America is the Best, Most Free, and Most Prosperous Country on Earth: Change My Mind

Chris V++ · Nov 15, 2019

98cwitr said:
As I was told this was a debatable topic, I figured I'd post here to let the debate ensue.

Definitions:

Best: most productive of good : offering or producing the greatest advantage, utility, or satisfaction

Free: enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another

Prosperous: marked by success or economic well-being

And we do have our NASA. Nuff said.

pitabread · Nov 15, 2019

Pedra said:
The USA has been blessed to spread the gospel, to be a haven for Christians & to become the superpower to protect God's land of Israel.

That's a terrifying belief.

usexpat97 · Nov 15, 2019

pitabread said:
I'm aware of Germany's laws re: the Holocaust and Nazism. Given that country's history, it's not overly surprising though.

Do you believe that automatically precludes them from having freedom of speech (esp. considering almost every country has some sort of restrictions thereof)?

First off, yes. Freedom of speech means you can question mainstream historical narratives, and you are not limited in which political party in government you support, or why.

Second, that was not meant to be an all-inclusive list of everything you are not allowed to say.

And by the way, you will not hear me say the US has free speech, either. Nor Canada.

Paidiske · Nov 15, 2019

98cwitr said:
If the churches, synagogues, and mosques are willing to fit their medical bills and will openly appeal for their entry, then so be it. I just know that I pay $700 per month (myself and 3 dependents) in health insurance, on top of $350/mo in medicare that I cannot leverage, on top of $85/visit copays for myself and my wife, on top of the $1500/mo I pay in federal income tax. So you tell me why tax dollars should fund non-citizen healthcare...and tell me why tax dollars should fund anyone's healthcare. Look at St. Jude's....that's how healthcare should be funded for those who can't afford it.

Ok, so that's one data point.

In Australia, our taxes cover most everything. You can choose to have private health insurance (and some do) but if you don't, you don't miss out on any essential care.

If I had had my daughter in the public system here, pre- and post-natal care, the delivery and hospital stay, would have cost me nothing. Every doctor's visit for her would cost me nothing. The process of getting her diagnosed with autism (long and with many appointments), would still have cost me something, but once diagnosed, her early intervention, speech therapy, occupational therapy, and other therapies are all covered by the government.

Our family chooses to have private health insurance and we pay less than half what you do, we do not pay for Medicare (that's what tax is for), and most of our medical expenses have no copay.

As I always end up asking in these threads, if Australia can do it, why can't America? You certainly have the population base to make it sustainable. But instead you let private companies fleece you all and call it freedom!

Pedra said:
The USA has been blessed to spread the gospel, to be a haven for Christians & to become the superpower to protect God's land of Israel.

That anybody actually believes this is truly frightening to me. Especially the last part, which would seem to provide a divine mandate for war in particular circumstances.

rjs330 · Nov 15, 2019

pitabread said:
Curious, why do you think that?

Per the 2018 Human Freedom Index, Germany scored a 9.4/10 when it comes to freedom of expression and information.

Conversely the United States scored a 9.2/10.

And what exactly do they say is less free in the US than Germany?

pitabread · Nov 15, 2019

rjs330 said:
And what exactly do they say is less free in the US than Germany?

You can see individual country scores here: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org...eedom-index-2018-country-profiles-revised.pdf

The U.S. scored lower on the Press Killed and Political Pressure, Control of Media categories.

rjs330 · Nov 15, 2019

Paidiske said:
Ok, so that's one data point.

In Australia, our taxes cover most everything. You can choose to have private health insurance (and some do) but if you don't, you don't miss out on any essential care.

If I had had my daughter in the public system here, pre- and post-natal care, the delivery and hospital stay, would have cost me nothing. Every doctor's visit for her would cost me nothing. The process of getting her diagnosed with autism (long and with many appointments), would still have cost me something, but once diagnosed, her early intervention, speech therapy, occupational therapy, and other therapies are all covered by the government.

Our family chooses to have private health insurance and we pay less than half what you do, we do not pay for Medicare (that's what tax is for), and most of our medical expenses have no copay.

As I always end up asking in these threads, if Australia can do it, why can't America? You certainly have the population base to make it sustainable. But instead you let private companies fleece you all and call it freedom!

That anybody actually believes this is truly frightening to me. Especially the last part, which would seem to provide a divine mandate for war in particular circumstances.

