyone for all time. Through it He won victory over death, hell and the grave. Through it those who believe can go boldly before the throne of grace and be empowered by that grace to overcome the things of the world. I'd say that's the ultimate argument FOR what I am saying not against it.

Studying and learning is important and great, but Jesus didn't say to let people know how much you've studied the light and the debate them about it. He said let your light shine. Don't hide it. He didn't say they will know you by your fruit theology. He said they will know you by your fruit, which is demonstrated, not talked about. The world has more than enough people who think they are right about everything who are talking about how right they are, and not nearly enough people demonstrating it.

When we demonstrate what is right and others see it, it opens hearts and doors to meaningful conversations where our studying can now be put to use.

Oscarr said:

Jesus is speaking to unconverted Jews, and preaching the gospel to them. If He is speaking to His disciples, He is training them to know what the true gospel consists of.


Who told you that Reformationists teach that believers can willingly and willfully sin? They believe that sinners need to be convicted of their sin, which shows them that they need a Saviour, and so the gospel is good news to them. They are of all believers most desiring of holiness and they work harder at it. They would be the first to say that someone who professes Christianity and is still involved in the works of the flesh is an unconverted hypocrite and not a sincere believer! I have read more than enough Puritan Christian literature to know that!!!

The very name of "Puritan" describes the purity of life that every one of them were very particular about living a pure life before God. They were known, and still are, for their exemplary standard of personal holiness. So you're barking up the wrong tree there!


The Reformists and Puritans were very aware that they were living in mortal bodies, and because of that, they were extremely careful to ensure that their flesh was brought under subjection to the Holy Spirit. The characteristic nature of Calvinist Puritans is that they hated sin, as to modern Calvinists, and they work a lot harder to ensure that they don't willfully sin. They make no excuse for their failures and shortcomings, but are not condemned by them, because salvation comes by the grace of God through faith alone in Christ, and sanctification is something that is diligently worked at with the goal of absolute perfection in holiness; such goal will be finally reached when they are resurrected in glory.

So you cannot automatically assume that because a believer is a Calvinist who believes in OSAS, that he willingly continues in sin because of it. For the vast majority of Reformed and Calvinists, the absolute opposite is the case.

In fact, most Reformists and Calvinists were persecuted because they were so strict about personal holiness.

So anyone who professes to be a Calvinist and willingly sins in the belief that there is no condemnation for him, is a hypocrite and not a true Calvinist.

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I am talking about statements like this: "Even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, it would not separate us from God." In other words, OSAS.

Ricky M said:

Too, there's the issue of consequences.

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It's always wise to be "prepared for the worst" so to speak. Yet what someone is convicted about from the Scripture; would be inconsistent to question all the time because as one continues to study, they will either confirm what they first formulated as true, or come to a different conclusion. The "different conclusion" is usually a more of "adding on to understanding" than it is a "changing of mind".

Ricky M said:

That's when people will start questioning their faith, when they find things they just knew they knew are actually not what they thought they knew. Because they refused to consider that, being human, they might just be wrong.

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The wise always know that they don't know everything and humility is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Yet to be cautious about "questioning everything" is also prudent because in certain major doctrines, "opposing views" changes one's entire concept of God.

You had used the "once saved always saved" example. And I suppose how you define that might answer this question.

There's a difference between the Scriptural foundation that salvation is secure and one not taking seriously the command to examine themselves. I know I can never loose my salvation; but I also know that means I can't "live how ever I want". There are undeniable consequences upon the life of the sinner of being "woked" (and indwelled) by the Holy Ghost.

Now the flip side of this is "I can loose my salvation" because God.... (fill in the blank); which actually causes one to question God as opposed to questioning themselves. The belief that God will cast me away if I don't live up to His expectations inevitably makes your redemption a works gospel.

It's a good thing if someone wants to please God; that's not the issue. It's a heretical thing though when someone believes they have to continually show forth themselves to be worthy of redemption (because they are afraid of losing it based on what they think of God). There's no grace in that belief. Obedience is a consequence of salvation, not a prerequisite too and grace is not dependent on us not screwing up. The evidence of salvation when one does screw up is repentance. It's part of the process. Expect to "screw up"; because we are continually confronted with sin in our lives that we had not the sensitivity to prior to even know it was there.