I don't think that's the particular issue. You see what Americans fear is an all controlling state over our healthcare and problems we see in other countries that have it. And that is what seems to be all that's offered by the left these days. There are all kinds of different options for this issue. But it seems that no one is willing to explore them. It's either status quo or total single payer.

It is frustrating.

rjs330 · Nov 15, 2019

pitabread said:
You can see individual country scores here: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org...eedom-index-2018-country-profiles-revised.pdf

The U.S. scored lower on the Press Killed and Political Pressure, Control of Media categories.

Press killed by whom? It seems the political pressure these days is all the press pressuring the people with the narratives they want to put forth. Who's preventing the media from printing or saying what they want? I'm not buying it.

pitabread · Nov 15, 2019

rjs330 said:
Press killed by whom? It seems the political pressure these days is all the press pressuring the people with the narratives they want to put forth. Who's preventing the media from printing or saying what they want? I'm not buying it.

I'm just pointing out what was reported. If you want more, you can always visit the following: Human Freedom Index

I'd also suspect that this incident probably factored into the score for 2018: Capital Gazette shooting - Wikipedia

Chris V++ · Nov 15, 2019

Paidiske said:
That anybody actually believes this is truly frightening to me. Especially the last part, which would seem to provide a divine mandate for war in particular circumstances.

There is some passages in Revelation that seem to suggest it. A lot of pastors preach it, or something similar to it. And in the end the thinking is that even the USA will turn our backs on Israel. They teach the end days prophetic clock started when Israel regained the Promised land, which has to be fulfillment of prophesy - how can it not be? What are the odds?

Ada Lovelace · Nov 15, 2019

Go Braves said:
Would love to see that video. If you don't mind sharing it. If you do mind, perfectly understood.

I'll pray for the folks in Cali before hitting the sack tonight. Y'all have been through an awful lot with the wildfires. Anniversary of last year's shootings. Now this school shooting. So much trauma!

This is the picture of Gracie Anne Muehlberger, who had turned 15 years last month and was shot to death yesterday morning at her high school in America, that her father shared to the Go Fund Me page the family has established to seek assistance in ways of memorializing her. I pray the family doesn't have their grief exacerbated by steep medical costs. She died at Henry Mayo Newhall Hospital in Valencia.

Our mission is to find a way to memorialize our baby girl - Gracie Anne Muehlberger. We are in discussions about the best way to do this.

From the parents of Gracie Muehlberger

"It is with the most unexplainable brokenness that we share our Gracie went to be with Jesus on Thursday morning.

Our vivacious, funny, loyal, light of our lives, Cinderella, the daughter we always dreamed to have, fiercely strong and lover of all things fashionable - was our best friend. She is going to be missed more than words will ever be able to express.

We deeply appreciate the outpouring of love and support from family, friends, colleagues, our church and the whole Santa Clarita and national communities. We are grieving and navigating this pain moment by moment. Thank you for respecting our privacy at this time.

“We will love you always Sweetpea!”

The boy who murdered her with a gun did so on his 16th birthday.

My video isn't particularly special; it's a rough choreography session to quickly put together a dance for a fundraiser for the victims of the Parkland shooting massacre on Valentine's Day 2018, and not of the fundraiser itself (we didn't film that). But the song is:

pitabread · Nov 15, 2019

Out of curiosity, has those arguing that the U.S. is "best", "most free", etc, provided any data in support of those views?

Are there any indices where the U.S. does score above other countries in those respects? Because I've yet to find any.

Or another way to look at it, is why the U.S. does not score higher on such indices if it really were the "best", "most free", etc?

Paidiske · Nov 15, 2019

rjs330 said:
I don't think that's the particular issue. You see what Americans fear is an all controlling state over our healthcare and problems we see in other countries that have it. And that is what seems to be all that's offered by the left these days. There are all kinds of different options for this issue. But it seems that no one is willing to explore them. It's either status quo or total single payer.

I don't understand. The government funds our healthcare, but my healthcare decisions are made by me in consultation with my healthcare professionals. What government control?

Seems to me there is more of a control issue with your system, where for-profit companies decide what they will and won't cover.

Chris V++ said:
There is some passages in Revelation that seem to suggest it. A lot of pastors preach it, or something similar to it. And in the end the thinking is that even the USA will turn our backs on Israel. They teach the end days prophetic clock started when Israel regained the Promised land, which has to be fulfillment of prophesy - how can it not be? What are the odds?

a) The idea that Revelation has anything to say about any modern secular country in particular is a complete misreading of Revelation.
b) Yes, I'm aware that there are some whacky ideas out there about end times stuff, but that shouldn't be the basis for anyone's international politics.
c) Even if the modern state of Israel is a fulfilment of prophecy (which is debatable), the idea that America has some special role as its superpower protector really is truly frightening. How far will that go? Will you nuke other countries because Israel? And then claim that's what God wanted?

SimplyMe · Nov 15, 2019

rjs330 said:
Here's some.
Conservative Views on Health Care Reform

And where are the bills that they have proposed, much less attempted to pass (particularly when they had both houses of Congress and the Presidency)?

Chris V++ · Nov 15, 2019

Paidiske said:
I don't understand. The government funds our healthcare, but my healthcare decisions are made by me in consultation with my healthcare professionals. What government control?

Seems to me there is more of a control issue with your system, where for-profit companies decide what they will and won't cover.

a) The idea that Revelation has anything to say about any modern secular country in particular is a complete misreading of Revelation.
b) Yes, I'm aware that there are some whacky ideas out there about end times stuff, but that shouldn't be the basis for anyone's international politics.
c) Even if the modern state of Israel is a fulfilment of prophecy (which is debatable), the idea that America has some special role as its superpower protector really is truly frightening. How far will that go? Will you nuke other countries because Israel? And then claim that's what God wanted?

This site concisely summarizes some views on Israel and quotes scripture as support.
Israel In Bible Prophecy - Sar-El Tours & Conferences

Sorry but I just can't believe God's involvement in the restoration of Israel is debatable given that He said He would do it.

Paidiske · Nov 15, 2019

Chris V++ said:
Sorry but I just can't believe God's involvement in the restoration of Israel is debatable given that He said He would do it.

The question is, is the modern state of Israel what God promised he would do? Or is it something else, with the fulfilment of God's promise yet in the future? There's a good case to be made for that.

Either way, the idea that America would seek to use eschatology as justification for warfare is hideous.

JackRT · Nov 15, 2019

SimplyMe said:
And where are the bills that they have proposed, much less attempted to pass (particularly when they had both houses of Congress and the Presidency)?

I find it puzzling that what the republicans so contemptuously call Obama Care is actually a republican plan proposed by Mitt Romney.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 15, 2019

Paidiske said:
The question is, is the modern state of Israel what God promised he would do? Or is it something else, with the fulfilment of God's promise yet in the future? There's a good case to be made for that.

Either way, the idea that America would seek to use eschatology as justification for warfare is hideous.

You would be surprised what can be used to justify war, but then, war is good for business and the economy.

Ada Lovelace · Nov 15, 2019

JackRT said:
I find it puzzling that what the republicans so contemptuously call Obama Care is actually a republican plan proposed by Mitt Romney.

To some noses roses only smell as sweet if their name meets their approval.

Chris V++ · Nov 15, 2019

Paidiske said:
The question is, is the modern state of Israel what God promised he would do?

There wern't too many other Jews left to consolidate. So God intends to gather the Jews from the four corners of the Earth, but just not this particular group of Jews? .

Paidiske said:
Either way, the idea that America would seek to use eschatology as justification for warfare is hideous.

So if God restored Israel, the only democracy in the region, we should be neutral when the likes of Iran threaten to 'wipe Israel off the map.' because 'eschatology as justification for warfare is hideous.'

Paidiske · Nov 15, 2019

Chris V++ said:
There wern't too many other Jews left to consolidate. So God intends to gather the Jews from the four corners of the Earth, but just not this particular group of Jews? .

My question is more, is the modern state of Israel functioning as the restoration of God's covenant people? I would say not. If we look at the treatment of the Palestinians, we can see that justice, mercy and peace are considerably lacking here.

Chris V++ said:
So if God restored Israel, the only democracy in the region, we should be neutral when the likes of Iran threaten to 'wipe Israel off the map.' because 'eschatology as justification for warfare is hideous.'

I'm not saying they shouldn't be your allies. But I'm concerned about theology-as-justification-for-warfare, of course. The idea that God wants us to kill others is, quite frankly, blasphemous.

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