Now one can be thoroughly convinced of God's sovereignty in redemption and that the Scripture is true when it says you can't lose your salvation. Yet they can still question themselves as to whether or not saving faith actually lives within them. That's a different scenario though than "God did His part; now this is on me to maintain." Again that inevitably turns one's idea of salvation into a works gospel.

So, it's not wrong to question; it's a question of why your questioning though. Are you questioning based on an understanding of self; or faulty beliefs about God? If your view of the human condition is too high; than your view of God is too low. Only when one understands the full weight of what it means to be dead in trespass and sin; does God's grace really mean anything.

This is what all those admonitions in the epistles, about looking at your lifestyle mean. Does your life show forth redeeming faith by it being changed? If the answer to that is "no"; than it is absolutely right to question whether or not you have salvation. The question of "am I saved" is still raised; it's just raised for a different reason.

Very wise.

With the caveat that these days people will seek out information that confirms their beliefs, with no interest in considering an opposing argument.

And terminology is important in osas. 'Losing', 'cast away', and terms like that are not correct. You cannot lose salvation. God will never cast you away. Going apostate, ceasing to believe and confessing that, making that conscious decision is the only way a believer can walk away. Like you said, when it comes to salvation, works are evidentiary, not causative.

The Righterzpen said:

they will either confirm what they first formulated as true, or come to a different conclusion. The "different conclusion" is usually a more of "adding on to understanding" than it is a "changing of mind".

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How true! That is what happens to me too.

topher694 said:

Studying and learning is important and great, but Jesus didn't say to let people know how much you've studied the light and the debate them about it. He said let your light shine. Don't hide it. He didn't say they will know you by your fruit theology.

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Take away the little Bible you apparently know? Then where are those batteries for your light?

Many have been programmed into anti anti intellectualism, because over the years intellectuals with cold hearts have grabbed the helm and destroyed the love for knowledge of God's Word.




Knowledge and insight if the food for God's love! Christianity has been carefully dumbed down by the enemy over the years..... Like our public school system has been doing as well. Why?

Because? Jesus said only the Truth will make us free! Not some shining emotional appeal.

Every problem we face today that seems there is no answer in sight is festering because too many Christians avoid knowledge of God's Word for the solutions. Prayer will bring the knowledge that is needed. Not God parting the sea for what requires wisdom to stabilize lives.

genez said:

Take away the little Bible you apparently know? Then where are those batteries for your light?

Many have been programmed into anti anti intellectualism, because over the years intellectuals with cold hearts have grabbed the helm and destroyed the love for knowledge of God's Word.

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound
more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."
Philipns 1:9​

Knowledge and insight if the food for God's love! Christianity has been carefully dumbed down by the enemy over the years..... Like our public school system has been doing as well. Why?

Because? Jesus said only the Truth will make us free! Not some shining emotional appeal.

"My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. Hos 4:6​

Every problem we face today that seems there is no answer in sight is festering because too many Christians avoid knowledge of God's Word for the solutions. Prayer will bring the knowledge that is needed. Not God parting the sea for what requires wisdom to stabilize lives.

"My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. Hos 4:6


....emotionalism vs spirituality..​

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Who said anything about taking the Bible knowledge away? I said it was great. You seem intent on making an issue out of nothing. That is definitely not the type of behavior you will learn through study, that is emotional stable or spiritually sound.

Oscarr said:

Although these verses are entirely correct in their proper context, we must examine who Paul wrote to, why he wrote them, and how his readers understood what he wrote.

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I'm a reader, and I understand perfectly what he wrote

Oscarr said:

In the references quoted, Paul is comparing the vast difference in conduct between the unconverted and the converted.

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And? Does that mean we can do those things now that we are converted because Christ paid for it? I honestly don't see your point.

Oscarr said:

In Ephesians Paul says what they were before they were converted, but they were definitely not like that now.

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I know. So you do understand they shouldn't be like that or else, the very reason they chose not to be like that now? Same as the prior comment, does that somehow mean to you sin is not a problem unto salvation? I mean why is it you think Paul is even commenting on that?

Oscarr said:

It is like a lynch mob who grab someone they believe is guilty of the the crime and hang him from the nearest tree, and then find out afterward that the person was innocent. It is sad that we have spiritual 'lynching mobs" in our churches whose mission is to weed out the false teachers and hypocrites. The problem is that they "hang" more innocent folk than guilty ones.

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No idea where that came from or where it's headed.

Mouse is dying, I'll be back with the rest.